Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Those arguments are irrelevant when you start with a mindset that:Originally Posted by HoreTore
And when I point out that British police aren't routinely armed, responds with:
In that mindset, self-defence isn't against criminals, it's against the state. You're not arming yourself against burglars who might be breaking in, you're arming yourself against the state who will be coming for you.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
1.I wouldn't call it a "heavy restriction"
Case in point:
Buying A TAVOR Battle Rifle From A Gas Station?! …: http://youtu.be/kyeE6Yx9lYI
2.Americans used to have the locking restriction until the supreme court threw it out because it was an absurd abuse of the natural right of self defense.
3.Carrying firearms in public is extremely limited and difficult to do legally, hopefully we can help our neighbors change this over time.
4. The idea that an Individual has a responsibility to run away when faced with lethal force in their own home rather than engage to ensure survival flies in the face of everything that most reasonable people believe. Criminals are under no obligation not to harm you and very often will. Laws suggesting this in the US have been changed everywhere and overturned when the locals are too stubborn to get it.
The rights and value of each person is increasing worldwide. Part of this new reality is the dawning of a golden age of self-defense. We want everyone to carry guns and rarely have to use them. I believe that this is possible, like in so many states with gun ownership rates in the stratosphere and homicide rates hiding in the dirt.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 00:30.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
I am incorrect about the rate of firearm usage among police in the UK.in Northern Ireland it has always been high and in England it ebbs and flows based on what they are dealing with. The last time I checked in the mid 2000's they were beginning to arm nearly 30% of all London metro police.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
This argument confuses the purpose and nature of gun ownership in states with high gun ownership. For example Canada(hunting, that rifle you linked to has a 5-bullet mag), Switzerland(national service) and Norway(national service and hunting).
Despite being a stinkin' liberal, I do have a gun in my home. It is definitely not contributing to lowering crime rates, and will absolutely not be used. Not for self-defense, not for anything.
It is not the number of guns that's important, rather it is what those guns are used for that's the problem. The US situation is problematic. The Canadian one is not.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
To be fair, London does have a lot of chavs. The guns are probably justified.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
The situation in Northern Ireland was such that it needed actual soldiers to police it, and not just civilian police. To use that as the basis of the UK's comparison with is a bit biased towards the gun-rate. It's a bit like using the worst inner city ghetto in the US and using that to define the whole of the US, except that even that doesn't compare with the situation in Northern Ireland. As for the metropolitan police, Moody's and Seamus's figures indicate that less than 9% (somewhat less than 30%) of London's police are armed, and you're talking about a city that contains the national government, the centre of commerce, and centre of just about everything else in Britain (Paris's importance to France might just compare with London's importance to the UK, but I can't think of many other cities that so dominate a major western country). If your five largest cities plus DC go down to civil disruptions, the effect on the US would be a fraction that on the UK if the same thing happened to London. And yet our police is overwhelmingly dominated by unarmed civilians. And we prefer it that way.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Yeah....
I'm ignoring that line of argument, as it's just too braindead to engage with... They can keep their militia fantasies for all I care, I won't engage with it.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
I see it more like: "I was assaulted in a way that change my everyday life in a negative way, and would like to protect myself from it happening again".
You don't have to be Freud to understand this line of thoughts. It's not really delusional when you get assaulted and your fiance is a minute away from being blown up by a muslim bomber.
Actually, threads are having people spewing **** and very little actual debate is going on.I don't buy it. There's no doubt Sweden is undergoing a demographic shift, but the claims made by you and Frags are routinely shown to be overblown whenever people post sources and facts that dig a little deeper.
* Gypsies are more criminal than the rest?
* Immigrants from MENA nations leads to a rise in violent crime.
* immigration from MENA leads to way more rapes.
* Immigration from MENA leads to social insecurity.
You argue any of those points? Seriously?
Yes, immigration leads to meeting somewhere in between.You absolutely cannot deal with immigration by alienating the newcomers and proving to them that they are outsiders who must fight for a piece of the pie. It is a flawed approach that ignores reality and won't work. You can't just make them go away, and you can't make them completely assimilate. You will have to meet them somewhere in between, and your country will be changed. Tough shit, its no excuse to be reactionary.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
However, I prefer a western country than a country that is in between western standards and muslim standards. What are they going to contribute with? Their fantastic view on womens equal rights, or what?
Sweden was fully functional when ethnically more robust, nowadays with the immigration I want to arm up. And it's obviously NOT just me. As I said, we just broke a record with one shooting a day.
If the criminal immigrant thugs have guns, I'd like the police to carry heavier equipment than that, and myself to at the very least have a gun to be somewhat level with them in a conflict.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Are you claiming the guns will be used for self-defence, or for hunting?
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
The number of guns isn't problematic. Some combination of guns as a deterrence of violent crime/bad government and ensuring that guns are not in the hands of those who would torment others with them is the future.
You have a gun in the home for no reason? That I do not get, but I don't believe that you would stand by and let someone just break in and not use it against them or at least grab it. Likewise, if your government started targeting minorities for concentration camps I don't believe you would stand by and watch that happen. You can say that being armed against government is a fantasy but I would bet that some of you had grand parents or neighbors in the resistance against the Third Reich.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 00:59.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
I think you Americans ruined it by applying a whole lot of the labels wrong.How come nobody ever uses that word in political discourse any more? There's a reactionary wave of sentiment spanning the whole world right now, causing all kinds of trouble in all kinds of places, and its like people don't remember even what to call it.
