British soldier left to starve after losing JSA

[HoreTore]

Welfare queen argument

The reason why we have ended up with the system we have now, the reason why people like the guy in the OP are left to starve, is because people have made arguments like the one you are doing now.

Maggie made a bunch of these arguments, and they allowed her to destroy much of the welfare system. If you want the opposite, I suggest you resort to a different set of arguments. If you wish to get rid of any benefits given to Romanians, do not fool yourself into thinking the general benefits for Britons won't disappear with them.

So by EU law you can get social welfare in any nation you choose within the EU?

As easily as a mother of 4 can get millions in child support. According to the Daily Mail; yes, according to reality; no.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No.

Basically, if you are entitled to a benefit whilst you are in that country, you have access to it. It is theoretically offset by the favour being 'returned'. So it would be comparable to someone moving within the same nation, you are entitled to the benefits of the state you are living in.

The cost of living is different between here and Romania, so basically they take the money whilst living in bad conditions here, then transfer it through to Romania where they get 'more' for it. So live like a Pauper today so you can live like a Prince tomorrow.

For every Romanian living on benefits here and sending it home there are, what, 10? Working and sending money home to Romania.

[Beskar]

For every Romanian living on benefits here and sending it home there are, what, 10? Working and sending money home to Romania.

Probably. They would make a lot more money working than trying to get it through our benefit system, especially getting over £200 a week opposed to £70.

[HoreTore]

For every Romanian living on benefits here and sending it home there are, what, 10? Working and sending money home to Romania.

Immigrants living exclusively on welfare(as far as the government know) are of course working as well. When you can get a human to wash your car for five pounds, you can't really fail to understand what's going on.

[Kadagar_AV]

For every Romanian living on benefits here and sending it home there are, what, 10? Working and sending money home to Romania.

That is the most absurd thing I have read 2014.

Source? From my point of view very few Gypsies does honest work in other countries.
1. Romanians are not the issue, a subculture thriving in Romania is. The gypsies, to be even more precise.

2. I don't think you will find many people who dislike "Romanians" at large. It is a very specific sub-cultural group of Romanians that the rest of the world dislike: The Gypsies, - for good reasons or bad is another topic.

I don't honestly think other cultures have a problem with Romanians, they have a problem with Gypsies.

[HoreTore]

That is the most absurd thing I have read 2014.

Source? From my point of view very few Gypsies does honest work in other countries.
1. Romanians are not the issue, a subculture thriving in Romania is. The gypsies, to be even more precise.

2. I don't think you will find many people who dislike "Romanians" at large. It is a very specific sub-cultural group of Romanians that the rest of the world dislike: The Gypsies, - for good reasons or bad is another topic.

I don't honestly think other cultures have a problem with Romanians, they have a problem with Gypsies.

Ah, the wonderful arrogance that only ignorance can produce...

The majority of Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants are employed. Further:

The A2 employment rate, however, remains above the UK average.

A2 means immigrants from Romania and Bulgaria, ie. Roma. However, these statistics only count the legal sector. There is reason to suspect that a hefty number of Roma work in the black market, for example in agriculture or car shops, which will not be counted in these statistics.

Finally, you are being very imprecise when you try to be precise: the Roma is not a Romanian sub-culture.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That is the most absurd thing I have read 2014.

Source? From my point of view very few Gypsies does honest work in other countries.
1. Romanians are not the issue, a subculture thriving in Romania is. The gypsies, to be even more precise.

2. I don't think you will find many people who dislike "Romanians" at large. It is a very specific sub-cultural group of Romanians that the rest of the world dislike: The Gypsies, - for good reasons or bad is another topic.

I don't honestly think other cultures have a problem with Romanians, they have a problem with Gypsies.

The Romani in the USA tend to be self-employed. They experience a high rate of overall unemployment, but not disproportionately so to other minorities, or to other groups of employees in their chosen labor niche (construction etc. are industries known for haphazard employment regardless of the ethnicity of the employee).

