Should I go to this political rally, as democrat?

[drone]

Smith v Collin, the Skokie case. Even idiots and bigots have a right to speak, if only to show the world their ignorance.

[Kadagar_AV]

Eh, you could read their party program (English version even! Language traitors!!!!). They do have a homepage. SD got notable facist leanings, SVP is facists, down to questioning democracy (to build something better, somehow).

Really, the cops are there. And they're allowed to have a homepage. That's enough for you to accept for them to say their word. After all, the opposition are also saying theirs.

Replace SVP with an ISIS recruitment drive. Still want to go out and defend them? I can add that they're in some ways the Swedish version of ISIS (ISIS is obsessed with their version of purity for example).
People are people, no matter were they live. What changes are the cultural manifistation.

**** Yeah I would listen to an ISIS political drive, was it outside of where I lived.

I also defend their right to be heard on even terms with anyone else. What's your point?

Seems like you have a rather shady definition of "democracy".


The SvP party program is EXTREMELY up to definitions.

Sure they mightbe the evil that some of the leftist media claim.

Or they can actually defend their views in a democratic light?

I don't know? That's. Why. I. Think. It's. Right. For. People. To. Hear. Them. Out.

Specially if all it would take was to step outside of their house. IMHO the least you can do if you want to know why you are for/against something.



EDIT: Another thing that annoyed me... To call them anti-democratic - As that would be a reason to not listen to them. Or are you under the belief that a democracy only lives and thrives if people completely ignore other ideas?

Should one allow violent opposition to make one NOT listen to ideas?

Now that's a scary view of democracy if I ever heard one.

[HoreTore]

Smith v Collin, the Skokie case. Even idiots and bigots have a right to speak, if only to show the world their ignorance.

Bigots and idiots who make calls for violence, however, do not. Court case after court case have settled that. SvP Has done just that.

Further, we are not debating their right to speak. Noone is trying to cancel their rally. Instead, people are going to use their freedom of speech to clarify just how retarded these ideas are.

The extreme right have a weird version of "free speech", where it's an infringement of their right to free speech if people show up at their rally. Bloody crybabies.

That they have expunged the jew-hate from their program, which they had just a few years ago(and they are still the same people), just makes it clear that they have absolutely no intention whatsoever of telling anything other than lies.

EDIT: The jew-hate is between the lines though. Only 'genetically European people' are to live in Sweden. That means the Jews have to go. Further, you really don't have to be very creative to understand which group of people the sentence on "no non-Swede in position of power"-sentence is aimed at. It's not Norwegians, Finns or Danes.

It's nice to see that Kad is finally out of the closet as a full-blown Nazi, though. Can't say I'm very surprised.

[Ironside]

Or they can actually defend their views in a democratic light?

I don't know? That's. Why. I. Think. It's. Right. For. People. To. Hear. Them. Out.

Specially if all it would take was to step outside of their house. IMHO the least you can do if you want to know why you are for/against something.

They. Have. That. Right. Legal right that is. And police protection proves it. Worthy of listening to? Your choise. But standing with them isn't a statement of listening, but supporting.

The opposition also have the right to shun them and show that their ideas aren't worthy of a serious discussion.

The problem with a debate is that it often validates both sides. One may be weaker, but both are valid. And politician speak is often needed to be interpreted. It's not the flaws of the current way, nor is it what ideal you want to reach. It's how you reach it. Leaving that out, and you can still sound good, while hiding the real message.

[Kadagar_AV]

They. Have. That. Right. Legal right that is. And police protection proves it. Worthy of listening to? Your choise. But standing with them isn't a statement of listening, but supporting.

Listening to their speech is not in any way supporting them.

Walking with them on their political march (as many Swedish partys organise) would be showing support. Can you tell the difference?

The opposition also have the right to shun them and show that their ideas aren't worthy of a serious discussion.

Of course, I don't argue against that. I am arguing leftist activists trying to STOP them altogether, which is what's happening. Look at the Malmö rally.

