Rebel guidance.

[williamsiddell]

Where do they appear?

At the start of the game: Anywhere - as mentioned elsewhere there are inacessable places where rebels appear (Spain, Armenia). Unfortunately for you they've been there from the start.

It's said that there is an increased chance of rebels where there is unrest or slave boosts in a city.
Evidence: Rebels don't appear in long settled provinces.

On the road to a port: Never - the game allows only a blockade to disrupt sea trade.
Evidence: Ever seen rebels on Caralis?

Rebels generate on road trade routes - if you a find a particular group too irritating then reload.

The chance of rebels increases with the length of road.
Evidence: The constant appearance on Scythian roads. And then there is Halicarnassus - often has rebels at game start, but never after (only a port road and very short road to a bridge).

Rebels can be 'nudged' off roads to free up trade - and even better 'nudged' into another faction's territory :)

Edit: Ooops wrong again. I've just discovered rebels not on a road in Halicarnassus. Tit

[Myth]

In my experience they appear whenver unrest is high in a province, even if it's not rebelling directly. If you leave them unattended for too long you get permanent devastation which decreases your income from that settlement.

[williamsiddell]

If you leave them unattended for too long you get permanent devastation

Can you put a number on that? I like to play 'just in time'.

[ReluctantSamurai]

If you leave them unattended for too long you get permanent devastation

I was under the impression that devastation caused by brigands clears up eventually just like that caused by invading armies? I could be wrong

[Vincent Butler]

Usually it is the Brigands who disrupt trade, and the Brigands are the ones I see on the roads. It is my understanding that if it is not Brigands, say the Iceni Rebels in Britannia, they will not disrupt trade. Correct me if I am wrong, anyone. Those Halicarnassus rebels off the road might not be Brigands, but instead Lydian Rebels or something like that. I have noticed rebels like to pop up between Ariminium (or Arretium, I get the two confused) and Tarentum, and again just north of Ariminium (or Arretium, whichever one is to the east). Those usually have mercenary Hastati.

[williamsiddell]

Those Halicarnassus rebels off the road

It was quite funny that I hadn't seen new rebels in Halicarnassus - until just after I started this thread. I've lost the save so I don't know what they were. Halicarnassus is interesting because it starts with six rebel units, four of which soon move out. Those four are high quality and so are expensive to bribe early in the game. If you then bribe Halicarnassus (for a good price considering it comes with a wonder), those rebels will not cause devastation meaning you can leave them and bribe when needed. I presume other starting rebel cities are the same.

just north of Ariminium

Do you mean south?

I've had rebels that started on the Sakae road which then moved to a watchtower I created. Those didn't cause devastation for some time, but after about 20 turns did. I agree that some rebels behave differently, but I thought it was some minor bug - I'll keep an eye open.

[Vincent Butler]

Could be south, I don't think it is always the same, they are just right outside the city walls. It seems to vary, north seems to be predominant to me, they move around. They are different from the units that appear between Ariminium and Tarentum. Typically I don't bribe rebel units till I have a lot of money, I prefer to destroy them. Sometimes I will have armies of pure cav for dealing with rebel armies. That works best if you confine that army to a region, it is quicker to destroy the rebels with units from a city than to wait for the cav army to get there.

[williamsiddell]

Typically I don't bribe rebel units till I have a lot of money

I nearly always bribe rebels early in the game for three reasons:

1) They're cheap.
2) They are usually of the same culture as your faction and so some will join your side - saving you build time and population loss (that group at Halicarnassus forms the core of my Asia Minor army when playing the Greek Cities).
3) The cost per turn of a small army set up to kill rebels is likely to be more than the cost of devastation the rebels cause.

[Vincent Butler]

Try it as Rome, the only time you can do it is those Italian rebel armies have the Mercenary Hastati, Velites, or Town Watch. I don't know how the Gladiator ones work. Greek style units are more widespread. I don't think barbarians can get the Merc Warband, because the icon is different. I have heard, I think on this forum somewhere, that Britain and Gaul cannot bribe each other's Warband to their side because the icon is different. Greece does not have that problem, the Militia Hoplites icon is the same, as is the Hoplite one (I believe). Probably same for Archers and Peltasts, I would have to look when I am in the game again.

[williamsiddell]

Aye, that's one of the good things about this game - variety with the factions. I'm playing Parthia at the moment and I can only afford cheap bribes and anyway I can only run a small army. Other Parthian points: no sewage, no doctors so far meaning losses are heavier, only one temple and the ground troops are poor. Parthians are eastern though, as are Armenians and Pontics so there are bribe recruits available.

