Malaysian Airline 777 Shot Down over Ukraine

[Viking]

This is odd, only seperatists are supposed to be there.

https://mobile.twitter.com/obk/statu...030528/photo/1

You probably have seen the pic of seperatists holding a teddybear as if it is a trophy, big outrage here, but might possibly be seen in a different light. I don't think this was a terrorist attack but just a tragic mistake, but the internet is exploding.

You can see him hold up the toy here at around 0:58:




So the AIDS researchers figure was wrong; turns out there were only 6 people on the plane heading to the conference (at least that's the current figure). I never saw the 100+ number confirmed anywhere, so I am not really surprised. But at least one prominent researcher was killed, though.

[Fragony]

If they own up to it it was still a horrible screw up and a decision they made without actually knowing what they shot at (quite obviously). All the people involved in this probably wish they could just disappear into the ground and if they have any conscience left it's probably waterboarding their brains right now. I've felt heavy regret for much, much, much smaller mistakes.

I know that war is confusing and all that but if you play around with toys that contain 70kg of explosives you should be sure what you are aiming them at before you push that button.

The biggest mistake was flying there, other airlines took a different route. I wouldn't want to be the guy that pushed the button. It's kinda scary, an other (dutch) site I post usually smart people don't even consider that nobody gains anything by shooting down a civilian plane. It's hard to swallow that so many fellow Dutchies died, especially now that the victims are getting a face, but ffs keep your cools

[Husar]

The biggest mistake was flying there, other airlines took a different route. I wouldn't want to be the guy that pushed the button. It's kinda scary, an other (dutch) site I post usually smart people don't even consider that nobody gains anything by shooting down a civilian plane. It's hard to swallow that so many fellow Dutchies died, especially now that the victims are getting a face, but ffs keep your cools

Err, no, only after the plane was shot down did Lufthansa and some other airlines announce that they would not fly there anymore and would consider alternative routes from now on. Which also means they did still fly over there before.

I'm not sure what you mean by cools, I just said if I had pulled the trigger and killed 300 innocent people due to my own mistake, I would possibly never be cool again in my life. But I wasn't that guy, so I'm cool.

[Fragony]

Err, no, only after the plane was shot down did Lufthansa and some other airlines announce that they would not fly there anymore and would consider alternative routes from now on. Which also means they did still fly over there before.

I'm not sure what you mean by cools, I just said if I had pulled the trigger and killed 300 innocent people due to my own mistake, I would possibly never be cool again in my life. But I wasn't that guy, so I'm cool.

Talking about my fellow countrymen who should keep their cools. There is a lot of anger flaoting around but nobody knows what happened yet. It's understandable of course, but also kinda scary.

[Fisherking]

Interesting.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ight-MH17.html

Though what was edited is not totally proven.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It is hard to conceive of a non-terrorist purposefully targeting a civilian airliner of a non-involved nation. It was, most probably, a mistaken identification kill.

These have happened in the past, even with highly trained personnel. IR655 KAL007

Warfare...and whatever other labels are attached to the conflict in Eastern Ukraine it must be considered that...makes for stressful decision making and sometimes for dreadful mistakes. We will learn, eventually, how much information they had when they pulled the trigger and with the luxury of time and distance that decision will be evaluated.

For me, it is only an explanation -- explanations do not make the horrific less horrible, cannot make senseless death sensible. I feel sorrow and pity more than rage.

Those responsible for the shootdown will bear the weight of this incident on their souls. It is not a burden I would seek to bear.

[Fragony]

I certainly wouldn't want to be the guy that is 'responsible'. Forgive and forget if you ask me. The dead are on their way so the family can bury them, that's the last I want to hear about this really. Shit happens.

[Fragony]

Yeah, I do think this is the case, but it is a very stupid mistake. I think the rebels genuinely believed it was Ukrainian troop transport and shot at it, then boasted about it on the internet/etc for that reason. Once it was discovered it was a civillian flight, they backtracked hard and pretended like they had nothing to do with it.

I think the rebels should have came clean. It doesn't stop the tragedy, but it shows they are actually honest and do all they can to try to resolve the mess with the international community. I think people can forgive mistakes better than lies, and instead of the rebels getting the brunt, it could be redirected to the air-line company and other areas that failed.

Internet is exploding because they are lying murderers and who won't own up.

Right on it. It's anominous but a seperatist admitted that it was them, and that it was all a mistake.

Armed forces arived because they expected paratroopers to drop. They were devastated when they arived and realised their mistake. Poetin had nothing to do with any of this.

Sour as it may be, humans make mistakes.

[Beskar]

So the Russians believe that the Dutch sent a zombie plane full of corpses over the rebel-held areas then shot it down.
Source

Right on it. It's anominous but a seperatist admitted that it was them, and that it was all a mistake.

Armed forces arived because they expected paratroopers to drop. They were devastated when they arived and realised their mistake. Poetin had nothing to do with any of this.

Sour as it may be, humans make mistakes.

