Turkish Presidential Elections of 2014: Erdoğan victorious from the 1st round.

[Fragony]

There is no mention of the 20's in Kepel's book(handy free edition).

Further, Islamism was not properly developed as an ideology until after WW2.

Not the full book then.

[HoreTore]

Not the full book then.

Then by all means, do post excerpts.

The 1920's saw colonial rule and the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood and several Arab Nationalist parties and organizations. The link between the two? They both wanted an end to colonial rule.

The similarity ends there.

So, connecting islamism and arab nationalism is just as fruitful as connecting capitalism and communism; they both sought an end to feudal rule.

EDIT: this Kepel book seems to begin in the 70's. I wonder why....?

[Fragony]

Then by all means, do post excerpts.

The 1920's saw colonial rule and the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood and several Arab Nationalist parties and organizations. The link between the two? They both wanted an end to colonial rule.

The similarity ends there.

So, connecting islamism and arab nationalism is just as fruitful as connecting capitalism and communism; they both sought an end to feudal rule.

EDIT: this Kepel book seems to begin in the 70's. I wonder why....?

I am not saying it, I just say it's said. Can't oblige, just read the book if you are interested. It's a pretty dry read but worth your time. It sometimes goes beyond being a mere history-book and makes some odd assumptions mind you

[HoreTore]

I am not saying it, I just say it's said. Can't oblige, just read the book if you are interested. It's a pretty dry read but worth your time. It sometimes goes beyond being a mere history-book and makes some odd assumptions mind you

I do believe I have read enough Kepel now to figure out that he does not equate arab nationalism and islamism, and that you have simply misunderstood.

Whatever the book may state, he has said the exact opposite in multiple other places.

[Fragony]

I do believe I have read enough Kepel now to figure out that he does not equate arab nationalism and islamism, and that you have simply misunderstood.

Whatever the book may state, he has said the exact opposite in multiple other places.

He doesn't equate it but says it is related, being basicly the same, well yeah. Why would the poster of the topic call Erdogan an islamist. i know Turks ain't arabs of course.

[HoreTore]

He doesn't equate it but says it is related, being basicly the same, well yeah.

He most surely does not. He has stated that he does not in several places, two of which I have linked to here.

Methinks you have a problem with nuance and/or logic. "Born of the same struggle(colonialism)" =/= "basically the same, related"

The Arab nationalist movements and the Islamist movements are as different as night and day, capitalism and communism. And like capitalism and communism, they are also mortal enemies.

Why would the poster of the topic call Erdogan an islamist. i know Turks ain't arabs of course.

Because he is one...?

An extremely moderate one, though.

[Fragony]

What you linked is a different period, he takes the trail of islamism over century, for him it starts with the rise of the muslim brotherhood, and yes, arab nationalism. Rtfb

[Fragony]

Well I do love him and it's legal

[HoreTore]

What you linked is a different period, he takes the trail of islamism over century, for him it starts with the rise of the muslim brotherhood, and yes, arab nationalism. Rtfb

No, that would be the anti-colonialism in the Arab world, which started after the break-up of the Ottoman Empire following WW1. This anti-colonialism came in three flaours: the socialists(very unsuccessful), the arab nationalists, and lastly the islamists, represented by the Muslim Brotherhood.

The Muslim Brotherhood was a pretty standard religious revivalist movement, they explained the failures of the muslim world by its supposed rejection of Islam. Hence the muslim world would be great again once Islam was reinstated.

Arab Nationalism, on the other hand, was created by Christians as well as muslim. If that's the same as Islamism, I need an explanation of why a christian would create an ideology which condemns him to death.

[Fragony]

Oh sigh

[HoreTore]

Oh sigh

Come on Frags, explain why Michel Aflaq would create an ideology condemning himself to death. Go on!

[Fragony]

Come on Frags, explain why Michel Aflaq would create an ideology condemning himself to death. Go on!

Ffs read the bloody book before I come to Vikingstan to give you a wedgie, you are mixing up things. The book is called Jihad: Trail of political Islam for a reason. It's about political islam you see. Starting from the early twenties, you know that's about the time the sick man of Europe crumbled, and islam became political which was a new phenonemom. Islamism is not Islam, it's the merging of politics with islam.

Don't make me do it I am bigger than you.

[HoreTore]

Ffs read the bloody book before I come to Vikingstan to give you a wedgie, you are mixing up things. The book is called Jihad: Trail of political Islam for a reason. It's about political islam you see. Starting from the early twenties, you know that's about the time the sick man of Europe crumbled, and islam became political which was a new phenonemom. Islamism is not Islam, it's the merging of politics with islam.