I will never ever condone violence in election campaigns. Looking at what happened in Malmö, you accept violence to keep people silent and afraid to listen?

The problem with a debate is that it often validates both sides. One may be weaker, but both are valid. And politician speak is often needed to be interpreted.

This just shows the world how the ****** up people of Sweden generally thinks.

You SERIOUSLY need someone to interpret what is said?

You don't bother to hear political partys out, you just go by what interpreters (read: media) say?

What a retarded argument in the western world 2014.

It's not the flaws of the current way, nor is it what ideal you want to reach. It's how you reach it. Leaving that out, and you can still sound good, while hiding the real message.

Let people make up their own damn minds. What's so hard to get? Let people listen to what's happening at their doorstep, without being afraid of being physically injured.

[Fragony]

Having read up I got to agree with Horetore about these guys, sounds like the real thing

[Kadagar_AV]

Having read up I got to agree with Horetore about these guys, sounds like the real thing

What part about it should keep me from listening?



AGAIN: I in no way endorse their view. I just like to hear what their political stance is without anything between me and them.

I think the drone quote was spot on.

[Fragony]

What part about it should keep me from listening?



AGAIN: I in no way endorse their view. I just like to hear what their political stance is without anything between me and them.

I think the drone quote was spot on.

I understand your motivations are different, would still avoid them myself though. Wouldn't do them the favour.

[HoreTore]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Noone is preventing SvP from having a demonstration. It is within their rights. Likewise, noone can prevent a counter-demonstration.

Kaagar's view of democracy and free speech is that we allow Nazi rallies, but ban counter-demonstrations. What a delightfully delusional view of how free speech works.

Re the need for interpretation: Kadagar missed the obvious references to jew-bashing clouded within SvP's politico-speech, and then claims no interpretation is needed and that everyone understands exactly what they are saying. Yay.

[Fragony]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Noone is preventing SvP from having a demonstration. It is within their rights. Likewise, noone can prevent a counter-demonstration.

Kaagar's view of democracy and free speech is that we allow Nazi rallies, but ban counter-demonstrations. What a delightfully delusional view of how free speech works.

These counter-demonstration are almost always violent, Kads has a better balanced view on free speech I'd say.

Kads quotes Voltaire, I quote Churchil; the facists of the future will be called anti-facists.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

In no way should their rally be prevented.

Curtailing their rights to speech is only justifiable when and if they begin to create a "clear and present" danger to the community. Incitement to violence should be stopped. Statements of any creed -- even a demonstrably stupid one like this party's -- do not automatically equate that.

The 10,000 opponents should show up, completely surround the silly little we wanna be racists rally at about 15m distance, and silently -- just as the rally commences -- turn and face away. Do that twice with the Swede media watching and they will opt out of public rallys of their own choice...so as not to be humiliated.

[Kadagar_AV]

These counter-demonstration are almost always violent, Kads has a better balanced view on free speech I'd say.

Kads quotes Voltaire, I quote Churchil; the facists of the future will be called anti-facists.

That's kind of spot on. Then again, Churchill wasn't really a n00b.

In no way should their rally be prevented.

Curtailing their rights to speech is only justifiable when and if they begin to create a "clear and present" danger to the community. Incitement to violence should be stopped. Statements of any creed -- even a demonstrably stupid one like this party's -- do not automatically equate that.

The 10,000 opponents should show up, completely surround the silly little we wanna be racists rally at about 15m distance, and silently -- just as the rally commences -- turn and face away. Do that twice with the Swede media watching and they will opt out of public rallys of their own choice...so as not to be humiliated.

Yey :)

I would totally support that line of action.

As is, I more than happily feel like taking a step out of my front door to protect real democracy, instead of the democrazy Ironside and others propose.

[Kadagar_AV]

Ah, Swedes and Norwegians fighting again.

Nah. HT as the only member here, when I had the "accident" with my hand... Was the only one to state he didn't give a ****.

Having been this long on these boards, I have learnt to accept differences. But I still see Orghas as part of my flock.

He broke that trust, and thus I simply don't care what he has to say. It's as easy as that, and have nothing to do with national borders. I think he is a bad person. Period.