The Romani, as near as I can tell, are no more or less predisposed towards crime than are any other minority group once you adjust for socioeconomic factors.

I admit that I am having trouble finding good research pieces where their rates of incarceration and the like are parsed out for effective comparison.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is the most absurd thing I have read 2014.

Source? From my point of view very few Gypsies does honest work in other countries.
1. Romanians are not the issue, a subculture thriving in Romania is. The gypsies, to be even more precise.

2. I don't think you will find many people who dislike "Romanians" at large. It is a very specific sub-cultural group of Romanians that the rest of the world dislike: The Gypsies, - for good reasons or bad is another topic.

I don't honestly think other cultures have a problem with Romanians, they have a problem with Gypsies.

Can the Daily Mail or the Mirror distinguish between Roma and Romanian?

I doubt it - hence my post.

Otherwise - I expect most Romanians would agree with you, and in general so do I. Although, the Roma community is not entirely composed of criminals it DOES have a similar "us or them" mentality to, for example, the historic Jewish community which means that it tends to protect its criminal element more than the settled populace generally would.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The reason why we have ended up with the system we have now, the reason why people like the guy in the OP are left to starve, is because people have made arguments like the one you are doing now.

Maggie made a bunch of these arguments, and they allowed her to destroy much of the welfare system. If you want the opposite, I suggest you resort to a different set of arguments. If you wish to get rid of any benefits given to Romanians, do not fool yourself into thinking the general benefits for Britons won't disappear with them.

I'm sorry but this is a completely ridiculous argument. According to you, I should not try to address any particular abuses of the system, in case that gives some sort of momentum to the people trying to break the whole system down?

If we do not scrutinize and challenge the system to make it the best it can be, just for fear of some Tory malignants using that for their own corrupt purposes, then the system will become a mess and one day it really will fall apart. You should know better than to suggest closing ranks and protecting abuses just because of some perceived outside threat.

Welfare tourism is a problem and it is something that the British welfare state was never intended to support. I am happy for people of any race or nationality to claim benefits if they are trying to build a life here, but I am not OK with welfare tourism. That is a sensible position. It doesn't mean I'm supporting a viewpoint that will lead to ordinary people losing benefits, on the contrary it means removing an unfair burden from the welfare system and allowing more to go to the sort of people they were intended for, for example this ex-soldier who so tragically died.

So long as you keep shutting down valid criticisms of the welfare system as "racist" or "welfare queen arguments", then you are going to keep fuelling the fire of the free-market fanatics who want any excuse to dismantle the whole thing.

For every Romanian living on benefits here and sending it home there are, what, 10? Working and sending money home to Romania.

Yet this is not necessarily a good thing. First off, it is silly to invite people in to take jobs when we already have so many unemployed people. Secondly, these foreign workers tend to be prefered by employers since they can abuse them and ignore things like workers rights. Finally, as you said, they send the money they make back home - it isn't contributing to our economy in the way it would if a 'native' had the job.

None of this makes such immigrants the bad guys in my mind, since unlike welfare tourists, they are just trying to make an honest living. But when it comes to immigration as a policy (rather than immigrants as people, which sadly I feel the need to point out for the benefit of some), then I have reservations with it for the above reasons.

[HoreTore]

The problem with the welfare queen argument is that it argues against a completely exaggerated version of reality. This Romanian did not simply turn up at the border to collect his 40k. He was given a reduced figure of what every Briton is entitled to.

Unless you are of the opinion that British welfare recipients are living the high life, I can't see how you can make the claim that this man is. Yes, taking your wages/whatever from a high-cost country to a low-cost country is a brilliant strategy for upping your living standards, see British retired people in Thailand for examples of that. You are, however, kidding yourself if you believe that this man will now live in Luxury back in Romania.