Don't make me do it I am bigger than you.

Re bolded part: no shits. It's a lot more than just mixing religion with politics, though.

I can read "the bloody book", but you damn well know I can't do that RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT. Unless you invent a teleportation device, that is.

Fortuntely, Gilles Kepel has written extensively about the subject, and there are a gazillion articles by him available on the net. I've read half a dozen or so of them, and none of them make the claim you make. Instead, he makes the exact opposite claim several times. Since claiming what you do would be extremely controversial, it is bound to be found somewhere on the net if he has indeed made it.

So get diggin'.

Until you get off your arse and start making some sense, I think I'll consider this 'case closed'.


Also, regarding the poll: does anyone else find it mildly amusing that @PanzerJaeger voted for the socialist?

[Fragony]

Re bolded part: no shits. It's a lot more than just mixing religion with politics, though.

I can read "the bloody book", but you damn well know I can't do that RIGHT NOW THIS INSTANT. Unless you invent a teleportation device, that is.

Fortuntely, Gilles Kepel has written extensively about the subject, and there are a gazillion articles by him available on the net. I've read half a dozen or so of them, and none of them make the claim you make. Instead, he makes the exact opposite claim several times. Since claiming what you do would be extremely controversial, it is bound to be found somewhere on the net if he has indeed made it.

So get diggin'.

Until you get off your arse and start making some sense, I think I'll consider this 'case closed'.


Also, regarding the poll: does anyone else find it mildly amusing that @PanzerJaeger voted for the socialist?

Sounds better with a beat. Read the book, disregard it later if you still want too

[Beskar]

Also, regarding the poll: does anyone else find it mildly amusing that @PanzerJaeger voted for the socialist?

Actually, I think Panzer voted for the nationalist, as in Kurdish independence.

[Fragony]

Actually, I think Panzer voted for the nationalist, as in Kurdish independence.

Would vote for that as well, go Kurds.

As for Gilled Kepel Horrie, the controversery around him is because of him having some radical views, he sees islamism as a naturally doomed ideoligy. That puts him in the same category as other thinkers who are unsurprisingly all from distant soil and know what islamism really is.

[HoreTore]

Actually, I think Panzer voted for the nationalist, as in Kurdish independence.

....And the Kurdish independence movement is mainly a socialist movement. I found it funny.

Would vote for that as well, go Kurds.

As for Gilled Kepel Horrie, the controversery around him is because of him having some radical views, he sees islamism as a naturally doomed ideoligy. That puts him in the same category as other thinkers who are unsurprisingly all from distant soil and know what islamism really is.

Everyone does that.

The controversy we're talking about here is of equating Arab Nationalism and Islamism, which he most certainly has not done.

[Fragony]

Yes he did. Why don't you read the book first. Or read it again if you did.

[HoreTore]

Yes he did. Why don't you read the book first. Or read it again if you did.

Provide linky and/or page numbers.

[Fragony]

Provide linky and/or page numbers.

Don't have it here right now, first chapters about the rise of the brotherhood. What you linked are about building (petro?) islam on the ruins of nationalism, but it covers a whole different period, sixtees'ish, he puts the rise of islamism in the twenties.

[HoreTore]

Don't have it here right now, first chapters about the rise of the brotherhood. What you linked are about building (petro?) islam on the ruins of nationalism, but it covers a whole different period, sixtees'ish, he puts the rise of islamism in the twenties.

This is just getting too retarded for me.




I'm not marrying you anymore.

[Fragony]

I'm not marrying you anymore.

See, early sixties

[GenosseGeneral]

While we all know him already as authoritarian and cleptokratic, it seems like Erdogan is increasingly living in his own world.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...-ceremony.html
While that is nothing unexpected for a man holding power for so long (a minute of silence for Qaddafi at this point), yet he is not the ruler of Kazakhstan, but of Turkey: a key regional power in the Middle East, a nation of 75 million people and the second largest NATO military in terms of soldiers.
Not exactly a comfortable thought to have a guy who is a bit of the rails in power there, especially in light of the recent scandal around arms deliveries for islamists in Syria.
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...g-weapons.html

[Fragony]

Damn I miss my shootouts with Horetore

edit: consistancy faillure de moi here, should be muslims is not the same thing as islam, oh these necro's

[Seamus Fermanagh]

An interesting discussion. However, I am not yet ready to vote in the poll. Fortunately, I have a decade to consider.

[Fragony]

An interesting discussion. However, I am not yet ready to vote in the poll. Fortunately, I have a decade to consider.

In good company then, so are critical Turkish journalists

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In good company then, so are critical Turkish journalists

I was referring to the survey deadline