America sinks into chaos and brutality as police shoot at reporters

[PanzerJaeger]

How many law enforcement officers have you known in your life? I'd be very surprised if it was even one. I would also like to see some sort of numbers to back up the part in bold.

I thought this was common knowledge, but here you go - from a law enforcement periodical no less. No one who could be a microbiologist goes into law enforcement, at least not at the beat cop level.

Compare these standards with the educational requirements of a typical police officer: a high school diploma or GED, followed by less than six months of academy training and several months of field training at the expense of the police department. Until we raise these requirements, many will refuse to see policing as a profession.

Low educational requirements not only diminish the prestige of policing but also prevent police from meeting the high expectations of the people who invest heavily in each police officer position. In California, salary and benefit costs can easily exceed $130,000 per officer per year. At this rate, many taxpayers and elected officials expect officers to have more than just high school diplomas. And they also expect much more from the police departments that employ them.

So... pretty much the same standards as Wal-Mart. The only thing separating the police and the criminals they pursue is a badge, at least socioeconomically.

And every morning they put on that uniform and go to work, it might be the last time they kiss their spouse and children goodbye.

Stop... Just stop. This is the kind of unwarranted veneration that has allowed the police to run roughshod over local administrations across the nation. Chicago cannot make important infrastructure investments for the future because it's stuck in a seemingly never ending pension quagmire, largely driven by the voracious appetite of the local police union and city politicians that do not dare challenge these everyday heroes. Heroes, by the way, that routinely torture random people to close cases.

The police are paid for the risk involved in their work, and paid handsomely. We owe them nothing more, not a higher level of respect than afforded any other government worker and not the benefit of the doubt.

[Slyspy]

It is tricky not to respect a policeman more than you do a taxman.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is tricky not to respect a policeman more than you do a taxman.

I respect police to a certain extent. My area doesn't have a hostile or toxic relationship between the residents and police. Blacks dont report abuse or persecution in the ways that media suggests they do elsewhere.

Either way, I would hope that your entire countries would be able to defeat our individual municipal police forces.... Check populations and income. Europeans could stand to boost their militaries if this is even up for serious argument.

Anyway, my concern isn't really with local LE. I've never heard of no-knock raids in my area and I believe that police strength is over estimated intentionally to deter bad action. LE here are just civies like you and me who just want a paycheck and to keep their heads down. My concerns are always with police forces who have no community roots and are treated like private armies, like Federal and city LE.

[HoreTore]

Police education here is done as a 3-year bachelors degree at a specialized university.


Perhaps that can explain a lot of the difference in violence?

Anyway, my concern isn't really with local LE. I've never heard of no-knock raids in my area and I believe that police strength is over estimated intentionally to deter bad action. LE here are just civies like you and me who just want a paycheck and to keep their heads down. My concerns are always with police forces who have no community roots and are treated like private armies, like Federal and city LE.

The police force in question in this thread is the local police, isn't it?

[Husar]

Police education here is done as a 3-year bachelors degree at a specialized university.

Here as well, you also need to have an Abitur with a decent grade at least. Abitur is what qualifies you for higher education here as we also offer "lower grade" high schools.

[lars573]

Police education here is done as a 3-year bachelors degree at a specialized university.


Perhaps that can explain a lot of the difference in violence?

And here there are 2 year diploma courses that qualify you to be a cop, sheriff, or corrections officer.

The police force in question in this thread is the local police, isn't it?

Yep. And the smaller the PD the more corrupt it tends to be.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Do they have any shells available quickly? And those kinds of helo's could be brought down by small arms fire.


Not quite. The Swedish army has 8 combat battalions and 19 support 50k strength. The NYPD has 35000 uniformed officers, if you see numbers higher than that it's been inflated by including the not fully trained, not allowed a gun under any circumstances, not actually cops auxiliaries and support staff. Hard truth is that even the most anemic euro weenie army would wipe the floor with the police departments from any of the major US cities. They might have a bunch of military gear, but not enough people with the training to use it in battle effectively. Have you watched TDKR?

I might be reluctantly forced to admit that Swedish army is a bit younger and fitter than would be the NYPD's "Bagel brigades."

[ReluctantSamurai]

The notion of police legitimacy and its connection to education levels was underscored not long ago when a fatal officer-involved shooting was successfully defended in both the courts of law and public opinion. Most of the six officers involved had bachelor's degrees, a fact which supported the department's attorney's claim that these officers were smart, well-trained, highly educated critical thinkers who were forced to take the only option left them by the suspect. In addition, after the officers' names and backgrounds were made public, the community rallied around them and supported the department in large part because of its professionalism.

