Malaysian Airline 777 Shot Down over Ukraine

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“At present it appears they have already doctored the site and may have tampered with the Flight Recorders - which they removed from the wreckage and handed over to investigators only about 24 hours ago.” There you go propaganda, fresh news:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...ck-box-n163111

So they didn't doctor the Voice Recorder - ok.

I didn't say they had, merely that they "may have". Now please produce evidence that the site has not been doctored, wreckage moved and tampered with.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Elected government of Egypt <> Elected government of Poland
Elected government of Ukraine <> Elected government of Donezk

Where does self determination end and where does it start?
How much self determination did the West foster under Pinochet, Mubarak, Gadaffi?

Can a village decide to have self determination if the country's policies will ruin that village in the long run? Why would self determination only work on a national level and is that really self determination or imposed on everyone? What happened to the great nation of Yugoslavia?

There is no "Elected government of Donezk".

Aside from that, I was discussing the 1990's and why Russia's view of history, and their claims to have been deceived, are false.

[Husar]

There is no "Elected government of Donezk".

Indeed, but enough people decided to follow some dude to cause really big trouble for the Ukrainian army.

[Brenus]

"Now please produce evidence that the site has not been Now please produce evidence that the site has not been doctored, wreckage moved and tampered with.." Err, I think you are the one to come with proof they did, and well, without the usual proof by Social Media provided by the Ukrainian Intelligence. Because, apparently, on the ground, the OSCE monitors are not complaining about this. You know, the same ones who were taken in hostage few months (weeks?) ago, according to the Ukrainian Intelligence and media. Do you remember?

And after a little bit of thinking, can you explain:"the site has not been doctored, wreckage moved and tampered with"? Removing all bodies and parts of planes pretending the plane in fact was never shot down, or not here? Or adding clue(s) like a missile with clear Ukrainian flag on it to prove it was the Government that did it? Tempered with what exactly? Can you elaborate? What would be the advantage to move wreckage of few meters, or even to take it out of the scene?
Looking forwards of your answer...

[Fragony]

Ah, we send military-police. Unarmed.

Edit: could be worse, special forces will be armed, our Ozzy mates are opening up a can as well. Cheers mates!

[Husar]

Ah, we send military-police. Unarmed.

Edit: could be worse, special forces will be armed, our Ozzy mates are opening up a can as well. Cheers mates!

You should invade Russia together and get Putin, then give him some waterboarding, chinese thousand scratches torture and hang him openly in front of several classes of russian primary school kids to make a point. Finally you can declare that you won and brought freedom and democracy to Russia and return to what the fallout left of your homes.

On a related note, I read that Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands and everybody is getting angry at her now. There's talk about demonstrations in front of her home and sending her back to Russia. I say get the pitchforks and the torches, then tar and feather her. Again, make sure that little children watch to teach them how their parents deal with problems.

[Sarmatian]

On a related note, I read that Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands and everybody is getting angry at her now. There's talk about demonstrations in front of her home and sending her back to Russia. I say get the pitchforks and the torches, then tar and feather her. Again, make sure that little children watch to teach them how their parents deal with problems.

No revenge rape?

Pfft, mobs aren't what they used to be.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

No revenge rape?

Pfft, mobs aren't what they used to be.

Well, its the Netherlands for pete's sake, not the Balkans -- they simply don't have ya'll sense of historical "style."

[Seamus Fermanagh]

You should invade Russia together and get Putin, then give him some waterboarding, chinese thousand scratches torture and hang him openly in front of several classes of russian primary school kids to make a point. Finally you can declare that you won and brought freedom and democracy to Russia and return to what the fallout left of your homes.

On a related note, I read that Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands and everybody is getting angry at her now. There's talk about demonstrations in front of her home and sending her back to Russia. I say get the pitchforks and the torches, then tar and feather her. Again, make sure that little children watch to teach them how their parents deal with problems.

Is there a point here? As near as I can tell your point boils down to 'you cannot do anything so sit back and enjoy the ride.' Hardly inspiring that...