But I also notice a very strong trend towards complete ignorance of grammar rules. The amount of genitive forms people try to pass off as plurals lately is astounding. But I see it here in Germany as well, both the wrong plural and other mistakes such as using plural and singular forms intermixed. It's like a lot of people don't really care about correctness anymore at all and all communication goes down the gutter in the long term. No wonder divorce rates are at 50% if people are unable to communicate.
"Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
It is indeed the idea that civilian gun ownership works as a deterrent that is the problem. The guns in Norway, Canada and Switzerland do not function in that way, and yet we have little crime.
We do, however, have very little inequality in our countries. That's what lowers crime. How 'bout trying that in the US, eh?
It's my service rifle. It's locked down, and I neither can(it's under a ton of crap in my storage room) nor will "grab it" in case of a burglary. I still haven't taken it out since I got it, and I won't do so until the next time the government orders me to prance around the woods for a week again.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
And why do they make you do that?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Hunting, of course.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Currently the majority of European countries don't have capital punishment. I can't think of any "western" European countries that do. Any deaths brought about by the authorities are investigated with varying amounts of competence, but at the very least they're brought to light.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Because, apparently, they're having trouble blowing all the tax money they're collecting.
And/or:
VLADIMIR IS COMING TO EAT OUR BABIES!!!!!111
(it's the follow-up service to the conscript year, similar to the national guard)
Last edited by HoreTore; 08-07-2014 at 01:05.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
I don't follow. Are you suggesting that defending your life from a violent criminal is morally equivalent to putting a locked up criminal to death?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
You know just as well as we do that US laws go well beyond allowing lethal force just in the case of life-threatening situations.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Is 70 years since the last time government kicked in Norwegian doors and forced unspeakable evil down the throat of Europe really that long of a period of time? Long enough for people to ridicule those who suggest that an even more tech savvy government could do similar?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Yes, we are pioneers of self defense and will push our views as far as possible. I'm just reminding you of what reasonable people everywhere currently believe. Hopefully that changes to include even more firearms rights.
Personally, I'm not sure that I would leave my bedroom to defend my property during a break in. I don't really care much about property. If I had kids in the house, you know I would go door to door ready to blast any non family that I encountered.
In most states, you have the right to use a firearm to protect your life and the lives of others from serious or capital crimes. You also have the right to deter serious crimes which are in the process of being committed with lethal force if necessary; crimes such as arson, burglary, grand theft auto, rape, etc. Personally, I might just call the cops of my neighbors house is unoccupied and being broken into - but if someone is being carjacked or if there is a home invasion - I'm going to stop it with as much force as necessary because lives are at risk
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 01:17.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
You're the one who brought up state-established concentration camps as a reason for arming yourself in case the state got uppity. Not only do EU (and quasi-EU) countries not have concentration camps, we don't even have capital punishment.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
An armed populace didn't do squat then, it won't do squat now.
And if the Russkies come, I'll be at the border waving them in. Or ordering another Piña Colada at a beach in Cuba.
You do miss the fact that this government can easily arise from an armed population, ie. Blackshirts. When the Germans came to Norway, parts of Norway was German before any German had set foot on dry land; parts of the armed forces joined the nazis the instant they heard they were coming. Likewise, Quislings gang was ready to move in.
Last edited by HoreTore; 08-07-2014 at 01:19.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood. Resistance was important and not futile during WWII. It may not have been the deciding factor, but remember when Heydrich was killed? He wasn't killed by the the British or the Americans directly.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 01:21.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Franco says hello.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
A foreign state occupying another state is easy enough to distinguish. Unless you're arguing for distinctions between separate states to be blurred, and for armed resistance groups to assassinate members of its own country's government.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
Yes, members of a state have the right and responsibility to resist any illegitimate and abusive government that is killing innocent people. This isn't unusual thinking. If only Germans more successfully countered the Nazis before the rise. Spain was un fortunate because you had 2 abusive anti-freedom sides fighting each other.
Resistances also need support from allies. Small arms on the ground and existing counter government civic groups are useful for resistance.
Also, are you suggesting that the Czechs had a moral right to fight the German government occupying them but that Germans had no right to fight their own government?
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 01:28.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
If there is one thing that is never in short supply during wartime, it is small arms.
Also, the claiming the Spanish Republic was "anti-freedom" is just retarded. The republican coalition included everyone who wasn't a fascist or a monarchist, ie. everything from the left and up to and including the US republican party.
The PCE was an insignificant power in the early republic, it was only through the embargo that they gained power.
Last edited by HoreTore; 08-07-2014 at 01:34.
Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
When you have powerful allies supplying. What allies would be supplying Americans? We supply our own party.
Do you think they grow on trees?
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
And how does that theoretical argument translate to countries that don't have capital punishment and where any state-induced deaths are automatically investigated and reported? I'm sure there are philosophical arguments that could be applied to the US of the 19th century. However, unless directly relevant, I'm not sure how useful they'd be when talking about the US of the 21st century.
Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets
I am against capital punishment. I am not against using a firearm to defend yourself from violent attack or those who make it clear that they mean you unknowable amounts of harm.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks