And the world record for "most botched execution" goes to...

[Rhyfelwyr]

Fun fact of the day:

The last US execution by firing squad took place in 2010.

Uncivilized, if you ask me.

That's nothing, over here in Britain we were still imprisoning people for witchcraft during WWII.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Fun fact of the day:

The last US execution by firing squad took place in 2010.

Uncivilized, if you ask me.

It really was the best method.

[Greyblades]

'Cant tell if sarcastic...

[Rhyfelwyr]

If it worth noting, that in the case Kadagar is referring to was that of Ronnie Lee Gardiner, and it was the first of its kind in 14 years. From what I have read, it was only carried out by firing squad because Gardiner demanded it on religious grounds. Apparently, as a Mormon, he believed in the idea of 'blood atonement' and that he must physically spill blood to pay for his crime. It seems that the authorities did everything they could to talk him out of this idea, but he wouldn't back down. I should point out as well that the Mormon church made a point of stating that Gardiner's beliefs were not in fact part of their doctrine.

Anyway, the idea of not violating religious or moral beliefs does paint something of a different light on it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

'Cant tell if sarcastic...

It's the best method.

Four high calibre bullets to the chest will cause shock, resulting in the brain shutting down, pretty much instant unconsciousness followed momentarily by death, and because the bullets are supersonic you won't even hear the shot that kills you.

Add in a blindfold and, if done by proper marksmen, you literally won't know what hit you.

People don't like it because it requires four men to shoot another man, rather than a tech to press a button to inject some drugs.

It's like electrocuting pigs before death - it's to make the slaughterman feel better, not the pig.

[Greyblades]

Didn't we get hanging down to a science to do the same thing? Seems like a waste of bullets/soldier's psyche. Actually now that I think about it, why to the chest? Seems like bullets to the head would have a lower chance of screwing up and leaving a man concious while he dies.

[Noncommunist]

Didn't we get hanging down to a science to do the same thing? Seems like a waste of bullets/soldier's psyche. Actually now that I think about it, why to the chest? Seems like bullets to the head would have a lower chance of screwing up and leaving a man concious while he dies.

Looks better in a casket? If he has relatives that mourn him, it might be nice to have an intact face for the funeral.

[Pannonian]

Didn't we get hanging down to a science to do the same thing? Seems like a waste of bullets/soldier's psyche. Actually now that I think about it, why to the chest? Seems like bullets to the head would have a lower chance of screwing up and leaving a man concious while he dies.

It seems that we've lost the hanging expertise, judging by that Iraqi bloke whose head came off from too long a drop.

[Kadagar_AV]

We should murder people to teach people that it's wrong to murder people...

'Murica

[Tellos Athenaios]

It's the best method.

Four high calibre bullets to the chest will cause shock, resulting in the brain shutting down, pretty much instant unconsciousness followed momentarily by death, and because the bullets are supersonic you won't even hear the shot that kills you.

Add in a blindfold and, if done by proper marksmen, you literally won't know what hit you.

People don't like it because it requires four men to shoot another man, rather than a tech to press a button to inject some drugs.

As I understand the only really fail safe death is still the guillotine since it was designed for almost instantaneous amputation by a doctor originally. Hanging doesn't work reliably enough (body type, height and weight need to be taken into account by an expert hangman, but to get expert at being hangman requires...), firing squad requires a large number of people completely untroubled by the idea of shooting another human being who also happen to be very accurate marksmen. Gas chamber is painful (asphyxiation is simply not very pleasant), electrocution is unreliable (as well as painful), and prison guards playing with the chemist set is really rather inappropriate -- all three options are also rather more disturbing to watch, and watching is necessary in order to make sure the subject is fully executed.

It's like electrocuting pigs before death - it's to make the slaughterman feel better, not the pig.

That is done to make the pig feel better because stress ruins the meat and all the machinery won't do anything for the pig's stress levels.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

While I personally feel that the death penalty is not necessary in the vast majority of cases,

Kadagar, depriving someone of their life after due process and appeal as punishment for the crime of poaching someone else's life is not murder. Your phrase was pithy, but inaccurate.

I was quite serious about firing squad being the best method. Presuming you need to execute at all (and note above that I do not in most cases), something that generates a nearly instantaneous death seems the kindest method.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It seems that we've lost the hanging expertise, judging by that Iraqi bloke whose head came off from too long a drop.

The wag says:

"What, too quick for ya?"

But eh, it is a precise science, soldiers lynching people are unlikely to be scientific.

Didn't we get hanging down to a science to do the same thing? Seems like a waste of bullets/soldier's psyche. Actually now that I think about it, why to the chest? Seems like bullets to the head would have a lower chance of screwing up and leaving a man concious while he dies.