[Fragony]

On a related note, I read that Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands and everybody is getting angry at her now. There's talk about demonstrations in front of her home and sending her back to Russia. I say get the pitchforks and the torches, then tar and feather her. Again, make sure that little children watch to teach them how their parents deal with problems.

I didn't even know, try any website's comment section and google translate it to see what almost everybody thinks about that one. I have never seen a more pathetic attempt to profile yourself, she is welcome as far as just about everyone is concerned. The sad part is that she and her friend will probably have to leave because some idiot wanted to be in the papers. Of which he used to be the boss off, it's a disgrace that he felt like pulling her into this because of his narcistist attention-complex. She just isn't safe anymore as she is too big a price, and she should leave, so does her friend who also has nothing to do with it, she is a big price for abduction.

This is the idiot who thought it was a good idea to ruin these peoples life, I hope he will be remembered for it.

pieter broertjes http://static3.volkskrant.nl/static/...xl_1509442.jpg

We are very much disgusted by this and I hope he steps down very soon. He didn't even apoligize, just said it was clumsy. To make sure everybody kmows where Putin's daughter lives, his daughter who never harmed us in any way. She just lives here. No Dutchie will ever want to harm her but it's an open border deal nowadays, others will absolutily want to hurt her to hurt Putin. Ever considered that.

Pieter Broertjes, Fuck You. You make us look so bad.

[Husar]

Is there a point here? As near as I can tell your point boils down to 'you cannot do anything so sit back and enjoy the ride.' Hardly inspiring that...

Well, I don't find the lynch mob mentality very inspiring either. The link between a plane getting shot down and Putin's daughter is also shady, like people are grabbing at the only thing they can get and use it/her as a valve for their anger. Now you can say the world isn't fair and the people on the plane were innocent as well but IMO the world is certainly not going to get any fairer if more people turn to mob mentality. How about we hunt jews in the streets because we don't like the way Israel treats Arabs?

Being Putin's daughter does not automatically make her responsible for what happened and I do not find it inspiring to blame her because she is an easy target. That does not mean that I support everything she and her dad do but punishing entire families for the fault of one family member seems very medieval.

In other words, was the way Norway dealt with the Breivik massacre uninspiring and lazy? Should they have done more? Should he have been publicly hanged without a trial or something like that?

[Fragony]

Well, I don't find the lynch mob mentality very inspiring either. The link between a plane getting shot down and Putin's daughter is also shady

They have absolutily nothing to fear from us. We are no idiots we know perfectly well that she doesn't has anything to do with it and we are kinda furious at the guy who made it public that she lives here. For some organisations she's a big price though, she's not safe anymore for all sorts of organisations. They never needed any security when buying groceries untill now. The idiot that just had to profile himself should take a sword an fall on it if there is any honour in his sorry existance.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well, I don't find the lynch mob mentality very inspiring either. The link between a plane getting shot down and Putin's daughter is also shady, like people are grabbing at the only thing they can get and use it/her as a valve for their anger. Now you can say the world isn't fair and the people on the plane were innocent as well but IMO the world is certainly not going to get any fairer if more people turn to mob mentality. How about we hunt jews in the streets because we don't like the way Israel treats Arabs?

Being Putin's daughter does not automatically make her responsible for what happened and I do not find it inspiring to blame her because she is an easy target. That does not mean that I support everything she and her dad do but punishing entire families for the fault of one family member seems very medieval.

In other words, was the way Norway dealt with the Breivik massacre uninspiring and lazy? Should they have done more? Should he have been publicly hanged without a trial or something like that?

She is a symbol. As long as only symbolic action is aimed at her -- protests in front of her house, PNG'd and sent home to the Rodina -- then I do not know that there is anything evil afoot. Attempts to harm her would be anathema, but I think Frag's comment above makes it clear that most Nederlunders aren't going to allow that to happen.

As to the larger issue, I think that Putin is reminding all of Europe that finesse and cultured attitudes cannot substitute for willpower. How soon, I do not know, but it will come done to some nation or nations having to say "this far and no further" and then back up their words.