[Vincent Butler]

Poor infantry is why I don't play as Parthia. Well, if they were set well for money I probably would, but the money is what kills my Parthian and Barbarian campaigns. Interesting idea, bribing, but that requires money, and Parthia does not have that. Even when I play on E/E, I still can't get a Parthian campaign to go anywhere. Which now has me wanting to try one again. The temple is not that big a deal, although I don't know what it gives. I usually favor a temple that gives money first, second improved weapons, third good units. That is my temple order.

[williamsiddell]

Poor infantry is why I don't play as Parthia

I only use them to man rams :) or if I'm desperate. Money is a real problem early, but I turn the corner when I get my hands on some good Pontic and Seleucid cities - after that it's easier. The temple is public order which suits me. Check out the greatest test thread - I'm playing Parthia after what RS said.

[Vincent Butler]

So don't take trade rights, take towns? Of course, everyone attacks you anyway. I will finish my Greek campaign before I try anything else. Besides, by that time something else may get my interest.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Poor infantry is why I don't play as Parthia. Well, if they were set well for money I probably would, but the money is what kills my Parthian and Barbarian campaigns.

Parthia is as close to a pure horse archer faction as there is in the game. You live or die by the mounted bow. It's difficult to play a faction that isn't filthy rich early on, like the Romans, Greeks, or Egyptians. That's the challenge...doing more with less.

So don't take trade rights, take towns?

[Vincent Butler]

So as Parthia, is a good plan of attack Seleucids, Armenia, Pontus, and leave Egypt alone as long as possible, and leave Scythia alone? I have seen Scythia take Phraaspa, of course, that was taken from the computer, not me.

[ReluctantSamurai]

So as Parthia, is a good plan of attack Seleucids, Armenia, Pontus, and leave Egypt alone as long as possible, and leave Scythia alone?

I've never had problems with Scythia, but then I abandon Sakae on my first turn, letting it go rebel. I put what troops I take from the garrison and put them into the single bireme Parthia starts with. So I don't even tromp across Scythian lands. Yep, a temporary hit to the economy, but made up for, and then some, with the quick capture of Seleucia. But my way is certainly not the only way......

[Vincent Butler]

I think the Scythians took Phraaspa was when it was rebel. It does not make sense to go after Scythia, unless you enjoy bankruptcy. It may or may not be a bad idea to take Alanni, but I like the idea of abandoning Campus Sakae. It does not help you out, and the extra units are nice down south. It won't take long till you have public order problems there anyway, unless you kill population growth right off the bat. Might as well, I don't think I have ever seen anybody but Parthia own it, meaning nobody goes after it, meaning you don't need much of a garrison. Maybe do that and leave some peasants or EI to maintain the town so it takes some financial pressure off your other towns. Personally I think I would target Armenia and head along the coast of the Black Sea, ignoring Alanni and trading with Scythia. But as you said, there are multiple ways.

[Matteo]

Hi there, I'm writing here because the topic is about rebel. Today something happened, I don't know how to define it, weird or what... I'm with Franks, I've occupied two WRE settlements, Avaricum and Burdigala, after 15 turns the population had become too much and so I was proceding with my usual method "revolt and related annihilation". I get outside all troops, set taxes on maximum and, on next turn, the cities revolt... but here's that happens the strange thing: instead of being classic rebels (those grey), they become of romans themselves, which, in turn, get out from the city just regained with a huge army (there are even onagres) and attack my poor army that was there, quiet, ready to ri-siege the city and annihilate the population.

WTF is happening? With the other cities there's no problem, I tried, they revolt but they still remain of grey rebels... why does these two become of WRE? I mean RED WRE romans, not green rebels.

I don't know if this could be the reason, but some turns before had appeared the scroll which warned me I had lost because I hadn't completed the aims preset in the given time, but I could choose to continue, and so I did.

Has anyone ever experienced something like this?

[ReluctantSamurai]

I don't play BI, but this seems similar to what happens in R1. If the city was once in the hands of a Roman faction, and that faction is still alive, you will often get a Roman rebellion rather than a rebel one, especially if your culture penalty is high. Sometimes a rebel settlement will revert to it's "originator" or founding faction.

I mean RED WRE romans, not green rebels.

I take it that there are no Brutii in BI? Being an expansion of RTW perhaps some weird glitch had the game dipping into RTW coding?

I was proceding with my usual method "revolt and related annihilation".

There are better ways of dealing with population unrest that virtually eliminate the rebellion problem.....

[Matteo]

I don't play BI, but this seems similar to what happens in R1. If the city was once in the hands of a Roman faction, and that faction is still alive, you will often get a Roman rebellion rather than a rebel one, especially if your culture penalty is high. Sometimes a rebel settlement will revert to it's "originator" or founding faction.

What do you mean with "culture penalty"? And how can I decrease this penalty?

I take it that there are no Brutii in BI? Being an expansion of RTW perhaps some weird glitch had the game dipping into RTW coding?

