[Hellenistic Poleis] Can they be upgraded without a Metropolis?

[QuintusSertorius]

Firstly, I love the culture mechanics, they give you something to actually pay attention to and work towards with a settlement. It adds a lot of depth to settlement management, rather than just thinking about economy and recruitment. That said, the mechanics behind it are about as clear as mud, in the absence of a guide.

The building browser says you can upgrade a Minor Hellenistic Polis into a second tier one with 49% Hellenistic Polities, a Forum (presumably that'll be amended to a Greek name later) and the third tier of factional government. For Hellenistic Polis to Metropolis, it's 69% Hellenistic Polities and some other bits I don't remember right now. Is that all that is required? As in can you do this through organic growth over time?

Or do you have to own a Metropolis from which you can send colonists? Or is this just to create a new Minor Hellenistic Polis in a settlement that doesn't already have one?

[Antigonos Karchedonios]

This is how I understood it (not sure): if you own a metropolis (level 3 polis building, not the city with 24k inhabitants) you get a "colonist point" (CP) every 12 or 16 turn. With this colonist point you can either build a new polis (if possible), UPGRADE an existing one (minor polis -> polis -> metropolis). OR you can establish a hellenistic military colony (again 3 upgradeable "buildings", CP needed for upgarding.)
Both colonies will slowly increase the level of "hellenistic polis" religion and you need a certain level of this culture in the province to be able to upgrade the polis/colony.

is this understandable, and more important is this even correct?

EDIT: Additional the lower levels of the polis will stop converting at a fixed level. So you need to upgrade to increase the level of "hellenistic polis" religion further.

[bisthebis]

You can upgrade poleis without colonists (but not found a new one : You need a colonist to build a minor polis, but not to upgrade it to polis or metropolis.) as long as they have enough greek culture (69%)
Epeiros can build metropolis in Ambrakia at the start of the game (it just needs to have enough population, walls, market etc, so you can't in first turn) for example. The government required for a metropolis just require to have a minor polis (or more)
So, Metropoleis are only required if you want to spread culture from scratch. If you conquer a region without greek culture, you'll need 4 colonists ; 3 for the 3 levels of colony + 1 for the minor polis.
If you play KH I think you cannot colonize, so this applies for Hellenistic kingdoms (epeiros, macedonia, egypt, pergamon, bactria, seleucides) and KH can build poleis if there's enough greek culture.

Bosporan kingdom's governements buildings increase greek culture, but unfortunately, the last tier governemnt caps culture at 65%, not enough for a metropolis.

What faction are you playing ?



EDIT : to clarify, if you don't play bosphore, the only way to increase culture is to build colonies :
1st level caps at 30%
2nd at 50%
3rd at 70%
If you haven't reached the cap, you will gain 1% every 2 turns.
You gain 1 colonist every 16 turn per metropolis owned

[QuintusSertorius]

I'm playing Epeiros, but without any of the original settlements (it's a migration game). I've got Massalia and Emporion which already have a Small Hellenistic Polis each, I was wondering if they would eventually be upgrade-able, even though I don't have a Metropolis anywhere. Hellenistic Polities culture has been increasing in both over time - both now at 31%. I was wondering if it will be possible to make them a Hellenistic Polis when it reaches 49%.

[Thoras]

I was able to upgrade a minor polis in Sinope as Bosporos so it is possible(I don't have a Metropolis.)

Bosporan kingdom's governements buildings increase greek culture, but unfortunately, the last tier governemnt caps culture at 65%, not enough for a metropolis.

Can I look that up somewhere?And at what level does the Paradynastic Rule cap?

Ok edit is that the cap`?

religion_level bonus 1 requires factions { f_bosporan, } and not region_religion rel_h 55 and event_counter ecReligionUpdate 1

religion_level bonus 1 requires factions { f_bosporan, } and not region_religion rel_h 65 and event_counter ecReligionUpdate 1

Because that is weird I have a Paradynastic Government in my Capital and it has 60% Hellenic Culture.
But it should be capped at 55%.Is there some other influx?Like the ammount of provinces or the ammount of Hellenistic Poleis?

