Speaking of Israel...

[HoreTore]

Not going to rip up open wounds, too early for that. I got the pics but not going to be at the wrong side of the argument right now

How on earth is a picture of Jonas Gahr Støre shaking hands with a PLO-leader going to "rip up open wounds"...?

Do you really think it's something that is kept secret...?

[Fragony]

How on earth is a picture of Jonas Gahr Støre shaking hands with a PLO-leader going to "rip up open wounds"...?

Do you really think it's something that is kept secret...?

Well these camps on that island where that massacre took place was kinda creepy. And that is all I want to say about it.

[HoreTore]

Well these camps on that island where that massacre took place was kinda creepy. And that is all I want to say about it.

The Utøya camp won't stop because of what happened in 2011. That would be silly. Things at Utøya are back to normal, with things going on like they always have. Except for a ceremony on the 22nd, nothing has changed.

[Papewaio]

The Utøya camp won't stop because of what happened in 2011. That would be silly. Things at Utøya are back to normal, with things going on like they always have. Except for a ceremony on the 22nd, nothing has changed.

Because the best way to deal with terrorism is not to be terrorized and hence stiff upper lip and keep moving forward. Sure put in remembrances and worthwhile security measures. But otherwise pursue happiness and don't let the terrorists dictate your lifestyle.

[Fragony]

The Utøya camp won't stop because of what happened in 2011. That would be silly. Things at Utøya are back to normal, with things going on like they always have. Except for a ceremony on the 22nd, nothing has changed.

Was kinda hinting at the group activities here, the people who visited. What happened in 2011 isn't creepy it's horrifying.

Full stop now

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well these camps on that island where that massacre took place was kinda creepy. And that is all I want to say about it.

They do look a bit like Soviet "summer camps", but then I spent my summers learning how to kill people with machine guns - which is much more "creepy" in retrospect.

The Utøya camp won't stop because of what happened in 2011. That would be silly. Things at Utøya are back to normal, with things going on like they always have. Except for a ceremony on the 22nd, nothing has changed.

Personally - I would tear the camp down and leave it fallow for a century - much better than the daft plan to cut a hole in a cliff.

[HoreTore]

Because the best way to deal with terrorism is not to be terrorized and hence stiff upper lip and keep moving forward. Sure put in remembrances and worthwhile security measures. But otherwise pursue happiness and don't let the terrorists dictate your lifestyle.

Indeed.

Was kinda hinting at the group activities here, the people who visited. What happened in 2011 isn't creepy it's horrifying.

Full stop now

The group activities are the same now as they were before. As they should be. Political debates, lectures, playtime and invited guests.

They do look a bit like Soviet "summer camps", but then I spent my summers learning how to kill people with machine guns - which is much more "creepy" in retrospect.

It's a lot less creepy than you think it is, and that may be because you'v never attended one. Basically it's a week's gathering with the people you work with on a daily basis the rest of the year.

Do not forget that the majority of the attendants are active politicians, several of them elected members of local governments. It's not a random bunch of kids who gets indoctrinated, it's a teambuilding excercise for young professionals.

Personally - I would tear the camp down and leave it fallow for a century - much better than the daft plan to cut a hole in a cliff.

The hole is actually not on the island, it's on the mainland. Further, it is the express wish of the survivors to continue the camp as normal. It would be a lot dafter to disregard the opinions of the survivors IMO.

[Fragony]

They do look a bit like Soviet "summer camps", but then I spent my summers learning how to kill people with machine guns - which is much more "creepy" in retrospect.

Fair enough I guess.

[Fragony]

And again the ceasefire is broken by the Palestinians. Just like every other time. A ceasefire is nothing more than just enough time to get more rockets.

[Fragony]

And again the ceasefire is broken by the Palestinians. Just like every other time. A ceasefire is nothing more than just enough time to get more rockets.

Hey I can make this post again. Once again the need to kill was too strong, ceasefire once again broken by people with culture.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They are both conflict-soaked cultures. When personal identity is defined, in part, by your being an enemy of "those people," it is difficult to parse the particulars and generate meaningful agreements.

[Papewaio]

Hey I can make this post again. Once again the need to kill was too strong, ceasefire once again broken by people with culture.

Fragony do the Jewish people not have culture?

Name the largest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.

[Fragony]

Fragony do the Jewish people not have culture?

Name the largest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.

Worst is probably the schoolbus

But again 200 missiles fired yesterday

[Pannonian]

Worst is probably the schoolbus

But again 200 missiles fired yesterday

91 people were killed in the biggest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.

[Fragony]

91 people were killed in the biggest terrorist attack in Israel/Palestine.

