Speaking of Israel...

[Hooahguy]

It seems to be a common problem among most mainstream pro-Israel supporters (the ones whose only knowledge of the conflict comes from what they are told at Israel advocacy seminars), they tend to just block out opposing viewpoints to maintain their world view.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It seems to be a common problem among most mainstream pro-Israel supporters (the ones whose only knowledge of the conflict comes from what they are told at Israel advocacy seminars), they tend to just block out opposing viewpoints to maintain their world view.

Which is the most common way for a good majority of people to reduce their cognitive dissonance.

Many of my fellow conservatives listen to Limbaugh regularly....few listen to Maddow. Don't know how you actually learn anything that way, but an endless chorus of "of course you are correct" must be soothing to the ego.

[Hooahguy]

And then you have this gem, reported from the Jewish Press. Besides the fact that I think its kind of disgusting, if its true in the first place, that people are happy the threatened more violence to get what they want, the whole damn site is a joke. Just check out the disclaimer before the comment section:

Our comments section is intended for meaningful responses and debates in a civilized manner. We ask that you respect the fact that we are a religious Jewish website and avoid inappropriate language at all cost.

If you promote any foreign religions, gods or messiahs, lies about Israel, anti-Semitism, or advocate violence (except against terrorists), your permission to comment may be revoked.

[Beskar]

- Simone de Beauvoir

She does do some nice observations. Though my run-ins with 'radical feminists' tend not to go well for the wrong reasons.

[Beskar]

Here are two interesting blog posts:
How to Criticize Israel Without Being Anti-Semitic
How to Support Israel Without Being Racist

[Hooahguy]

From the same blog, also very interesting:

What have we learned?

[Idaho]

Humanise Palestine project:

http://humanizepalestine.com/2014/07...-qassem-elwan/

[a completely inoffensive name]

From the same blog, also very interesting:

What have we learned?

You taught us to pick up guns, you taught us to slaughter and persecute and ethnically cleanse, you taught us that the only way to protect ourselves was to stop preaching peace and patience because that leads to our graves. We learned your lessons well
[...]
So take some responsibility.

​Hilarious.

[lars573]

Problem is he has point.

[Husar]

Yeah, it's all my fault because I'm born a Nazi.

[Greyblades]

Problem is he has point.

Does he? Because some of our ancestors were dicks and could be considered responsible for giving jews a bad attitude we can't judge them for not learning from assholery and start to imitate us at our ancestor's most asshole-ish? Even though nearly all of us living now are exempt of the previously mentioned dickery purely because we learned not to be such assholes?

​Hilarious.

Could you expand on this?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Could you expand on this?

Yeah, it was humorously wrong, so I found it hilarious. Ok, but in seriousness we didn't teach anything and it's not our fault they "listened". They picked what they wanted to follow, it was never forced. If Israeli's wanted to, they could have abandoned the idea of Israel when it became apparent it would only create lots of violence. But they didn't. They could have set an example as a multicultural state in the same vein that Europe has been attempting for the last 40 years but they didn't.

It's all a big joke. We agree with this philosophy and we have taken it to such extremes that we slaughter Palestinians and evict them from their homes. But the burden is on the West because it is "their" philosophy and "their" teachings. What does that even mean? Did the West invent forced migrations? Pretty sure that's been around for quite some time in human history.

[Hooahguy]

I think it should be less "this is your fault" and more "why are you surprised?" than anything else. I mean Jews have been expelled from countries around the world for centuries when they werent wanted, so I suppose it makes sense that Israel learned how to effectively deal with "undesirables" from past experience. Problem is, the world changed and the "undesirables" fought back.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think it should be less "this is your fault" and more "why are you surprised?" than anything else. I mean Jews have been expelled from countries around the world for centuries when they werent wanted, so I suppose it makes sense that Israel learned how to effectively deal with "undesirables" from past experience. Problem is, the world changed and the "undesirables" fought back.

That argument is the root of all modern anti-Semitism though.

Bear in mind, the people who allowed Israel to be founded were Christians, the people in the West now think like Christians even if they are not. Christian thought says that it is better to die than to do evil, and that you turn the other cheek when someone hurts you.

Jewish though demands and eye for an eye - one straw poll I saw on Youtube had a lot of Israeli Jews saying "yes, they believed in vengeance". You'd never get anyone in Western Europe or the US saying "yes, let's take revenge on those people."