So basically, it helps with public and legal image when faced with litigation

Higher education does not guarantee that a candidate will become a great cop, but it does promote critical thinking

And I suppose all the people who never went to college, or dropped out and started their own successful businesses, can't think critically?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...t_billionaires

And if a higher education does not guarantee a good cop, what is the critical factor that makes the difference between a good one and a bad one? I would suggest it's the personal make-up of the individual. Hire a disturbed individual with a military background that likes to shoot a gun and you get tragedies like the one being discussed here. Hire a well-balanced individual who wants to make a positive impact on societal changes, while making a decent living, and you get a good cop. I think a thorough psychiatric examination would have a better chance of producing a good cop than a college education

largely driven by the voracious appetite of the local police union and city politicians that do not dare challenge these everyday heroes.

And how is the police union any different than any other union when it comes to pensions and such? Just look at what the UAW did to Detroit.

We owe them nothing more, not a higher level of respect than afforded any other government worker and not the benefit of the doubt.

Except you aren't calling a city hall records-keeper when someone is attempting to break into your home....

[Husar]

And if a higher education does not guarantee a good cop, what is the critical factor that makes the difference between a good one and a bad one? I would suggest it's the personal make-up of the individual. Hire a disturbed individual with a military background that likes to shoot a gun and you get tragedies like the one being discussed here. Hire a well-balanced individual who wants to make a positive impact on societal changes, while making a decent living, and you get a good cop. I think a thorough psychiatric examination would have a better chance of producing a good cop than a college education

Education is never a guarantee but a "thorough psychiatric examination" might just result in more cops and non-cops on pills going by current trends.

Giving people a good education and a good mental skill set to deal with problems is not really a bad idea IMO. You can still do the mental examination to find out whether they are more likely to use those learned skills or to go for the gun instead.

[Kadagar_AV]

Geez...

My point with NYPD vs Swedish Army was just a way to point out that cops over the world are currently arming up. That it even GOT to a debate who would win, says more about the situation than the conclusion on the discussion of who would win.

IMHO police are better behaved unarmed, and less risky to themselves and their surroundings.

I wouldn't mind a police force where only certain rapid-response units carried firearms.

[Major Robert Dump]

I really wish I was there because QuickTrip has some delicious hotdogs, and I would love to get my loot on.

[lars573]

We both know you'd pull a muscle in your back tipping a smart car. Then you'd spend the rest of the riot pouring beer into your gas mask.

Geez...

My point with NYPD vs Swedish Army was just a way to point out that cops over the world are currently arming up. That it even GOT to a debate who would win, says more about the situation than the conclusion on the discussion of who would win.

IMHO police are better behaved unarmed, and less risky to themselves and their surroundings.

I wouldn't mind a police force where only certain rapid-response units carried firearms.

Not so. Cops in Canada are armed, to the point that some departments have assault rifles in the cars beside the shot gun. Yet the biggest debate about use of force comes not from shootings, but use of tasers.

[Kadagar_AV]

We both know you'd pull a muscle in your back tipping a smart car. Then you'd spend the rest of the riot pouring beer into your gas mask.


Not so. Cops in Canada are armed, to the point that some departments have assault rifles in the cars beside the shot gun. Yet the biggest debate about use of force comes not from shootings, but use of tasers.

Different cultures, different rules needed.

I didn't talk about a universal solution to every nations problem, I talked about an ideal society.

In todays Sweden I want every single policemen (and twice as many of them) with assorted tactical equipment.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Giving people a good education and a good mental skill set to deal with problems is not really a bad idea IMO

And I would agree with that. Just saying that other factors may be more important when interviewing officer candidates.

[HoreTore]

And I would agree with that. Just saying that other factors may be more important when interviewing officer candidates.

To be admitted to the 3-year bachelors degree in Norway, you have to pass this first.

Further, I do not see how billionaires with low education counters the argument that a higher education improves the behaviour and effectiveness of a cop.

[Major Robert Dump]

I love how these heroic, highly trained police officers

always use the "i was sceeeeeeeered" defense when having to explain why they had to shoot a guy in a wheel chair, or an 80 year old, or a woman in a car, or some teenage girls, etc. The excuses these guys use about PTSD and stress etc are laughable. Still can't believe the LA county deputy was acquitted after shooting the airman in the back while the kid was on the ground. He used the "i was sceeeered there were people around" and said there was low light and shadows and reflections and it made him jumpy and POOF now he has a defense and does no jail time despite there being a video

I also love how they immediately get into a penis measuring contest whenever they find out one is a soldier, probably because they know deep down inside that the soldiers know the cops are big sceeeeered babby and cops need to prove otherwise

[HoreTore]

I love how these heroic, highly trained police officers

always use the "i was sceeeeeeeered" defense when having to explain why they had to shoot a guy in a wheel chair, or an 80 year old, or a woman in a car, or some teenage girls, etc.

That's not relevant when everyone has that same edumacation.

[Major Robert Dump]

Education may help, but that is not the end-all solution. You can go to school and not learn or believe anything, just like you can also not go to school and still have decent morals.

I have knows some cool cops, and it all came down to attitude and how they approached the use of force. I also have family who are police, and they dream of someday getting to shoot someone.