I don't know, maybe. The problems is, while with normal rebels I can easily take the revolted settlement (they have peasants more than anything), with Roman rebels the situation is definitely harder, because they have better units.

There are better ways of dealing with population unrest that virtually eliminate the rebellion problem.....

Even if I have reached the status of metropolis and built all structures? In that case, how do you manage the problem? With annihilation you gain a lot of money, first of all... the city keeps quiet for a while (also 10-15 turns), finances are always positive and population's happiness is green. If you have a better way, feel free to let me know.

How can I convert to Christianity? I read somewhere that it's better for a large empire than Paganism.

[Vincent Butler]

I don't play BI, but this seems similar to what happens in R1. If the city was once in the hands of a Roman faction, and that faction is still alive, you will often get a Roman rebellion rather than a rebel one, especially if your culture penalty is high. Sometimes a rebel settlement will revert to it's "originator" or founding faction.



I take it that there are no Brutii in BI? Being an expansion of RTW perhaps some weird glitch had the game dipping into RTW coding?



There are better ways of dealing with population unrest that virtually eliminate the rebellion problem.....

No, there are no Brutii, it is just Eastern and Western Roman Empires and their respective rebel factions, Eastern and Western Empire Rebels, which is what Roman revolts become. Yeah, RS, the Western Empire Rebels are darker green, Eastern Empire Rebels lighter green. And they will attack your cities like any other faction. And then there is the Romano-British, which emerge when you kick Rome out of Britain. Their Grail Knights are tough, about like Cataphracts if I remember right, and they get British Legionaries, who are very good as well.
Culture penalty is caused by differences in the cultures of the factions, Romans are similar to each other, barbarians are similar. Mainly buildings and religion (in BI) are the cause of problems, if you get more of your buildings, especially by building over theirs, that will decrease culture penalty. Also taking over without wiping out the population will have some until they become assimilated.
As to converting to Christianity, build monasteries instead of pagan shrines. That gives the Franks the best cav unit in the game, the Paladin. And if your family member is pagan, and you want Christianity, get him somewhere else. The Franks get very few Christians, in my experience, but the monasteries and hermitages help.

[Matteo]

And then there is the Romano-British, which emerge when you kick Rome out of Britain. Their Grail Knights are tough, about like Cataphracts if I remember right, and they get British Legionaries, who are very good as well.

Yep, that's all true what you said but truth be told I didn't find so much problems to defeat them, they appear right near Londinium. I was so sure I'd win that I used the auto-resolve for the battle. They appear just one time, at least in my case.

Culture penalty is caused by differences in the cultures of the factions, Romans are similar to each other, barbarians are similar. Mainly buildings and religion (in BI) are the cause of problems, if you get more of your buildings, especially by building over theirs, that will decrease culture penalty. Also taking over without wiping out the population will have some until they become assimilated.

I immediatly take down the Christian temple when I get a Roman city, then I start to build mine and all remaining structures. Am I doing well? Should I destroy the gov's palace too?

As to converting to Christianity, build monasteries instead of pagan shrines. That gives the Franks the best cav unit in the game, the Paladin. And if your family member is pagan, and you want Christianity, get him somewhere else. The Franks get very few Christians, in my experience, but the monasteries and hermitages help.

At this moment I'm right in the middle of the war with WRE, I think if I convert my nation to Christianity now, there will be issues to manage (unrest, revolts and so on, right?), at the least at the beginning. Do you suggest me to do this thing when I have finished with Romans?

[ReluctantSamurai]

With annihilation you gain a lot of money, first of all... the city keeps quiet for a while (also 10-15 turns), finances are always positive and population's happiness is green.

While extermination appears to gain you money, in reality it costs you. Unless the monetary system works differently in BI than R1, more people=more taxes. Kill those people and you get money from looting (which arguably can be useful, at times) but your tax base goes down and therefore your income. If you are so inclined, calculate the amount of taxes you gather from a given city population for 15 turns and compare it to what you gained from looting + the taxes from a reduced population (to say nothing of eliminating city unrest). If you're then convinced extermination isn't necessarily the best way, then you are ready for ZPG economics. If you are not convinced...then by all means carry on in true Mongol tradition

[Vincent Butler]

RS has a thread on zero population growth, to where he doesn't have unrest issues. I have not made it work for me, probably executing it wrong, whatever, we all have our different styles. You can't tear down the governors building, you will just have to advance over it. And that building causes 20% unrest. Yes, if you automatically tear down pagan buildings and build Christian or vice versa, you will have problems with unrest. Your best bet is to see what religion your family member is, what buildings are in the town, and what the town's religion is.

[Matteo]

This is the current situation...



... pretty messed up, huh?