I can completely buy that it was a terrible and unfortunate mistake. It makes no sense for the rebels to shoot down a civilian airline on purpose as it doesn't help them. I just dislike the fact they are trying to cover it up with lies.

They should simply accepted it, do an apology, accept international assistance in clearing up the mess. It would be rather humiliating but they get points for being honest and a victory for morality.

[Sarmatian]

So the Russians believe that the Dutch sent a zombie plane full of corpses over the rebel-held areas then shot it down.
Source

Actually, the article in Russian on which they base that conclusion mentions some "conspiracy theories" that are/were floating on the internet. It doesn't conclusively say anything. Furthermore, Strelkin didn't say that Dutch sent a zombie plane but that some reports mention that some bodies appeared to have died before that crash, but adds that everything is speculation until proper forensic investigation is concluded.

The pattern of over-inflating original Russian articles is, unfortunately, nothing new. Serious journalism has for a long time taken a back seat to sensationalism and cheer-leading. .

[Papewaio]

The pattern of over-inflating original Russian articles is, unfortunately, nothing new. Serious journalism has for a long time taken a back seat to sensationalism and cheer-leading. .

I think you will find that no matter the country of origin that journalism has slid into entertainment as that is where the money is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Actually, the article in Russian on which they base that conclusion mentions some "conspiracy theories" that are/were floating on the internet. It doesn't conclusively say anything. Furthermore, Strelkin didn't say that Dutch sent a zombie plane but that some reports mention that some bodies appeared to have died before that crash, but adds that everything is speculation until proper forensic investigation is concluded.

The pattern of over-inflating original Russian articles is, unfortunately, nothing new. Serious journalism has for a long time taken a back seat to sensationalism and cheer-leading. .

Notably, Ukrainian sources posted what they claimed were intercepts from Russian Fighters who expressed scepticism at the idea that a civilian plane would be in the area so "it must by spies".

Given how paranoid you are about Western motives, I can only assume those backing Russia are an order of magnitude worse.

Also, I would note that my reading of post-Communist attitudes leads me to believe that the Seperatists would blame the pilots/airlines/passengers for being in the way rather than themselves for not confirming the target.

[Brenus]

“Ukrainian sources” Very safe sources, as we know. Did they intercepted these comments on Social Media? Did these comments were deleted shortly after? It seems to be a pattern in Ukrainian sources...

In the meantime, this morning : http://news.yahoo.com/us-no-evidence...-politics.html
The BBC told this morning that USA Agency confirmed that the plane may have shot down by mistake by the Rebels and has no evidence bla bla bla. If the Agency starts start to use conditional now….

[Sarmatian]

Notably, Ukrainian sources posted what they claimed were intercepts from Russian Fighters who expressed scepticism at the idea that a civilian plane would be in the area so "it must by spies".

Given how paranoid you are about Western motives, I can only assume those backing Russia are an order of magnitude worse.

Also, I would note that my reading of post-Communist attitudes leads me to believe that the Seperatists would blame the pilots/airlines/passengers for being in the way rather than themselves for not confirming the target.

And some paranoid people in the west thought that Russia purposefully downed a civilian airplane to blame it on the Ukrainians. Paranoia isn't anything new when it comes to tragedies. How many conspiracy theories were there about 9-11?

Anyway, the most likely scenario is that federalists simply made a mistake. The right thing to do would be to admit that mistake, apologize and take care of the families of the victims. It doesn't work that way in practice most of the time. When USS Vincennes shot down a civilian plane, it took several years until US admitted the guilt. By admitt, I mean pay reparations, because they refused to apologize and even gave a medal for exemplary conduct to the captain of Vincennes, so I'm not holding my breath here.

There will be many theories and investigations, and, after some time passes, hopefully someone will admit the mistake and apologize.

And I'm also sorry that you see anyone who is not a NATO cheerleader as a paranoid person, but that's not my problem.

[Husar]

Given how paranoid you are about Western motives, I can only assume those backing Russia are an order of magnitude worse.

Are you paranoid if someone is actually out to get you?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...527678726.html

[Fisherking]

Yes

http://media.santabanta.com/images/p...3/sms-2665.jpg

[Husar]

Oh yeah, Western motives:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...embargo-report

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Anyway, the most likely scenario is that federalists simply made a mistake.

What are Federalists now?

You mean the Separatists who want to be part of Russia?

The actual Ukrainian Federalists have either left the area or are keeping their heads well down.

I think you're paranoid because you think "the West" is out to get Russia, and Serbia, but you don't think Russia is out to annex Ukraine - despite Putin very clearly saying he wants to re-integrate at least Eastern Ukraine into Russia.

Anyway - the Rebels are the most likely culprits, the only ones who actually have to watch the skies exclusively from the ground and therefore the ones most likely to have itchy trigger fingers.

At present it appears they have already doctored the site and may have tampered with the Flight Recorders - which they removed from the wreckage and handed over to investigators only about 24 hours ago.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Are you paranoid if someone is actually out to get you?

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...527678726.html

Uh huh:

The second criticism of the standing Western narrative is that Putin is playing dirty. Obama, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and the EU's top diplomat Catherine Ashton have been at pains to call him out on this. But has the West not been doing the same? It all depends on the timeframe you use to judge the Ukraine crisis.


In 1990, the final leader of the dying Soviet Union was explicitly promised by then US Secretary of State James Baker that NATO would not take advantage of Russia's weakness and expand their influence eastward. In a speech which he gave in the Kremlin, Baker confirmed that there would be "no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO one inch to the east".
In an interview with Der Spiegel in 2009, Mikhail Gorbachev was gutted: The promise he had been made that day by Baker had proved a hollow deceit.


"One cannot depend on American politicians," he said.


He was joined by then Russian President Dmitry Medvedev, who confirmed the West's duplicity.


"None of the things that we were assured, namely that NATO would not expand endlessly eastwards, and our interests would be continuously taken into consideration," had happened.


Gorbachev and Medvedev were right to be angry. Despite Baker's promise, NATO had expanded into Poland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Slovakia, Slovenia, Bulgaria and Romania. All of these countries were formerly within Russia's sphere of influence. And all of these countries were significantly more than "an inch to the east".

Maybe the guy didn't get the memo about how that list of countries are permitted self determination?

What did that promise even mean?

I would say that "no extension of jurisdiction" means that NATO will not extend itself outside its own territory - and indeed it has not, it has not intervened in Ukraine, but a US Secretary of State in 1990 had no power to bind the entire Alliance against accepting new members. If the Russians believed that when the Baltic or Balkan Republics asked for NATO protection, NATO would refuse and say "no, you belong to Russia" then that is, frankly, a problem with their mindset.

So - the West is not out to "get" Russia but nor will it support Russia in trying to suborn neighbouring countries.

All those countries the author list? They SCARED since Russia annexed Ukraine.

[Husar]

Maybe the guy didn't get the memo about how that list of countries are permitted self determination?

Does that mean ISIS can determine for themselves what they want to do with their country?

[Montmorency]

You do realize you just argued against Eastern-Ukrainian secession, right? Unless you actually believe ISIS should get to do whatever it wants as a radical armed minority...

[Papewaio]

Does that mean ISIS can determine for themselves what they want to do with their country?

Depends if you believe in the requirement to be a legitimate government is to have the consent of the governed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Does that mean ISIS can determine for themselves what they want to do with their country?

Elected Government of Poland =/= ISIS.

Strawman to the max?

[Brenus]

“At present it appears they have already doctored the site and may have tampered with the Flight Recorders - which they removed from the wreckage and handed over to investigators only about 24 hours ago.” There you go propaganda, fresh news:
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ukr...ck-box-n163111

[Fragony]

Sounds like we (Dutch and Ozzies) are foolishy dragged in a conflict that isn't ours. 'Police mission', where did we hear that before. Means special forces are flown in. I am sure Ukraine aproves.

How about no? We got the bodies what else is there to do.

[Husar]

You do realize you just argued against Eastern-Ukrainian secession, right? Unless you actually believe ISIS should get to do whatever it wants as a radical armed minority...

Why? Maybe the republic of Donezk or whatitscalled actually has a majority favoring independece. Or rather it did until the Ukrainian government startet a war over it and they started to think peace under the Ukrainian government is preferable after all. That means the Ukrainian government won through sheer terror.

Depends if you believe in the requirement to be a legitimate government is to have the consent of the governed.

Indeed, and quite obviously the Maidan government didn't have the consent of the people in the east. Not everybody in the east wanted an armed insurrection but that doesn't mean they liked the Maidan government. The last government that was voted for by all Ukrainians was Yanukovich, the next one was never voted for by the public and the current one was not voted for by a lot of people who would oppose it.

Of course that was thew one thing where Putin and the rebels shot themselves in the foot because annexing a strongly pro-russian island and not voting in a strongly pro-russian region could only result in a pro-western president if the results were always close before.

Elected Government of Poland =/= ISIS.

Strawman to the max?

Elected government of Egypt <> Elected government of Poland
Elected government of Ukraine <> Elected government of Donezk

Where does self determination end and where does it start?
How much self determination did the West foster under Pinochet, Mubarak, Gadaffi?

Can a village decide to have self determination if the country's policies will ruin that village in the long run? Why would self determination only work on a national level and is that really self determination or imposed on everyone? What happened to the great nation of Yugoslavia?

[Montmorency]

Where does self determination end and where does it start?
How much self determination did the West foster under Pinochet, Mubarak, Gadaffi?

Can a village decide to have self determination if the country's policies will ruin that village in the long run? Why would self determination only work on a national level and is that really self determination or imposed on everyone? What happened to the great nation of Yugoslavia?

I self-determine that l'etat c'est moi. Now what?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I self-determine that l'etat c'est moi. Now what?

Convince others to agree in sufficient number to avoid the "nasty, brutish, and short" bit.

[Greyblades]

Also make sure your last name isnt Stuart, de Bourbon, Bonaparte or Romanov.

[Brenus]

"l'etat c'est moi" that is the first step, then you build Versailles and the Canal du Midi.