*puts myself with hands behind my back to accept the mod stick about to hit me for a personal remark*

[Husar]

Sounds a lot like our NPD, which is our legit Nazi party. Although only inofficially. Why you ask?
Because being a Nazi is inherently undemocratic and if they released their true party program here it would include getting rid of democracy and such a program would not make them a democratic party even though they currently work within the democratic system.
Basically if they showed their true face very openly, they'd get banned as a party.

In Sweden that may be different, maybe you can even have a dictator party that promises to install a ruthless dictator once elected but you still have to ask yourself whether they are really a democratic party or whether that's just a farce until they get enough power to install whatever system they really want.

And the antifas, even though I'm not very fond of them either, also have the right to voice their opinions, if they happen to be a lot more people then so be it. We have the same kind of "issue" here in Germany as well and the police try to protect both demonstrations and to prevent them from meeting eachother because that ends in carnage. The only people I'm sorry for are the policement who have to stand between two groups of knuckleheads...

[Fragony]

Don't know how it is in Germany, but if the few neo's we have here, not more than 100 probably it is always them who get attacked, I don't call that voicing an opinion. Let these Hitler-fanboys wave their flags and make fun of them, it's pretty pathetic. They are pretty much harmless no matter how sick their thoughts are. The extreme-left is actually dangerous, our intelligence-service and police aren't interested in the neo-nazi's at all.

[Ironside]

Listening to their speech is not in any way supporting them.

Walking with them on their political march (as many Swedish partys organise) would be showing support. Can you tell the difference?

It would be showing interest. With the era of homepages, that's more to listen to their speech, rather than learning what they stand for. Honestly I got no idea how those speeches looks like. How do the the police differ between audience and protestors that aren't yet active in protesting?

Of course, I don't argue against that. I am arguing leftist activists trying to STOP them altogether, which is what's happening. Look at the Malmö rally.

I will never ever condone violence in election campaigns. Looking at what happened in Malmö, you accept violence to keep people silent and afraid to listen?

No, I'm not fond of troublemakers pretending to do social justice as an excuse for violence. The same people sometimes end up joining the nazi parties later on to get their violence kick that way. Both sides got people going on eachother hooligan style. Thing is, they're only a few % of the protesters. So what about the rights of the 95+% protesters?

This just shows the world how the ****** up people of Sweden generally thinks.

You SERIOUSLY need someone to interpret what is said?

You don't bother to hear political partys out, you just go by what interpreters (read: media) say?

What a retarded argument in the western world 2014.

No, I need to interpret what has been said. Politician speech is filled with things that need interpretation. SVP got 6 pages on how they want to improve the goverment and criticism of our current democracy. I can agree with them on some points, but in reality they say nothing on the how, making it empty, nice sounding rethorics.

Add that some sources can be taken at face value, while some can't. It's way preferble to have gotten hints that some messages might have way more bias than normal, since very few will go through the effort of making a very through source checking for everything. See that report that found a link between autism in black boys and vaccination, thanks to beating the data with a hammer throughly enough. That's boderline lies with a specific purpose.

Don't know how it is in Germany, but if the few neo's we have here, not more than 100 probably it is always them who get attacked, I don't call that voicing an opinion. Let these Hitler-fanboys wave their flags and make fun of them, it's pretty pathetic. They are pretty much harmless no matter how sick their thoughts are. The extreme-left is actually dangerous, our intelligence-service and police aren't interested in the neo-nazi's at all.

You sure? Political violence are about 50-50 in Sweden. The violent left is probably about the same size, but can hide better in the way larger, non-violent left.

[Fragony]

Yeah I am sure but I can't speak for Sweden, the extreme-right is non-existant here, if there are more than a hundred I would be surprised. The extreme-left lashes out at anything that doesn't suit them though, they are well organised and well funded, have former RAF members in their company and other nutjobs who only understand violence. If it's 50/50 than I understand the lefties in Scandinavia better, but they aren't any less hostile here despite a non-existing problem, they are anti-everything. I would certainly consider them the new facists, same tactics, intimidation, threats, mob-rule.