Could be, but attacking a schoolbus is sooooo cynical

[Pannonian]

Could be, but attacking a schoolbus is sooooo cynical

And there is that redefinition of boundaries to excuse one side and make one side look bad and the other good. BTW Frag, what do you think Israel will look like if all the leftists, ie. liberals and socialists, moved out of there?

[Fragony]

And there is that redefinition of boundaries to excuse one side and make one side look bad and the other good. BTW Frag, what do you think Israel will look like if all the leftists, ie. liberals and socialists, moved out of there?

That is a completily valid point of course, but also something that can easily waved for being an distraction of what is really going on. Hamas does not want peace, how many peace-have been broken by now? 10 or so.

[Pannonian]

That is a completily valid point of course, but also something that can easily waved for being an distraction of what is really going on. Hamas does not want peace, how many peace-have been broken by now? 10 or so.

And where's the evidence that Israel wants peace? Neither side wants peace. Both sides are as bad as each other, and if I had my way, anyone who goes anywhere near that region gets disowned by their native country, whether they be Muslim, Jewish, or Martian. But you're the one who keeps excusing Israel.

[Fragony]

And where's the evidence that Israel wants peace?

At least 10 offered cease-fires being broken is kinda an indication on who does what

[Pannonian]

At least 10 offered cease-fires being broken is kinda an indication on who does what

And the landgrab in the West Bank? AFAIK territorial disputes is the most common, and usually considered the most deserving, cause of war in history, with the people whose land is being taken considered to have an automatic right to expel the invader by whatever means possible. What is your opinion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? What are the rights of the West Bank Palestinian authorities wrt these settlements in your view?

[Fragony]

And the landgrab in the West Bank? AFAIK territorial disputes is the most common, and usually considered the most deserving, cause of war in history, with the people whose land is being taken considered to have an automatic right to expel the invader by whatever means possible. What is your opinion of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank? What are the rights of the West Bank Palestinian authorities wrt these settlements in your view?

Settlements should stop I'd say but the west bank isn't Gaza. Both are Israeli territory in my opinion but that's just my opinion, was taken in a war they never started.

[HoreTore]

Settlements should stop I'd say but the west bank isn't Gaza. Both are Israeli territory in my opinion but that's just my opinion, was taken in a war they never started.

You are correct that Gaza is not the west bank.

The West Bank has kept at peace with Israel for years.
Gaza has been at war with Israel several times in the last years.

The results?

Tons of settlements in the West Bank.
No settlements in Gaza.


An interesting way of rewarding peace.

[Kralizec]

Both are Israeli territory in my opinion but that's just my opinion, was taken in a war they never started.

If we were talking about Israel in general that would be debatable. Gaza and the West bank, however, were grabbed in the six-day war which opened with an Israeli first strike.

[Fragony]

You are correct that Gaza is not the west bank.

The West Bank has kept at peace with Israel for years.
Gaza has been at war with Israel several times in the last years.

The results?

Tons of settlements in the West Bank.
No settlements in Gaza.


An interesting way of rewarding peace.

I know it's unfair. But lets be honest the majority isn't even from there, mostly refugees from the civil war in Libanon. Not building settlements would be a courtisy I would apreciate.

[HoreTore]

But lets be honest the majority isn't even from there

I fully agree that the vast majority of the settlers are not from there.

[Fragony]

If we were talking about Israel in general that would be debatable. Gaza and the West bank, however, were grabbed in the six-day war which opened with an Israeli first strike.

I didn't know that, but it's hard to consider something a first strike when war has been declared.

[Fragony]

I fully agree that the vast majority of the settlers are not from there.

So what. It's perfectly possible to have an opinion on Hamas without even thinking about the settlements. I don't like that either but worse things happen, not something I can get all that upset about when you think of what IS and Boko Haram are doing, why are we so upset about such a tiny conflict? And why is it so much more important?

[Kralizec]

So what. It's perfectly possible to have an opinion on Hamas without even thinking about the settlements. I don't like that either but worse things happen, not something I can get all that upset about when you think of what IS and Boko Haram are doing, why are we so upset about such a tiny conflict? And why is it so much more important?

ISIS has its own thread, you don't have to bring it up all the time. Boko Haram possibly deserves its own thread, but what's there to say about them? They're bad?

[Fragony]

ISIS has its own thread, you don't have to bring it up all the time. Boko Haram possibly deserves its own thread, but what's there to say about them? They're bad?

Do I bring up Isis all the time, really. Try finding it. Within context.

[Kralizec]

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053610515
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607569
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607483
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...post2053607241

Summary: you think we should all stop criticizing Israel because we never talk about ISIS, which is worse.