Ultimately it comes down to these men and women thinking that the "sacrifice" they are making somehow means they have the right to decide who lives and dies at a whim, and any false charges they bring are justified. It is the ultimate team mentality. There is zero remorse

[HoreTore]

Education may help, but that is not the end-all solution. You can go to school and not learn or believe anything, just like you can also not go to school and still have decent morals.

Not really relevant. The question is whether or not education improves attitudes, reactions and efficiency.

And I'd say it does.

[Major Robert Dump]

I would say it does, too, but a sociopath or bully will still be a sociopath or bully. Andy Griffith only graduated high school

[Montmorency]

I will go ahead and call PJ's posts here racist, though purely as a knock-down, and not because I mean any particular thing that any one of us might have in mind by it.

More to the point: the attribution of corporate guilt when some ne'er-do-wells take advantage of restive atmosphere and seething masses to indulge in rapine speaks to some unwholesome prejudices...

That said, I find myself growing tense or wary far more in the presence of cops than blacks lately.

And hey, how could I have room in my heart for hate when I recently saw a young black man wearing a striped polo with the top button done? I was so moved that I had the strong impulse to rape and eat his warm corpse.*

*It's how I express affection.

[ReluctantSamurai]

Further, I do not see how billionaires with low education counters the argument that a higher education improves the behaviour and effectiveness of a cop

The context of the original quote by PJ was that higher education leads to better 'critical thinking'. I don't believe that one leads to the other, and the billionaire examples were addressing that point.

Not really relevant. The question is whether or not education improves attitudes, reactions and efficiency.

Better education certainly couldn't hurt, but a personal profile to weed out sociopaths that just want to shoot a gun at someone is better, IMHO.

Ultimately it comes down to these men and women thinking that the "sacrifice" they are making somehow means they have the right to decide who lives and dies at a whim, and any false charges they bring are justified. It is the ultimate team mentality. There is zero remorse

And a professional profiler would have a better chance at identifying 'zero remorse' than a college diploma would.

[HoreTore]

The context of the original quote by PJ was that higher education leads to better 'critical thinking'. I don't believe that one leads to the other, and the billionaire examples were addressing that point.

....And since it's anecdotal in the extreme, I can't see how it matters. Also, are you equating conflict resolution and entrepreneurship? How does that make sense?

Better education certainly couldn't hurt, but a personal profile to weed out sociopaths that just want to shoot a gun at someone is better, IMHO.

Of course you need personal assessment as well, who would argue against that? Still, you need to work with what you have, making sure that what's available to you becomes as good as they can be. That's what the education is for.

And a professional profiler would have a better chance at identifying 'zero remorse' than a college diploma would.

A 'professional profiler' would be even better with a psychology degree.

[Greyblades]

If a man had a psychology degree he would not stoop to being a profiler.

[HopAlongBunny]

6 bullets and no signs of physical altercation; he was guilty of being black :p

http://www.theonion.com/articles/tip...ck-teen,36697/

[ReluctantSamurai]

A 'professional profiler' would be even better with a psychology degree.

If a man had a psychology degree he would not stoop to being a profiler.

Right.

http://maryellenotoole.com/meo/becominganfbiprofiler/

At this time, in order to work as an FBI Profiler in the Behavioral Analysis Unit (BAU), you have to be an FBI Agent. This means you go through the FBI Academy, which is approximately 4 months long. This training is very rigorous and involves classroom training in courses that include psychology, interviewing, and legal issues. You will also be trained in firearms and will go through a challenging physical fitness program.

The FBI requires a four-year college degree in any major in order to apply for the Agent position. Agents in the BAU have had a variety of degrees from Psychology, to Political Science, to Math to Criminal Justice. Some of the BAU profilers have Advanced College Degrees and some do not.

http://www.ehow.com/about_6738642_ed...-profiler.html

There is no mandatory educational requirement for a criminal profiler. Individuals interested in this career might begin with an undergraduate degree in criminology, criminal justice, forensics or psychology

So an individual with a Psych degree might be viewed as taking a step up when becoming a profiler....

Still, you need to work with what you have, making sure that what's available to you becomes as good as they can be. That's what the education is for.

A college education is not a panacea for all that is wrong with the world. It doesn't necessarily make you a better person, nor does it guarantee that you become expert in "conflict resolution". The billionaire list was simply to illustrate that one can succeed in life without a diploma.

One more time....education CAN certainly improve the quality of law enforcement officers. A screening process that involves a thorough personal assessment would be an even better method.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Can anyone here confirm what was said in the video that in the military you are not supposed to point your weapon until you are about to fire?

[Montmorency]

In other news, Brown had no prior nigga-record.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...ound/14023731/

[Rhyfelwyr]

In other news, Brown had no prior nigga-record.

http://www.ksdk.com/story/news/local...ound/14023731/

So is that link right? It is confirmed that there was a struggle where Brown tried to take the officer's gun (at least according to police reports)?

[Sir Moody]

So is that link right? It is confirmed that there was a struggle where Brown tried to take the officer's gun (at least according to police reports)?

As I understand it according to the Police Reports that is how it happened - according to several witnesses however it is not...