Further, this has absolutely no bearing on the man who died. It is indeed a completely unrelated issue. He did not loose his benefits because the system is occupied by Romanians. He lost his benefits because he missed a criteria necessary for getting said benefits. The bank isn't empty, he just did not make a withdrawal.

[Strike For The South]

Broken Britain

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yet this is not necessarily a good thing. First off, it is silly to invite people in to take jobs when we already have so many unemployed people. Secondly, these foreign workers tend to be prefered by employers since they can abuse them and ignore things like workers rights. Finally, as you said, they send the money they make back home - it isn't contributing to our economy in the way it would if a 'native' had the job.

None of this makes such immigrants the bad guys in my mind, since unlike welfare tourists, they are just trying to make an honest living. But when it comes to immigration as a policy (rather than immigrants as people, which sadly I feel the need to point out for the benefit of some), then I have reservations with it for the above reasons.

Well, on the one hand, Britain is historically responsible for Poland and Romania being in the shit to begin with - Bulgaria may possibly be someone else's fault but the primary members of the Entente, i.e. Britain and France, took certain decisions before, during, and after WWII that led to those countries which are actually in "Central" Europe along with Germany on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain.

A particularly pointed issue in the case of the Romania as their king is still alive to feel aggrieved on behalf of his contemporaries.

So I say - if you are Romanian or Polish or Czech etc. and you want to come here to work or to study, have at, better yourselves and better your countries by extension. It's about the only good thing the EU is doing at the moment. Conversely, scroungers should be briefly imprisoned, promptly fined, and then evicted.

As to "taking jobs", while it's true that these people depress wages in the labour market these wages are set by British companies who aren't interested in paying the living wage or anything close to it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Well, on the one hand, Britain is historically responsible for Poland and Romania being in the shit to begin with - Bulgaria may possibly be someone else's fault but the primary members of the Entente, i.e. Britain and France, took certain decisions before, during, and after WWII that led to those countries which are actually in "Central" Europe along with Germany on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain.

A particularly pointed issue in the case of the Romania as their king is still alive to feel aggrieved on behalf of his contemporaries.

So I say - if you are Romanian or Polish or Czech etc. and you want to come here to work or to study, have at, better yourselves and better your countries by extension. It's about the only good thing the EU is doing at the moment. Conversely, scroungers should be briefly imprisoned, promptly fined, and then evicted.

As to "taking jobs", while it's true that these people depress wages in the labour market these wages are set by British companies who aren't interested in paying the living wage or anything close to it.

Depressing the labour market isn't really a positive thingy, now is it?

While I of course agree (as it's commonly known) that immigration have a negative impact for the working peoples life and work situation, there is another issue you didn't mention...

The "taking the job" part is not just a saying, it's just how things are.

There are 2 factors main factors here, and you need at least one of them to have a positive result from immigration (national economically speaking):

1. When the immigrant have abilities that the work market need, and that can't be found among the people in the nation.

2. When there are more jobs than applicants.


I guess we all can agree on that, no?

I've met the argument "They do jobs others dont want"...

First of all, we should strive to make all jobs respected. Secondly, the benefit of having an immigrant take the job must make up for the loss of having +1 person on social wellfare in return.


Unqualified immigration is always a net loss.

[HoreTore]

Depressing the labour market isn't really a positive thingy, now is it?

It is.

Keynesian economics dictate counter-cyclical spending. Wage depression resulting from immigration will follow this, and its effects will by and large mirror the fluctuations of the economy.

Britain is a very wealthy country, and without restraining wages will create another bubble. A good example of this effect can be seen in any country dependent on exports which lets its inner market dictate the wage development. Hilarity will ensue within a decade.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Depressing the labour market isn't really a positive thingy, now is it?

It can be, but wages in Britain are not running rampant, so it isn't right now.

While I of course agree (as it's commonly known) that immigration have a negative impact for the working peoples life and work situation, there is another issue you didn't mention...

The "taking the job" part is not just a saying, it's just how things are.