So, when this argument is put forward - I've seen it before - it basically tells the Christianised populations in Europe etc. that the Jews are not actually "like us" and that they are not forgiving, that they will take the worst possible lesson from a bad situation.

That argument makes Jewish though repulsive - it feeds straight back into the traditional "Christ killer" slander.

[Husar]

I think one can have that thought without wanting to get rid of jews.

Even the "christ killer" argument is silly because if you care a lot about christ, you should know that he wouldn't want you to avenge him.

Nonetheless I find it strange how so many Christians support jews per default even though the jews reject Jesus as the messiah. Does that mean if I convert from Christianity to judaism I still go to heaven but can follow completely different rules?

[Tellos Athenaios]

You'd never get anyone in Western Europe or the US saying "yes, let's take revenge on those people."

A certain former president and a certain serving president of two terms in recent memory are not feeling very appreciated today.

Arguably, the drone strike program is straight out of Israel's "vengeance is a dish best served by missile" book.

[Hooahguy]

Bear in mind, the people who allowed Israel to be founded were Christians, the people in the West now think like Christians even if they are not. Christian thought says that it is better to die than to do evil, and that you turn the other cheek when someone hurts you.

Jewish though demands and eye for an eye - one straw poll I saw on Youtube had a lot of Israeli Jews saying "yes, they believed in vengeance". You'd never get anyone in Western Europe or the US saying "yes, let's take revenge on those people."

Its one thing to say that Christian theory detests violence, but then you look at the Spanish Inquisition, the thousands of religious pogroms incited by how the Jews killed Jesus and other things like that, and finally the Holocaust where most Christian leaders stayed silent as millions were murdered, and you wonder why Jews as a people tend not to trust other people who arent within the fold? Undoubtedly Christian-Jewish relations have improved over the past 70 years but the distrust will always be there. Is that a fault in the way that the Jewish community thinks? Absolutely. But is that kind of distrust expected? Absolutely.

And I think you overestimate the way that other people in the West thinks when it comes to vengeance. Just look at post 9/11, everyone was clamoring for vengeance and Im sure there are examples of that in Europe as well.

So, when this argument is put forward - I've seen it before - it basically tells the Christianised populations in Europe etc. that the Jews are not actually "like us" and that they are not forgiving, that they will take the worst possible lesson from a bad situation.

The problem is that the way Israel is reacting is how Europe would react to things like this before the whole human rights idea took hold. Judaism as a culture is very big on memory, and has many prayers and songs how through the generations "they" tried to kill the Jews but we survived. So its a very "survivor" mentality which feeds into this idea that now that Jews finally have a state to call their own, they will fight tooth and nail to keep it safe from all threats, and right now the biggest threat are the Palestinians. So what do they do? They take the lessons that were learned from centuries of persecution and apply it to that threat.

Nonetheless I find it strange how so many Christians support jews per default even though the jews reject Jesus as the messiah. Does that mean if I convert from Christianity to judaism I still go to heaven but can follow completely different rules?

From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.

[Rhyfelwyr]

From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.

Yeah its kind of funny, you have these Christians pushing the Zionist agenda so that their messiah will come back, but then you have the ultra-religious Jews opposing it because they believe their messiah has got to come before they can return in the first place.

It is only American-type Evangelicals that believe that sort of stuff by the way, the historic position within mainstream Christianity never advocated such thought. This is because these (largely) American 'dispensationalists' believe that God has continually dealt with humanity through various separate 'dispensations' of his grace, and so the promises given to the church are separate and co-exist with the promises given to the Israelites. The traditional view on the other hand known as 'covenant theology', is that that Jesus himself, and by consequence the church, are actually the fulfilment of the promises given to the Israelites, rather than a something separate in their own right.

This is why dispensationalists are eagerly awaiting for a literal third temple to be built to make sacrifices (in accordance with prophecy), while adherents of covenant theology believe that Jesus himself was that third temple and the last ultimate sacrifice (thus fulfilling the prophecy). I would say the latter view makes more sense in light of John 2: 19-21:

"Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.” They replied, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?” But the temple he had spoken of was his body."