[bisthebis]

@quintus : It's strange that you managed to get 31% if it was with the first colony level. Did you cheat to get a colony ? Which level ? Or did you get conversion without hellenic colony ? Poleis don't convert culture, at least in theory and EDB.
@Thoras : Did you upgrade it to a polis or to a metropolis ? Sinope starts with 60%, so you have the 49% for polis, but not metropolis. If you got a metropolis it's strange.

The EBD line you quoted is indeed what i'm talking about, and in EDB the only buildings spreading hellenic culture are colonies and bosporan governments. I don't understand how it still increases...

I read that in Britannia, spies and geenral's management spread culture. Could you test and check if a province without governor and no spies still spreads ?

[Antigonos Karchedonios]

@bisthebis: all right, that makes it much clearer thank you. My experience with the hellenisitc world is a 150 turns pergamon campaign (paused now) where you start directly with a metropolis, so i got far more colonists than i needed and didn't always pay attention when the advisor was telling me that yet another colonist is ready...

So polis/metropolis need no new colonists. But do military settler colonies need one to be upgraded or don't they either?

EDIT: I think i found it myself. helenistic military colonies need a certain lavel of farming and a colony point each time they want to upgade.

[bisthebis]

Yes you need a colony point for each upgrade in the colony. (And indeed farms etc.)

[QuintusSertorius]

@quintus : It's strange that you managed to get 31% if it was with the first colony level. Did you cheat to get a colony ? Which level ? Or did you get conversion without hellenic colony ? Poleis don't convert culture, at least in theory and EDB.

No colony involved. Massalia and Emporion both start with a Minor Polis, I've just built Epirote buildings there, and the level has increased. Same is happening in Alalia, which has no Polis building.

[bisthebis]

I don't understand why...

[QuintusSertorius]

I don't understand why...

As I said, I own no Metropolis and have no colony points. But the Hellenistic Polities level is rising, same goes everywhere else I hold. In the case of Massalia, it went from 25% to the present 31%, same again in Emporion. In Alalia it's gone from 20% to the present 27%.

[bisthebis]

I don't get this conversion, it's weird

[Arjos]

I might be wrong, but government buildings too should influence the conversion...
And certain other buildings as well, but maybe not for all factions. Like the farms for factions with pastoralism camps...

BTW @QuintusSertorius apparently it is hard-coded for the building effects to just say the % of conversion, but it cannot specify to what culture...
We will have to add a line in the description of pretty much every building...

[bisthebis]

might be wrong, but government buildings too should influence the conversion...

In EDB, only bosporan governments and colonies give hellenic culture.

[Thoras]

@Thoras : Did you upgrade it to a polis or to a metropolis ? Sinope starts with 60%, so you have the 49% for polis, but not metropolis. If you got a metropolis it's strange.

I was able to upgrade a minor polis in Sinope as Bosporos so it is possible

To a normal Polis ;)
My Capital is now at 61%,and yes I have spies and gouverneurs in all of my cities,I try it with the next city I conquer.

[Arjos]

In EDB, only bosporan governments and colonies give hellenic culture.

That does not sound right, of Pontos I'm certain several govs do convert...
I'm sorry, but our modders are awfully busy, both in the internal fora and in RL, it should be an entry like religion level bonus or something...

Unless you are speaking only about hellenic culture, which could be the case then...
Each faction is pretty unique when it comes to conversion...

[Thoras]

Ok I have a problem...:
Sometimes I had the bug that I could build a minor polis and a colonie in the same turn ,in all of my cites,playing as Bosporos without having Metropolis nor do I get an adviser message.I can aslo build them unlimited without any cap.But normaly it vanishes once I start the next turn.

My current problem is that it doesn't vanish anymore,coud anybody test my save if it is the same for other players?
It's fine in the current turn,but after that it is permanent.
Bosporos3.sav

[bisthebis]

That does not sound right, of Pontos I'm certain several govs do convert...
I'm sorry, but our modders are awfully busy, both in the internal fora and in RL, it should be an entry like religion level bonus or something...

Unless you are speaking only about hellenic culture, which could be the case then...
Each faction is pretty unique when it comes to conversion...

Bosporan government is the only government that gives hellenic culture but indeed there are governments that give other cultures (I've found haysdan, sarmatian, taksashila, lugiones, arevaci, boii, nabatean, and others)

[QuintusSertorius]

Bosporan government is the only government that gives hellenic culture but indeed there are governments that give other cultures (I've found haysdan, sarmatian, taksashila, lugiones, arevaci, boii, nabatean, and others)

Why then is the Hellenistic Polities proportion rising in all my settlements, regardless of whether or not there's a Hellenistic Poleis there?