There are 2 factors main factors here, and you need at least one of them to have a positive result from immigration (national economically speaking):

1. When the immigrant have abilities that the work market need, and that can't be found among the people in the nation.

2. When there are more jobs than applicants.

Many British people, especially the current generation who were fed the "university lie" will turn their noses up at a half-decent job with a living wage because it's physical rather than intellectual.

[Papewaio]

Immigrants may individually replace local workers. They also help generate a stronger economy and as a net force more oppoutunity.

[Brenus]

“Many British people, especially the current generation who were fed the "university lie" will turn their noses up at a half-decent job with a living wage because it's physical rather than intellectual.” Which I can understand as I did “half-decent job” when student and they are harsh, painful and a “living wage” is in fact not enough a have a life.
I left happily to immigrants the privilege to use pneumatic hammer(s), the spreading of boiling asphalt on roof, the digging of trench(es) and the removal of gravels. I did enjoy working on roofing and having a highly skilled job. But I left without regrets the awaking at 2 in the morning, the tram/underground morning, travel to the site in a noisy company’s half-truck, the cold in winter and the heat in summer, and the daily hazards of working in building (1 bone broken), to be so tired than I had no option than to collapse on the bed, trying to sleep when all my body was aching of the punishment. I did enjoy the feeling to build something, and the friendship of the workers on site, sharing of food and drinks sometimes, but I went there, got the T-shirt, I am done with it.

Morality: Make it a decent job with decent wages and perhaps Natives will do it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

“Many British people, especially the current generation who were fed the "university lie" will turn their noses up at a half-decent job with a living wage because it's physical rather than intellectual.” Which I can understand as I did “half-decent job” when student and they are harsh, painful and a “living wage” is in fact not enough a have a life.
I left happily to immigrants the privilege to use pneumatic hammer(s), the spreading of boiling asphalt on roof, the digging of trench(es) and the removal of gravels. I did enjoy working on roofing and having a highly skilled job. But I left without regrets the awaking at 2 in the morning, the tram/underground morning, travel to the site in a noisy company’s half-truck, the cold in winter and the heat in summer, and the daily hazards of working in building (1 bone broken), to be so tired than I had no option than to collapse on the bed, trying to sleep when all my body was aching of the punishment. I did enjoy the feeling to build something, and the friendship of the workers on site, sharing of food and drinks sometimes, but I went there, got the T-shirt, I am done with it.

Morality: Make it a decent job with decent wages and perhaps Natives will do it.

Uh huh?

I currently do a shit job for less than the "living wage" so I have some perspective here. Fact is, there's no real way to make my job better, you could (and should) pay me more but it wouldn't make anyone any happier.

[Montmorency]

I left happily to immigrants

Whoa, dude - it would have been one thing to say that you left it happily to "others", but "to immigrants"?

The implication is that French natives are too weak or fragile to do manual work, or that manual work is simply beneath French natives. That sort of ambivalent ethnocentrism is strange coming from you.

[Brenus]

“The implication is that French natives are too weak or fragile to do manual work, or that manual work is simply beneath French natives. That sort of ambivalent ethnocentrism is strange coming from you.” I obviously made a mistake in my explanation. “Many British people” was on what I answered. So I emphasise on immigrants (good enough for them, kind of, of them good enough for the job).
And of course the "university lie" will turn their noses up at a half-decent job with a living wage because it's physical rather than intellectual” bit.
Natives and/or intellectuals don’t turn from manual works because these are beneath from them but because they are not paid enough. Yes, you will have some who think that it is beneath them, but how many Lords are street cleaners?

[a completely inoffensive name]

The scapegoating of the unemployed is sickening it and now people are dying because of it. Things have to change but they won't. What else can I say?

As much as I don't like to say it, some times there is a need for people to feel and distribute shame accordingly.

[Kadagar_AV]

Many British people, especially the current generation who were fed the "university lie" will turn their noses up at a half-decent job with a living wage because it's physical rather than intellectual.