See above - as to "why to the chest" the answer is that a headshot is hard.

[Kadagar_AV]

While I personally feel that the death penalty is not necessary in the vast majority of cases,

Kadagar, depriving someone of their life after due process and appeal as punishment for the crime of poaching someone else's life is not murder. Your phrase was pithy, but inaccurate.

I was quite serious about firing squad being the best method. Presuming you need to execute at all (and note above that I do not in most cases), something that generates a nearly instantaneous death seems the kindest method.

Now you just turned murder into a numbers game. If X amount of people think someone should be murdered, he should be.

It's a slippery slope, it doesn't set a very nice precedent for others, and it reveals a belief that people can not change - regardless.

Scary, in my probably not humble opinion.

[Vincent Butler]

If the death penalty truly were a deterrent, that might be one thing, but history shows us that that is not the case

I don't have stats, so I will not try to contest that, though off the bat I disagree. The thing is, look at how many murders are committed by repeat offenders, it seems fairly common. Execute somebody for murder, I guarantee he will not do it again. Part of the problem is our appeals process. If painless is what you like, and I agree, though at times I want to make exceptions, the Guillotine or Firing Squad are good, hanging works too. Somebody else mentioned the shock caused by the chest shots, but a good head shot also works. Maybe requires better marksmen, but I know I can hit a head sized target at 25 yards with my rifle, and I am not an excellent shot by any means. More messy, though. Some, including myself, believe that blood needs to be shed for blood being spilt, see Numbers 35:33 and Genesis 9:6. Those are my grounds, others may have other grounds. If you want painless and clean, Carbon Monoxide would probably the way to go. From what I understand, having never experienced it myself, it is basically like falling asleep. Then again, how would those who say so know? The thing is, our constitution protects against "cruel and unusual punishment", so some methods are not valid (broken on the wheel, the rack, drawn and quartered, among others). Now for those who oppose capital punishment on those grounds, bear in mind our founding fathers were executing people, so the death penalty was not what they were thinking of.

Why is it so hard for the government to kill people?

I know, right? You would think they would have that down to a science. Maybe that is the problem, they are thinking too much.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Now you just turned murder into a numbers game. If X amount of people think someone should be murdered, he should be.

It's a slippery slope, it doesn't set a very nice precedent for others, and it reveals a belief that people can not change - regardless.

Scary, in my probably not humble opinion.

As I noted, Kad', I am no longer a proponent of the death penalty. My comment was against your labeling it as "murder."

I would agree that it is probably not the best option in a vast majority of instances. Historically, the death penalty has shown rather little in the way of deterrence value; given modern practice the cost of trying a death penalty case and housing those sentenced to death after the exhaustion of appeals, stays and what-not is about $2.5M per offender -- whereas trial and a sentence of life without parole would require that the prisoner live more than 50 years to become a greater cost burden to the state; finally, whatever the death penalty does to stop recidivism (Vincenzo is correct that it does stop repeat offenses once sentence is completed) is countered in part by those who have been wrongly sentenced to death (pretty hard to gain judicial review after the death penalty has been carried out).

Vincenzo:

Both of your scriptural references are taken from the Old Testament -- which describes far more of a "contractual" relationship between humankind and the Almighty. Given the general sense among Christians that the New Testament supersedes the old when the two speak at cross purposes, it might well be noted that nowhere in the Gospels is there a call for the death penalty. Instead, while accepting his own sacrifice, Jesus counsels us to adopt the Great Commandment instead. Paulist references to the death penalty are metaphorical rather than direct and Revalation's reference to those who kill by the sword meeting death by the sword is couched in the basic framework of the Apocalypse.

[Vincent Butler]

Both of your scriptural references are taken from the Old Testament -- which describes far more of a "contractual" relationship between humankind and the Almighty. Given the general sense among Christians that the New Testament supersedes the old when the two speak at cross purposes

Granted they are both OT, but Genesis is before the law was given. Numbers gives the reason why God instituted the death penalty. What was an abomination with God then is still one now. Romans 1 lists a sin that is "worthy of death", though it does not outright call for the perpetrator's execution. Indeed, Christ's blood can cleanse of murder, adultery, you name it. I can't recall any Paulist references to capital punishment off the top of my head, so I won't agree or disagree. Granted that grace and truth came by Jesus Christ, but God said that blood defiles the land, and that Manasseh shed so much innocent blood that the Lord would not pardon it, that tells me that God still takes murder very seriously.

[Kadagar_AV]

... Uses an old book as reference that people are supposed to adhere to...

You are just using an old book as reference and expect people to adhere to it.

[Kadagar_AV]

As I noted, Kad', I am no longer a proponent of the death penalty. My comment was against your labeling it as "murder."

