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Thread: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    When you have powerful allies supplying. What allies would be supplying Americans? We supply our own party.

    Do you think they grow on trees?
    During wars, they do seem to do so, yes. Who cares about allies, when there's a friendly local international arms dealer around every corner? He'll get you some delicious AA missiles as well, ya know...

    How many african guerillas under strict embargo and no ally are lacking guns?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-07-2014 at 01:36.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    During wars, they do seem to do so, yes. Who cares about allies, when there's a friendly local international arms dealer around every corner? He'll get you some delicious AA missiles as well, ya know...
    Hey, you're preaching to the choir.
    I see a veiled reference to Russian insolence there.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    This isn't exactly on topic... and actually merges with another political issue we have a topic for.... but I have a little question for ICant so I will ask it and leave the distraction stop there...

    ICant how would all this work in say the Palestine situation?

    They seem to have some pretty decent weaponry, some that I assume you wouldn't even sell to private citizens, but this doesn't seem to have helped them much.

    As for the actual topic can't say I am a fan of the move. It does seem to be fairly limited and we aren't just arming the entire police force, although it is always hard to hold back the slippery slope paranoia!
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Hey, you're preaching to the choir.
    I see a veiled reference to Russian insolence there.
    I am indeed referring to shady russians shipping soviet arms around and not US arm dealers, yes.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly View Post
    This isn't exactly on topic... and actually merges with another political issue we have a topic for.... but I have a little question for ICant so I will ask it and leave the distraction stop there...

    ICant how would all this work in say the Palestine situation?

    They seem to have some pretty decent weaponry, some that I assume you wouldn't even sell to private citizens, but this doesn't seem to have helped them much.

    As for the actual topic can't say I am a fan of the move. It does seem to be fairly limited and we aren't just arming the entire police force, although it is always hard to hold back the slippery slope paranoia!
    Palestinians are already in one big gulag. Small arms seem to be completely ineffective for them faced with overwhelming force and a surrounding population overwhelmingly hostile to them. Even modern ballistic missiles used to great effect elsewhere are completely useless in that situation.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 01:42.
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  6. #66
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    I am against capital punishment. I am not against using a firearm to defend yourself from violent attack or those who make it clear that they mean you unknowable amounts of harm.
    What I'm asking is, how does your anti-Nazi and anti-concentration camp argument apply to countries where there is no capital punishment and where every death caused by the state is automatically investigated and freely reported? You're not talking about 1939 Europe here, but 2014 Europe.

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    What I'm asking is, how does your anti-Nazi and anti-concentration camp argument apply to countries where there is no capital punishment and where every death caused by the state is automatically investigated and freely reported? You're not talking about 1939 Europe here, but 2014 Europe.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Because nothing gold can stay.
    ...And because of that, we should arm the next incarnation of blackshirts...? I am sorry, I do not see the logic here.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Because nothing gold can stay.
    England has been in pretty much the same political state since Charles II in the 17th century. The relationship between the state and the populace hasn't changed much in the last 300-odd years, except for a more planned economy in 1915-18 and 1939-51.

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    ...And because of that, we should arm the next incarnation of blackshirts...? I am sorry, I do not see the logic here.
    That's a matter of perspective. You say we are arming blackshirts, I say patriots. Depending on your biases you see it as arming good or bad. I don't think that civil resistance works when occupiers are not dealing with the after effects of massive crisis, world war, economic collapse.

    Do you believe that we should prepare for nothing and simply scurry away from conflict? I don't believe in a humanity that would run away when others are threatening to harm. I also believe in humanity that knows how to use the right tools for a job and doesn't leave them difficult to find under piles of debris.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 01:57.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    England has been in pretty much the same political state since Charles II in the 17th century. The relationship between the state and the populace hasn't changed much in the last 300-odd years, except for a more planned economy in 1915-18 and 1939-51.
    And the fact that a massive part of the empire has broken away from by using hyper violence or by exploiting the staggering collapses of successive world wars.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    And the fact that a massive part of the empire has broken away from by using hyper violence or by exploiting the staggering collapses of successive world wars.
    We were in this state before we got our empire. We're in this state after we've lost our empire. Heck, we were in this state before we became a United Kingdom. Why should things drastically change now?

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    We were in this state before we got our empire. We're in this state after we've lost our empire. Heck, we were in this state before we became a United Kingdom. Why should things drastically change now?
    Listen , I'm not arguing one way or the other about the topic at hand. I argue only for sensible gun control - namely directing firearms into the hands of the law abiding.

    Law enforcement won't have a hard time getting them if they are needed in a pinch. Let each constabulary make their own decisions. And have Downing involve itself if their numbers are lopsided against the rights of citizens.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 02:03.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    That's a matter of perspective. You say we are arming blackshirts, I say patriots. Depending on your biases you see it as arming good or bad. I don't think that civil resistance works when occupiers are not dealing with the after effects of massive crisis, world war, economic collapse.
    Tyrannies do not grow out of government, tyrannies are formed when charismatic individuals rouse a population into revolution, usually by a relatively small cadre of thugs. You want to give these thugs guns.