Same here in Sweden.

What self respecting university educated ethnically western person would take a black peoples job?

I'm not saying that view is right or wrong, I am saying that that is the view people have, it's symptomatic in all the western countries I've witnessed.

As I said, nazism and nationalism have a good answer to combat that issue. I have not yet seen any other political ideology come up with a proved WORKING solution.


About the topic: I frankly get pissed off hearing about it. If people die under those circumstances, the state obviously have a problem that needs to be sorted.

[Kadagar_AV]

As much as I don't like to say it, some times there is a need for people to feel and distribute shame accordingly.

Of course. That's what's holding a welfare system up. Welfare MUST be a last resort, and the surroundings of a person should never accept it to be anything but.

If the surroundings start to admit any kind of cheating going on, the welfare system will collapse. I see it happening here in Sweden as we speak.

That is however not what Rhyf was pointing at, and I think you know it if you think another go around on the topic :)

[Husar]

Same here in Sweden.

What self respecting university educated ethnically western person would take a black peoples job?

You say that as though there were no educated, self-respecting black people...

[Greyblades]

Uh, husar, there's no need to dance around it, Kadagar's shown himself to be an unabashed racist several times already.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You say that as though there were no educated, self-respecting black people...

Sounded to me like he was mocking the Effete Swedish youth.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Of course. That's what's holding a welfare system up. Welfare MUST be a last resort, and the surroundings of a person should never accept it to be anything but.

If the surroundings start to admit any kind of cheating going on, the welfare system will collapse. I see it happening here in Sweden as we speak.

That is however not what Rhyf was pointing at, and I think you know it if you think another go around on the topic :)

You didn't get what I was saying at all.

[Kadagar_AV]

You say that as though there were no educated, self-respecting black people...

I have no idea how you could read that out of what I have written. Last time I was in Berlin all the toilet attenders were black, has this changed much lately?

Back in DDR days it could be your friends mom, these days it's just "blacks". Possibly with some arabs sprinkled in, but then women ,as the men are to proud for such work.

Uh, husar, there's no need to dance around it, Kadagar's shown himself to be an unabashed racist several times already.

I prefer realist. A racist wants to put his race above others on a international scale, whereas I more nod and acknowledge racial differences as well as cultural differences, and have a non-bollocks view on how the different human groups co-exist (or fail at it).

Sounded to me like he was mocking the Effete Swedish youth.

Partly that.

Partly, however, I dare say there is now a "black peoples job" category in Sweden. Cleaners as an example, bus driver is another job that changes drastically demographically.

It kind of such having to work as cleaner.

It sucks even harder working as cleaner with you as the only white person on the job, surrounded by blacks and arab women.

I just call it as I see it, and that's what I see in Sweden today. Heck, it's what I see in Europe all over.

You didn't get what I was saying at all.

Yeah, alternatively you didn't try very hard understing what I was saying.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Partly that.

Partly, however, I dare say there is now a "black peoples job" category in Sweden. Cleaners as an example, bus driver is another job that changes drastically demographically.

It kind of such having to work as cleaner.

It sucks even harder working as cleaner with you as the only white person on the job, surrounded by blacks and arab women.

I just call it as I see it, and that's what I see in Sweden today. Heck, it's what I see in Europe all over.

It gets even more shocking when you read the cleaner's CV.

Or we could talk about the Slovakian nurses who come here and become strippers - less obvious, same problem.

We're importing an underclass, that's what the majority of modern immigration is.

[HoreTore]

It gets even more shocking when you read the cleaner's CV.

Or we could talk about the Slovakian nurses who come here and become strippers - less obvious, same problem.

We're importing an underclass, that's what the majority of modern immigration is.

The school secretary where I work is a certified psychologist with two masters.

Prior to starting her 40% position here, she worked as a waitress at a pizza restaurant.

An insane waste of a resource.