I will pray that I am wrong in this.

[Brenus]

"How soon, I do not know, but it will come done to some nation or nations having to say "this far and no further" and then back up their words." Err, like Putin did?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

"How soon, I do not know, but it will come done to some nation or nations having to say "this far and no further" and then back up their words." Err, like Putin did?

That being a prime component of the lesson referenced in the immediately previous sentence.

[Shaka_Khan]

Did the majority of the Dutch know about his daughter living in the Netherlands before this happened? She tends to stay away from media attention. I've seen only a couple of photos of her - one of her when she was a kid and another of her in her early 20s. (She is much taller than her father). Or was it all over the Dutch news that she married a Dutch man? It would've been a good idea to stay low especially when looking at how many enemies her father has.

[Fragony]

Did the majority of the Dutch know about his daughter living in the Netherlands before this happened? She tends to stay away from media attention. I've seen only a couple of photos of her - one of her when she was a kid and another of her in her early 20s. (She is much taller than her father). Or was it all over the Dutch news that she married a Dutch man? It would've been a good idea to stay low especially when looking at how many enemies her father has.

I had no idea, the guy who revealed it is an asshole. She fled, and I take it her husband as well, he has a company here, way to go. Aparently Putin regularily visited her, without anyone knowing it.

[HopAlongBunny]

There is precedent, and I think we can expect the same reaction: deny, deflect, dodge pretty much forever.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle19703260/

[a completely inoffensive name]

Are we still deluding ourselves with arguments that the other side is just filled with the other sides propaganda?

[Viking]

The frontlines appear to be approaching the crash site. I'd guess most of it is under Ukrainian control within two weeks; perhaps as early as within a day or two. It might be damaged in the process.

Black smoke above the #MH17 crash site. Ukrainian and rebels tanks on the site

https://twitter.com/PierreCrom/statu...20451176022016

Ukrainian Artillery anti aircraft and APC convoy few kilo meters from downed airliner site . At least 20 armed vehicles . #cbcnews #ukraine

https://twitter.com/OrmistonOnline/s...20990571909120

#ukraine military roll closer to #MH17 crash site. We saw 20 artillery anti aircraft and APC's - #cbcnews

https://twitter.com/OrmistonOnline/s...25796413833216

[Beskar]

Are we still deluding ourselves with arguments that the other side is just filled with the other sides propaganda?

I have to be honest, I wonder when Ukraine is back under control, what they will do about Crimea.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah everybody seems to have completely forgotten about the fact that Crimea was annexed just like that, total war style! Maybe in fact the whole Eastern Ukraine conflict was a ploy by Putin to make people forget about Crimea. Because I don't see what he is aiming for with the sort of half-hearted support he has been giving the rebels there.

[Brenus]

I think that was all the point.
Putin was not interested in annexing Ukraine (one of the biggest problem in Europe, which will need billions just to up-grade, and I don't even think of the rebuilding the towns that the Ukrainian Army is actually shelling, buildings and minds...). Ukraine will have her victory, but Putin will keep Crimea.
Perhaps some real terrorism will appeared in the shelled areas, who know?
How long will the Eastern Parts be patrolled by armed vehicle and soldiers in arm? No one can know for sure, but having chosen the military option, Kiev will have to live wit it...

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think that was all the point.
Putin was not interested in annexing Ukraine (one of the biggest problem in Europe, which will need billions just to up-grade, and I don't even think of the rebuilding the towns that the Ukrainian Army is actually shelling, buildings and minds...). Ukraine will have her victory, but Putin will keep Crimea.
Perhaps some real terrorism will appeared in the shelled areas, who know?
How long will the Eastern Parts be patrolled by armed vehicle and soldiers in arm? No one can know for sure, but having chosen the military option, Kiev will have to live wit it...

They could fight for the land or give it up....to most governments that doesn't really constitute a choice.

[Sarmatian]

They could fight for the land or give it up....to most governments that doesn't really constitute a choice.