    It's not a matter of perspective, it's a matter of fact. The phalange, the blackshirts, the brownshirts and Lenin's vanguard boys were all civilians. If you wish to arm the population, you are also arming those who desire a tyranny. The world is not so black and white that "common man = good, government = bad".

    Even today we see these movements appearing again. Blackshirts are patrolling the streets in Hungary, Italy and Greece, routinely beating up immigrants and political enemies. And you wish to give these thugs guns....?

    European liberty isn't threatened by overreaching government. European liberty is, and has always been, threatened by the civilian population.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Do you believe that we should prepare for nothing and simply scurry away from conflict? I don't believe in a humanity that would run away when others are threatening to harm. I also believe in humanity that knows how to use the right tools for a job and doesn't leave them difficult to find under piles of debris.
    I believe in the methods of Camara, King, Havel and Gandhi.

    Because they work.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Tyrannies do not grow out of government, tyrannies are formed when charismatic individuals rouse a population into revolution, usually by a relatively small cadre of thugs. You want to give these thugs guns.

    It's not a matter of perspective, it's a matter of fact. The phalange, the blackshirts, the brownshirts and Lenin's vanguard boys were all civilians. If you wish to arm the population, you are also arming those who desire a tyranny. The world is not so black and white that "common man = good, government = bad".

    Even today we see these movements appearing again. Blackshirts are patrolling the streets in Hungary, Italy and Greece, routinely beating up immigrants and political enemies. And you wish to give these thugs guns....?

    European liberty isn't threatened by overreaching government. European liberty is, and has always been, threatened by the civilian population.



    I believe in the methods of Camara, King, Havel and Gandhi.

    Because they work.
    Technically, I am against arming violent felons and in favor of background checks, so "your argument is invalid". My argument is precisely the opposite of intending to arm xenophobic thugs. I want to arm the educated and white collar demure. Men and women, from all cultural backgrounds. I want everyone to realize that they don't have to cower and run away from their own homes in the middle of the night when they wait for law enforcement to come pick up their bodies.

    Also, I thought you said government has nothing to fear from civilians and that civilian held small arms are completely ineffective at countering government?

    Where governments can crumble and devolve without the use of force, clearly it is better not to use force.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 02:35.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Listen , I'm not arguing one way or the other about the topic at hand. I argue only for sensible gun control - namely directing firearms into the hands of the law abiding.

    Law enforcement won't have a hard time getting them if they are needed in a pinch. Let each constabulary make their own decisions. And have Downing involve itself if their numbers are lopsided against the rights of citizens.
    Why would sensible gun control be defined as directing firearms into the hands of the law abiding? We have a general suspicion of anyone who might be interested in guns. How is that not sensible gun control?

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Why would sensible gun control be defined as directing firearms into the hands of the law abiding? We have a general suspicion of anyone who might be interested in guns. How is that not sensible gun control?
    It sounds sensible to you. I don't agree with that idea as I've always been interested in guns, as have most males that I've ever met.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 02:32.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Technically, I am against arming violent felons and in favor of background checks, so "your argument is invalid".

    Also, I thought you said government has nothing to fear from civilians and that small arms are completely ineffective at countering abusive government?

    Where governments can crumble and devolve without the use of force, clearly it is better not to use force.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Technically, I am against arming violent felons and in favor of background checks, so "your argument is invalid".
    Technically, the brownshirts were not violent felons. Argument valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Also, I thought you said government has nothing to fear from civilians and that civilian held small arms are completely ineffective at countering government?
    The guns will not bring down government, the charismatic leader will do that. However, they are currently beating up people in the streets of Budapest, Rome and Athens. Arming them will undoubtedly cause (more) deaths and suffering. I cannot for the life of me see how that is a good idea.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Technically, the brownshirts were not violent felons. Argument valid.



    The guns will not bring down government, the charismatic leader will do that. However, they are currently beating up people in the streets of Budapest, Rome and Athens. Arming them will undoubtedly cause (more) deaths and suffering. I cannot for the life of me see how that is a good idea.
    Well, you said thugs where were going around beating people up, so... Like I said, do not arm those people who are committing violent felonies.

    What about the people being beaten up? Would you have advocated for the disarmament of free blacks in the American south? Do you think that their owning firearms protected them then or just caused more to be harmed?
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 08-07-2014 at 02:40.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Well, you said thugs where were going around beating people up, so... Like I said, do not arm those people who are committing violent felonies.
    No, you do not arm those people who are convicted of beating up people. In the case of Hungary and Italy, that's practically nobody. In the case of Greece, it's a tiny minority.