[bisthebis]

capability	;;; Recruitment pool - 8 * 0.03
            {
				recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry hippakontistai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry baktrioi hippotoxotai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_baktria, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.09  3  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hoplitai haploi"  1  0.09  3  0  requires factions { f_kh, }
                recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry akontistai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
                recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry toxotai"  1  0.03  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
                happiness_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, }
				trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { f_kh, }
            }

There's no bonus in polis, so the only reason I can see is hard-coded spreading, or via agents

[QuintusSertorius]

capability	;;; Recruitment pool - 8 * 0.03
            {
				recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry hippakontistai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic cavalry baktrioi hippotoxotai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_baktria, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.09  3  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
				recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry hoplitai haploi"  1  0.09  3  0  requires factions { f_kh, }
                recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry akontistai"  1  0.06  2  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
                recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry toxotai"  1  0.03  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_kh, f_seleukid, f_ptolemaioi, f_baktria, f_pontos, f_pergamon, }
                happiness_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { cul_1, cul_3, }
				trade_base_income_bonus bonus 1 requires factions { f_kh, }
            }

There's no bonus in polis, so the only reason I can see is hard-coded spreading, or via agents

My agents are never in my settlements, so it must be the former.

[adishee]

On this general topic -- that of not understanding albeit still enjoying the new social buildings: I'm playing as Epirus, and I've recently captured Athens (mind you, I wanted to stay out of Greece proper, but I kept getting attacked by the Makedonians from Thessaly and Attica; although to be fair I did take their capital. So my only recourse was to pacify the region. I'm no tyrant, I've let the Makedonians retain Corinth and Sparta after they sued for peace and secured trade rights -- who knows how long that'll last, though). I gather from this thread that, because Athens is a metropolis I now have an offer to install a military colony at my capital Ambrakia (the traditional Epirot capital, I haven't moved it despite capturing far more prestigious cities). Ambrakia is a polis, always was. So my question is: how is it that I should have the option to send a military-colonial population to a patently Hellenic city? It is already completely Hellenized, and more, Diadochoi-Hellenized.

Ambrakia could use the population boost, but I don't think a settler colony even adds population, does it?

And while I'm thinking about it: what ever happened to the basic, levy phalangitai from EB1? Are they still in there, or not added yet?

[bisthebis]

You will need the 3rd level colony + a metropolis in a region to get best government there, and you will get more troops there (more often, I don't think you'll get new ones)
The first level of colony is required for the supervised hellenic administration. So in terms of gaemplay, you shuild build it. Historically, i'm not sure.

about phalanx, in EB2 i only know illyrian phalanx, generic phazlanx, and machimoi/pantodapoi. no deuteroi i think

[QuintusSertorius]

The option to send a colony out means you can build military settlers, and upgrade to the highest forms of Epirote government. You can't do that without colonists.

[Arjos]

It is also possible that owning a settlement, by M2TW engine alone, converts the province to the faction's "religion/culture"...

[QuintusSertorius]

It is also possible that owning a settlement, by M2TW engine alone, converts the province to the faction's "religion/culture"...

I suspect that is what's going on in my case. A hardcoded "religious conversion" over time.

EDIT: Just to report, Hellenistic Polities is still rising in all my settlements. At 33% in Massalia and Emporion, and 28% in Alalia. It's even risen from 9% to 10% in newly-taken Nora.

[GenosseGeneral]

The culture system is based on MTW2's religion system right? From what I know, governors used to convert the populace to their factions religion, depending on their level of 'piety'.
I do not know, whether that mechanism is still in place, but from my observation, governors do have a conversion effect.

[bisthebis]

And what is piety in EB2 ? influence ?

[joshmahurin]

Quite possibly

[QuintusSertorius]

Or maybe it's what Confidence does? Since Influence already has a very direct and obvious impact on managing settlements.

On the question, I saw an upgrade become available in my brief game with Sinope. For some reason, despite having polis_two in the descr_strat.txt, it only had a Minor Hellenistic Polis when I took it, but for 10000 mnai I had the option of upgrading it to a Hellenistic Polis.