I would agree that it is probably not the best option in a vast majority of instances. Historically, the death penalty has shown rather little in the way of deterrence value; given modern practice the cost of trying a death penalty case and housing those sentenced to death after the exhaustion of appeals, stays and what-not is about $2.5M per offender -- whereas trial and a sentence of life without parole would require that the prisoner live more than 50 years to become a greater cost burden to the state; finally, whatever the death penalty does to stop recidivism (Vincenzo is correct that it does stop repeat offenses once sentence is completed) is countered in part by those who have been wrongly sentenced to death (pretty hard to gain judicial review after the death penalty has been carried out).

When DNA was invented and used, it proved a lot of cold case death sentences were just... wrong.

How's that for a kick in the balls.


I understand that you are no hardcore death sentence guy... But you still play devils advocate, defending it somewhat.

Me? I'd rather we spend our energy on how to best re-program prisoners alternatively lock them in but still have them contributing to society... Rather than spending our energy on how best to kill people.

[Kadagar_AV]

PS: I heard of this guy who is way to loco to be let out in society... He is however great at double checking biblical texts, and the church use his knowledge quite a lot.

I heard of another guy, who totally follow some TV-shows, and these shows use him every so often to check facts about their own shows.

People can have a use for society, even if deemed to dangerous to be let out.



Heck, find one good at Swedish and me as a teacher would happily send him my students essays to check spelling... Halves my workload, makes his day better getting to help both kids and society.

EVERYONE can have a use, you just have to find it. It also takes some work getting there, but I as taxpayer am ready to pay that extra cash for people to contribute instead of getting killed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

PS: I heard of this guy who is way to loco to be let out in society... He is however great at double checking biblical texts, and the church use his knowledge quite a lot.

I heard of another guy, who totally follow some TV-shows, and these shows use him every so often to check facts about their own shows.

People can have a use for society, even if deemed to dangerous to be let out.



Heck, find one good at Swedish and me as a teacher would happily send him my students essays to check spelling... Halves my workload, makes his day better getting to help both kids and society.

EVERYONE can have a use, you just have to find it. It also takes some work getting there, but I as taxpayer am ready to pay that extra cash for people to contribute instead of getting killed.

I get one Saturday off a month.

[Vincent Butler]

You are just using an old book as reference and expect people to adhere to it.

Don't know who originally posted that line, so I don't know the context. It must have been in something I copied, which is the only way I can think of for it being attributed in the "originally posted by" to me. The thing is, I believe the Bible to be the instructions of the Supreme Being who created everything, not just a man, which is why I believe the Bible to be separate from all other books. That is why I try to adhere to it, and hope, not expect, others do too. No, they should not be forced to, forced obedience is not true obedience.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

When DNA was invented and used, it proved a lot of cold case death sentences were just... wrong.

How's that for a kick in the balls.


I understand that you are no hardcore death sentence guy... But you still play devils advocate, defending it somewhat.

Me? I'd rather we spend our energy on how to best re-program prisoners alternatively lock them in but still have them contributing to society... Rather than spending our energy on how best to kill people.

The effective use of DNA evidence has cleared a number of names (317 by last known count in the USA). The bulk of those found guilty were and are indeed guilty -- yet the system is not perfect and meting death renders subsequent exoneration moot.

I rather like your last comment the best. While I am less-than-completely convinced that the eventual release of those who would otherwise have merited a death penalty is a wise idea, I really like your point about giving them some means to add value to the community. Incarcerated or not, existence should not be hopeless.

[Vincent Butler]

Incarcerated or not, existence should not be hopeless.

Right. I have preached in jails before, and my dad does it regularly. Although this is not the context of this post, may I point out that for a Christian, life has no reason to be hopeless. I saw nice libraries in the jails, inmates can get their GED, and overall can improve their lives. That is fine. The thing is, we also should not have jail be better than regular living, such as in some of the situations I have heard of, there was a book about the top jails to go to. Fairbanks, AK jail was rated the best to go to. Wayne Lapierre's book "Guns, Crime, and Freedom" has a list of some of the stuff they got, taken directly from that guide. Another thing about modern jails is workout facilities. Great idea, let's let these prisoners bulk up so they can overpower their guards. Some of these inmates have it better than I do, when you see what they get. Except for the fact that I am free, and can go where I want when I want. That to me is worth more than all the amenities some of them have.

[Montmorency]

The senseless myth of prisoners living it up in prisons has one kernel of truth to it: once out of jail, as opposed to in it, there is no hope and nothing to look forward to.

[rvg]

...Another thing about modern jails is workout facilities. Great idea, let's let these prisoners bulk up so they can overpower their guards. Some of these inmates have it better than I do, when you see what they get. Except for the fact that I am free, and can go where I want when I want. That to me is worth more than all the amenities some of them have.