I like Kads take, agree to disagree but still protecting what's it's all about to be living in a matured society. Myself, extreme left/right, screw them all.

[Kralizec]

Yeah, it really was of benefit to German democracy that the Nuremburg rallies went unmolested by filthy lefties.

Odd example. The Weimar republic was a dysfunctional democracy and one clear sign of that was very frequent clashes between militant sympathizers of reactionary parties and communists.

Nothing wrong with counter-demonstrations per se, though. If the Swedish police do their job and ensure that these 'nazis' can hold their rally, fine.

[Beskar]

You should attend it as a Republican.

[HopAlongBunny]

Attend it, sure.
Just remember your "observer status" means nothing to the droogs who are just there for a fight.
They show up at all public gatherings from bars to rallies, and violence is what they want; make friends with the bouncers

[Kadagar_AV]

I decided not to go... Probably a good choice, as all there were catalogued by the police.

Only 4 policemen were injured though, and there wasn't overly much riot. So I guess we call it a good day in the democratic kingdom of Sweden, huh?

[Fragony]

I decided not to go... Probably a good choice, as all there were catalogued by the police.

Only 4 policemen were injured though, and there wasn't overly much riot. So I guess we call it a good day in the democratic kingdom of Sweden, huh?

Glad you are ok. I guess I don't have to ask who started rioting.

[Kadagar_AV]

Glad you are ok. I guess I don't have to ask who started rioting.

You wouldn't... But I'll specify that it was extreme leftists for others who wonder though... ****ing idiots.

I feel sorry for the police... They were attacked for "defending the nazis", whereas they probably hated being there, and just had as their job to, say, protect democracy and stuff.

I don't get why leftist protesters were so against the police separating them. What did they want to do if they reached the other demonstrants? Kill them? Assault them?

My guess is that they didn't want to sit down for a talk over a cup of tea.

This election campaign are almost of Ukranian standards thus far... Oh well, just 2 more weeks to go till the election. Hope no one gets killed.

[Fragony]

The funny thing about lefties is that they think they can do everything because they are right ;)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

[Kadagar_AV]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

It's kind of hard to tell... They all had hoodies up, scarves over their lower head and quite often sunglasses...

None of them were black though, from what I have seen.

30 of the worst were "professional" protesters from Denmark. The rest were just middle-class white kids AFAIK. Kind of like hooligans in football, we have these hooligan protesters.

Real men use guns



The protesters only breached the police line once... But then the police showed them some real butthurt

We talk cavalry, riot shields, teargas, K9 units... You name it. After that the leftists weren't as interested and instead destroyed some private business and threatened people who weren't protesting enough.

[Fragony]

Out of curiosity, did you see a lot of ethnic minorities amongst the antifascists?

Lol, the antifa is whiter than the Ku Klux Klan. They are always angry, always violent. Bored rich kids who can afford to be a proffesional activist.

[HoreTore]

Was the only one to state he didn't give a ****.

lol, no.

You started a sympathy thread, but when I checked it, it had descended into one of your usual racist rants. When called on your BS, you attempted to use your injury as justification. As it had no relevance to the points made, it was something I didn't care about.

You then went into full emo-mode and filled up my inbox with crying and swearing.

[HoreTore]

Lol, the antifa is whiter than the Ku Klux Klan. They are always angry, always violent. Bored rich kids who can afford to be a proffesional activist.

'Bored rich kids' fill up the tourist quota. The hard core of the various anarchist organizations are mostly composed of social outcasts who ran away from home at around age 16.

A demonstration of 10.000, however, will reach far, far beyond the organizations.

[Fragony]

'Bored rich kids' fill up the tourist quota. The hard core of the various anarchist organizations are mostly composed of social outcasts who ran away from home at around age 16.

A demonstration of 10.000, however, will reach far, far beyond the organizations.

Haha do you actually believe that yourself. The hardcore antifa are recruited at universities, they come from well-off families.