I'm trying to blow up WRE because I want to know if, once destroyed, my settlements will revolt into Roman rebels still, or if they finally will revolt into grey rebels.

I'm having some difficulties managing my empire though, I know it's not that big but dudes... you have to keep under control each settlements on every turn, to see if everything is okay, then you have to re-train troops in frontline settlements (I have Samarobriva and Mediolanum constantly attacked by Alemanni and ERE). At the same time, being far from the capital is creating me some problems with bribe, I moved the capital from London to Northern Italy (Mediolanum) and Tara's pop is often unrested due to bribe.

Any tips?

[ReluctantSamurai]

As for the campaign, Vincent is a BI player so perhaps he can chime in Looks ominous with that extensive Eastern faction bearing down on you

As for city management, I'd need to see a detailed city info screen to evaluate....

[Vincent Butler]

This is the current situation...



... pretty messed up, huh?

I'm trying to blow up WRE because I want to know if, once destroyed, my settlements will revolt into Roman rebels still, or if they finally will revolt into grey rebels.

I'm having some difficulties managing my empire though, I know it's not that big but dudes... you have to keep under control each settlements on every turn, to see if everything is okay, then you have to re-train troops in frontline settlements (I have Samarobriva and Mediolanum constantly attacked by Alemanni and ERE). At the same time, being far from the capital is creating me some problems with bribe, I moved the capital from London to Northern Italy (Mediolanum) and Tara's pop is often unrested due to bribe.

Any tips?

Actually, when you wipe out WRE, the WRE rebels will become the new WRE. BI was hard, finances are more difficult than in RTW. I would advise lots of Heerbann to deal with ERE, preferably Francisca Heerbann, who are one of the top 5, and I think top 3, infantry units in the game. Axe and Sword Heerbann can hold their own against most Romans, and can beat most other troops. Saxon Hearth troops and Roman Comatatenses/Plumbatarii are better than Francisca Heerbann, and that is it, I think. By the way, in BI, First Cohort have better stats than standard Cohort. ERE trains Hippotoxotai (cav archers). WRE gets Bucelarii, who are crossbowmen who if I remember right are effective against armour. Roman cav is overall decent, nothing spectacular, though they do have some elite cav units. Oh, WRE gets an elite spear unit as well, for those who don't know.

[Matteo]

Actually, when you wipe out WRE, the WRE rebels will become the new WRE.

Do you mean those green? Well, if they don't get armies like WRE when revolting, that isn't a problem at all. Otherwise, look, Vincent... I want to show you what I was saying before. This is a fresh WRE settlement revolted...



... I made a copy & paste to show you the whole settlement's garrison, the cutted piece you see is that of my spy.

Now, I'm sieging the city with those tre armies you see, I post another screen...



... these three armies are full of elite units (Archers, normal Heerbann and Francisca's, Nobles and also various mercenaries). In that screen I'm attacking with only two of the three armies, and the counter says I have a chance of 9:7 victory, with the third army I get 10:7 and yet I can't win? I use auto-resolve because my PC is old, it could never go through it, especially with huge battles like this.

[Vincent Butler]

Yes, those Green. Green becomes Red. I hate to tell you, the good revolting armies are a problem in RTW as well, a revolt gets troops with gold experience and shield, and silver sword (sometimes). Don't know how to get around it, sometimes you will have to let them attack one of your cities and wipe them out on defense. That always works with good walls and garrisons. They won't keep that army totally together anyway. I guess the way around the PC being slow is use smaller units? I play with 80 man units, with a slow PC that may be what you have to do. I can do better, my computer is fast, but I am comfortable with 80. The first computer I played Rome on was an old Windows 98, we played with 40 man units. Ugh. I also like 80 because there were 80 men in a Roman maniple.
You say you can't win, I think Rome gets a boost in Autoresolve. I know in RTW an army with Amazon Chariots, at least in Hyperboria, can win with even 5:1 odds against them, if you autoresolve. So I think they gave Rome a boost in that regard as well. Well, I am sure there are cheat codes, though that would be a last resort. I think that army should be able to handle them. I notice no cav in your army, you might want more cav and less archers. It seems to me that archers are calculated in Autoresolve as melee infantry, though that is only based on observation. In the actual battle, you could shoot them to pieces. The Auxilia Palitinae are probably what are causing problems, those are their main elite units, barring the BI version of Arcani, I don't remember what they are called.

[Matteo]

I'll try to reduce units, then.

About elite revolts, I've never seen like these one (it's always so, every city from Avaricum below when revolts gets those damned fucking best troops), I've also played Rome. In England, but also in Samarobriva, when population revolt, I manage to defeat them with just 5 peasant units and 5 archers units. How is it possible that I have to use such many troops to fight a shit empire which is in ruins by now?

P.S.: I have also cavs in those three armies, Nobles and Raiders.