Anyway, these differences are why dispensationalists believe the Jews must return to their land and build their temple, but all that is irrelevant to those who believe in covenant theology. Sometimes people try to play the anti-semitism card against covenant theology beliefs and slander it as 'replacement theology', as if the church replaces Israel. But this is a misrepresentation because they would believe that the church is the fulfilment of the promises to Israel, not a replacement. And in fact the truth is that covenant theology offers the Jews a higher standing in Bible prophecy, since they believe that the prophetic in-bringing of the Jews prior to the apocalypse is not a physical in-bringing into an area of land, but a spiritual in-bringing into the church that will see them gain an everlasting inheritance. This is why, admist the apocalypticism of the British Civil War, Oliver Cromwell re-invited Jews into Britain to be part of his 'godly republic', after they had been expelled hundreds of years previously.

Now, it is partially because of the misrepresentations of covenant theology that the Israeli government was enraged at a report by the Church of Scotland on the promised land issue. I say partially because frankly solid theology wasn't at the heart of that report, the Church of Scotland has been infested with liberals including those of the unquestioning 'free Palestine' mentality who thought they would go a little beyond the bounds of theology and include a wee critique of Israeli government policy. But theological misunderstandings were still partly to blame.

Not sure why I ended up writing all that, hopefully it will maybe give a broader understanding of the Christian position on the issue.

[Idaho]

The average age of Gazans is 17. It's one of the youngest populations in the world. Quarter of a million are under 10.

Respected British news anchor makes a plea for the children of Gaza. Well worth 3 minutes of your time:

[Fragony]

The average age of Gazans is 17. It's one of the youngest populations in the world. Quarter of a million are under 10.

So what, is it Israel's fault that they drop one every 9 months, they breed like rabbits over there. Get less kids, less get killed by being used as human shields.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

So what, is it Israel's fault that they drop one every 9 months, they breed like rabbits over there. Get less kids, less get killed by being used as human shields.

Where to begin with this one....hmmmm.....nope, not worth it.

[Papewaio]

Problem is he has point.

Historic timeline as a problem though.

Israel was forming before WWII.

Whilst the Holocaust was happening British controlled Palestine was being destabilized by Zionists who were already doing all the following:
"You taught us to pick up guns, you taught us to slaughter and persecute and ethnically cleanse, you taught us that the only way to protect ourselves was to stop preaching peace and patience because that leads to our graves. We learned "

[Hooahguy]

Historic timeline as a problem though.

Israel was forming before WWII.

Whilst the Holocaust was happening British controlled Palestine was being destabilized by Zionists who were already doing all the following:
"You taught us to pick up guns, you taught us to slaughter and persecute and ethnically cleanse, you taught us that the only way to protect ourselves was to stop preaching peace and patience because that leads to our graves. We learned "

True, but what kicked off modern Zionism was the Dreyfus Affair which was just another big incident of antisemitism.

Point Im trying to make here is that Jews have been underfoot for centuries, and when they finally have someone else underfoot are we really so surprised that they exercise that power?

[Montmorency]

That quote, though, seemed more like:



Which instantly confirms ACIN's attitude.

[Fragony]

Where to begin with this one....hmmmm.....nope, not worth it.

Oh noes disaproval is mine. If it wouldn't be for the billions of aid they would starve to death instead of being collateral damage. They are the victims of the war Hamas wages on Israel, not the victims of Israel's retaliations. At least it's quiker. Hamas needs dead kids more than a junkie needs crack and they make damn sure that as many as possible get killed.

Pallywood.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Its one thing to say that Christian theory detests violence, but then you look at the Spanish Inquisition, the thousands of religious pogroms incited by how the Jews killed Jesus and other things like that, and finally the Holocaust where most Christian leaders stayed silent as millions were murdered, and you wonder why Jews as a people tend not to trust other people who arent within the fold?

OK - I'll get right to it.

The Inquisition was a phenomenon of the Renaissance - aimed at building a new Spanish nations it targeted all non-Catholics. This obviously fell heavily upon the Jewish populations, but it also fell heavily upon the Muslim population, which was probably larger, and targeted even those suspected of deviancy - i.e. not being Roman Catholic. Not to belittle the fact that the Jews were expelled, but it was not a movement targeting Jews specifically.