    There are more than enough in each country with spotless records to supply the movement.

    For the historical movements, neither the phalange, brown or blackshirts were convicted felons. Lenin's boys were, however.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    No, you do not arm those people who are convicted of beating up people. In the case of Hungary and Italy, that's practically nobody. In the case of Greece, it's a tiny minority.

    There are more than enough in each country with spotless records to supply the movement.

    For the historical movements, neither the phalange, brown or blackshirts were convicted felons. Lenin's boys were, however.
    You are focusing on one angle. I have addressed both. Don't give guns to those who are guilty of violent assault and prosecute straw purchases who buy guns for felons.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Well, you said thugs where were going around beating people up, so... Like I said, do not arm those people who are committing violent felonies.

    What about the people being beaten up? Would you have advocated for the disarmament of free blacks in the American south? Do you think that their owning firearms protected them then or just caused more to be harmed?
    American solutions for an American problem in an American situation. What I don't understand is why you advocate an American solution to a British problem in a British situation. Our view of guns is different from your view of guns. Demanding that every adult male should be armed has a different effect on us from what it would have on you.

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    You are focusing on one angle. I have addressed both. Don't give guns to those who are guilty of violent assault and prosecute straw purchases who buy guns for felons.
    An irrelevant obstacle for all major fascist movements in Europe. Only the much smaller skinhead groups consist primarily of convicts.

    The blackshirts will have their guns.

    I do believe you are focusing so much on the possibility of evil arising from government that you are blind to the evils arising from other sources. If you wish to prevent fascism, you need to keep more groups than just the government in check. And no, a tax increase does not a fascist make.
    Last edited by HoreTore; 08-07-2014 at 02:50.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    An irrelevant obstacle for all major fascist movements in Europe. Only the much smaller skinhead groups consist primarily of convicts.

    The blackshirts will have their guns.

    I do believe you are focusing so much on the possibility of evil arising from government that you are blind to the evils arising from other sources. If you wish to prevent fascism, you need to keep more groups than just the government in check. And no, a tax increase does not a fascist make.
    Yes, I am wary of the right-wing theocrats in my party. In fact, we should be arming against them as well.
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Tyrannies do not grow out of government, tyrannies are formed when charismatic individuals rouse a population into revolution, usually by a relatively small cadre of thugs. You want to give these thugs guns.
    Pretty sure tyrannies arise out of governments that don't have a separation of powers. I didn't realize Roman citizens overthrew the Senate and declared Caesar dictator for life. Pretty sure it was the ability for generals to be political players that allowed Caesar and Sulla before him to usurp power.

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Separation of powers is only complemenentary to the point here, which is that popular minority movements, not necessarily well-armed, often led by demagogues, are what create, enable, or abet tyrannies. I have never heard of a stable regime or series of regimes that gradually "degenerated" into tyranny (EXCEPT THE USA LOL).

    Caesar had the popularity of the people - don't you ever think it wasn't important, that all he needed were his legions.

    Comparing modern national states with premodern incidents is of course difficult, but if you insist, take a look at Savanarola's rise.
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  28. #88
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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Pah, language is ruined when you try to get so technical anyway. That's why American English is the best, because the only rules that matter are the ones you make up.
    It becomes problematic when someone tries to tell you something and screws up the their/they're/there so bad that you don't even know what he is trying to tell you because the sentence would mean something completely different depending on which is the right one.
    I also hardly doubt that there were quite a few communication errors in history that lead to lots of people dying. It's not about being 100% accurate, I find enough typos in my own texts, it's about getting at least some of the basic rules right so that you can actually get a point across without looking like you don't care. Or in other words, if people start to put as much effort into their regular work as they do into their grammar, welcome to the new banana republic.


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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    English is awesome...

    The money he had had had had no effect on his happiness.

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    Default Re: Routinely armed police on Britain's streets

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    It becomes problematic when someone tries to tell you something and screws up the their/they're/there so bad that you don't even know what he is trying to tell you because the sentence would mean something completely different depending on which is the right one.
    I also hardly doubt that there were quite a few communication errors in history that lead to lots of people dying. It's not about being 100% accurate, I find enough typos in my own texts, it's about getting at least some of the basic rules right so that you can actually get a point across without looking like you don't care. Or in other words, if people start to put as much effort into their regular work as they do into their grammar, welcome to the new banana republic.
    This post puzzled me, as it presented no argument apart from painting a picture, as though the picture itself is an argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    And the fact that a massive part of the empire has broken away from by using hyper violence or by exploiting the staggering collapses of successive world wars.
    It reminds me of Tony Blair's rhetorical habit of listing noun after noun without any verbs to describe what he means by those nouns. At times he wouldn't even bother with nouns, but would just go on with adjective after adjective.

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