That's the whole idea behind incarceration as a method of punishment: the loss of freedom. No workout facility or luxurious lunch menu compares to the loss of freedom.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hunters discovered Terry Chasteen's body in White Lick Creek, near State Road 67 and Mooresville in Morgan County. A police search of the creek led to the discovery of the bodies of 3 small children, aged 2, 4 and 5. Terry Chasteen was found naked, with her hands and feet bound with strips of material torn from her clothing, and her head covered with her slacks. She had been gagged and strangled with other strips of cloth. The evidence established that Terry Chasteen had been raped and that she died of strangulation, while the children died of asphyxia due to drowning. At trial, Judy presented an insanity defense and testified at length concerning his commission of the rape and murders. Judy stated that he was driving on Interstate 465 in Marion County when he passed Terry Chasteen's car. He testified that he motioned for her to pull over to the shoulder of the road, indicating that something was wrong with the rear of her car. The two vehicles pulled to the shoulder and stopped, and Judy purported to assist the victims. In the process, he removed the coil wire, thereby rendering Terry Chasteen's car inoperable. When her car would not start, Judy offered her and the children a ride, and she accepted. Judy then drove the victims to the location of the killings and pulled his truck off the road. He testified that he directed them on foot toward the creek, and that he sent the children down the path ahead of Terry and him. Judy testified that he then raped Terry Chasteen and bound her hands and feet and gagged her. When Terry cried out, the children ran back up the path to them. Judy stated that the children stood around him and yelled. At that point, he strangled Terry Chasteen and threw her body into the creek. Judy testified that he then threw each of the children as far as he could into the water. He stated that he remembered seeing one of the children standing in the creek.
...
Judy had sought to terrorize his jurors into giving him the death sentence. But Judy took matters a step further: "You better vote for the death penalty," he said, "because if you don't, I'll get out and it may be 1 of you next, or your family."

"Henry Schwartzchild, who represented the American Civil Liberties Union in a fruitless attempt to foil Judy's wish to die, told about 200 protesters outside the prison gates before the execution, "The governor, the attorney general, the clemency commission, the judges and the prosecutors involved all have the invisible mark of Cain upon their foreheads. "Judy's consent to his own execution cannot wipe that stain away, for who would think that our political and legal leaders should follow the wishes of a sick and destructive killer? Like Adolf Eichmann, they say they merely did their duty and like Pilate they say, 'The law took its course and the blood is not on our hands.' It has been a contemptible spectacle." "The State of Indiana tonight is winning a very sorry victory over us," he said."


Only a few steps above the phelp's gang for sheer looniness.

[rory_20_uk]

It's the best method.

Four high calibre bullets to the chest will cause shock, resulting in the brain shutting down, pretty much instant unconsciousness followed momentarily by death, and because the bullets are supersonic you won't even hear the shot that kills you.

Add in a blindfold and, if done by proper marksmen, you literally won't know what hit you.

People don't like it because it requires four men to shoot another man, rather than a tech to press a button to inject some drugs.

It's like electrocuting pigs before death - it's to make the slaughterman feel better, not the pig.

Could one not rig up a machine gun aimed at the chest? And the trigger to a servo that requires two buttons to be pressed? Removes the requirement for men to shoot at a man.

[Husar]

That machine gun thing reminds me of a prison escape that happened somewhere in Germany/Switzerland about a year ago where some prisoner's buddies somehow managed to drive a truck into a prison, pin the (mostly unarmed) guards down with automatic weapons and escape with their incarcerated friend.

Here it is:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...l-8734387.html

The jailbreak was launched during an exercise period when a van rammed open a prison gate and smashed through barbed wire separating the gate from the yard inside. A police spokesman said: “They used ladders to create an escape route over the prison fence. The guards were pinned down by automatic weapons fire. Fortunately, no one was injured.”

The escapees and their accomplices then set fire to the van and fled at high speed in a second vehicle. Police immediately sent 12 patrol cars in pursuit, and as Orbe lies only 10 miles from the French border, French police were also involved. Yesterday afternoon, police said that although Interpol had been alerted, the hunt was continuing. Poparic, who was serving a six-year sentence for a 2009 jewel robbery, was the third Pink Panther member to escape from a Swiss prison since May. Two others were among a group of five who broke out of a jail near Lausanne after accomplices hurled a sack over the prison wall containing escape equipment and a gun.

That Pink Panther gang is likely to have a movie made about them eventually.

[Montmorency]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Panther_2

[Husar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pink_Panther_2

Oh I know, the article also mentions that they used a trick from those movies, but I'm not aware that the Pink Panther movies have armed prison escapes. It also seems obvious that the Swiss guard their gold better than they do their prisoners.