Thousands of religious Pogroms? Unlikely, dozens yes, hundreds possibly, but not thousands. That is a gross exaggeration. Looking through Wikipedia, there are perhaps 100 pages on instances of anti-Jewish pogroms, and some of those (like the 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt) were not about Jews, but they were targeted as part of the wealthy merchant class. As far as I know, the only pogroms that targeted Jews specifically as "Christ Killers" were the ones associated with the Crusades - carried out by people that everybody considered unhinged fanatics, including the Church, the Emperor and most normal people.

And then we come to the Holocaust, which targeted Jews first, and then anyone else who the Nazi's considered a threat - and which the Roman Catholic Church (largest denomination in the area affected) vocally opposed while it was possible and continued to actively frustrate throughout the 1940's, leading to the death of some of its clergy.

Undoubtedly Christian-Jewish relations have improved over the past 70 years but the distrust will always be there. Is that a fault in the way that the Jewish community thinks? Absolutely. But is that kind of distrust expected? Absolutely.

To listen to you, I'd say they haven't improved at all. If Jews are constalty expecting another Pogrom, which is what this comes down to, and they don't trust the people they live next door to then the situation is exactly the same as for the last 1,000 years.

Contrast with Western discourse that talks about "Judeo-Christian" rather than "Abrahamic" religion.

And I think you overestimate the way that other people in the West thinks when it comes to vengeance. Just look at post 9/11, everyone was clamoring for vengeance and Im sure there are examples of that in Europe as well.

Clamouring for just retribution, which is practically the same but psychologically different. Sure people demand "justice" and they mean vengeance, but you'll rarely hear them say "we want revenge for those killings."

The problem is that the way Israel is reacting is how Europe would react to things like this before the whole human rights idea took hold. Judaism as a culture is very big on memory, and has many prayers and songs how through the generations "they" tried to kill the Jews but we survived. So its a very "survivor" mentality which feeds into this idea that now that Jews finally have a state to call their own, they will fight tooth and nail to keep it safe from all threats, and right now the biggest threat are the Palestinians. So what do they do? They take the lessons that were learned from centuries of persecution and apply it to that threat.

so Jews don't believe in Human Rights?

Can we try that again, please?

From my understanding its from the thought that if all Jews go back to Israel it will trigger the messiah coming or something along those lines.

Basically - it's the most toxic of alliances.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh noes disaproval is mine. If it wouldn't be for the billions of aid they would starve to death instead of being collateral damage. They are the victims of the war Hamas wages on Israel, not the victims of Israel's retaliations. At least it's quiker. Hamas needs dead kids more than a junkie needs crack and they make damn sure that as many as possible get killed.

Pallywood.

This post, though many will still disagree disagree with your point, at least makes a more understandable assertion of Hamas' responsibility in these non-combatant deaths; nor are you the first to suggest that their leadership is benefiting from these deaths and is encouraging their occurrence to continue to garner sympathy.

The post I derided had none of this content, but was the usual "those dirty X, all they do is fornicate and make more of themselves" racist claptrap.

[Beskar]

I have been told about this, but I haven't been able to find anything conclusive through google searching, but in short:

Apparently, Hamas were planning a massive assault on Israel, by dressing up as IDF forces and springing out the ground like hobbits to carry out assaults and raids.
These offensive tunnels were built during the 'diplomatic' period of Hamas and the formation of the unity government.
These tunnels cost half-million each (21 in number). The amount of tunnels altogether are in their hundreds, with many built under schools, hospitals, refugee camps, to hide rockets and other military equipment.

Sources:
Al-monitor and Haartz.
The Guardian and NYtimes mention the tunnels but not any plans.


The amount of corruption and the amount of aid-money being ill-spent is terrible. Imagine if all this money was invested in Welfare of the population and diplomatic solutions with israel, instead of being used to buy bombs and rockets.

[Fragony]

The post I derided had none of this content, but was the usual "those dirty X, all they do is fornicate and make more of themselves" racist claptrap.

I bring it upon myself by wording things undimomaticaly.

[drone]

The average age of Gazans is 17. It's one of the youngest populations in the world. Quarter of a million are under 10.

Respected British news anchor makes a plea for the children of Gaza. Well worth 3 minutes of your time:

This guy knows nothing.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

But seriously, if the demographics are accurate the next generation of Gazans will be a serious problem for the Israelis.