I don't think giving it up was on the table. If Russia seriously wanted to have those eastern areas (and beyond), they would have done it after the referenda, and Kiev would have had to live with it.

The question was whether they wanted a centralised or a decentralised country. They opted for the former. Whoever ends up with the territory, it will remain a hot-spot. Moscow understood that, Kiev didn't.

The elephant in the room is the disastrous state of the country, in terms of politics and economy - when this conflict ends, one way or another, everything that's been swept under the rug will come out. I'm putting a tenner that there will be more than 1 prime minister a year for the next decade at least. Another tenner that there will be at least two Maidan like mass protests somewhere in the country within the same time frame.

Ukraine... Should have been one of the richest and most developed eastern European countries by now, ahead of Poland and Russia. What a freakin' shame.

[Husar]

They could fight for the land or give it up....to most governments that doesn't really constitute a choice.

There was a time shortly after the coup where talk may have changed things but it seemed like either the new government sent the wrong signals or didn't talk at all. And when the worries of the population in the east were not addressed for a certain time, some people picked up their guns...

[Papewaio]

Why? Maybe the republic of Donezk or whatitscalled actually has a majority favoring independece. Or rather it did until the Ukrainian government startet a war over it and they started to think peace under the Ukrainian government is preferable after all. That means the Ukrainian government won through sheer terror.



Indeed, and quite obviously the Maidan government didn't have the consent of the people in the east. Not everybody in the east wanted an armed insurrection but that doesn't mean they liked the Maidan government. The last government that was voted for by all Ukrainians was Yanukovich, the next one was never voted for by the public and the current one was not voted for by a lot of people who would oppose it.

Of course that was thew one thing where Putin and the rebels shot themselves in the foot because annexing a strongly pro-russian island and not voting in a strongly pro-russian region could only result in a pro-western president if the results were always close before.



Elected government of Egypt <> Elected government of Poland
Elected government of Ukraine <> Elected government of Donezk

Where does self determination end and where does it start?
How much self determination did the West foster under Pinochet, Mubarak, Gadaffi?

Can a village decide to have self determination if the country's policies will ruin that village in the long run? Why would self determination only work on a national level and is that really self determination or imposed on everyone? What happened to the great nation of Yugoslavia?

My reference to the will of the people is more along the lines of post soviet bloc countries not liking their former masters to the point of joining NATO. It is hardly a conspiracy against Russia if its former ruled people in relatively stable democracies would choose to go to the EU or NATO.

It does show that very few of those people saw USSR as a legitmate government of the people & it reinforces that the only way they maintain it is by force including attacking journalists, dissenters, dissidents and anyone who speaks out against the corruption.

If Russia was a benign country and USSR a legitmate government over the Eastern Bloc then why have so many of its former vassal states joined NATO? If they were so nice and ruled by the will of the people they would still be on good terms. The results speak for themselves.

Russia cannot complain that an independent state joins NATO. They are no longer client governments of the USSR so they can do as they wish and there was no Treaty at the fall of the USSR preventing it. It's all the crying of a bully now that the other kids have other options.

[Husar]

A lot of people from the former DDR would actually want those good old times back.

And with countries such as Poland and Czechoslovakia it is more complicated, the two even hate eachother. Poland also conquered Russia once and is very proud of having done so to this day.

Now Ukraine was apparently not a "relatively stable democracy" and a 180° turn in foreign policy was apparently not a great idea for that country. The interim government may have prevented the separatist movement by making sure that people in the east would know that noone was going to break ties with Russia.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If Russia was a benign country and USSR a legitmate government over the Eastern Bloc then why have so many of its former vassal states joined NATO? If they were so nice and ruled by the will of the people they would still be on good terms. The results speak for themselves.

Not necessarily... Scotland, Bavaria, Catalonia, Quebec etc have all had a pretty good time of it under legitimate governments, but they have strong elements within them that want them to go their own way. Their relationships with their 'masters' might not be as bad as those of the Eastern Bloc vassals with the USSR, but the principle stands.