Anti-abortionists don't believe that life begins at conception.

[HoreTore]

Those heavily opposed to abortion will always claim that life begins at conception, and that a fetus is entitled to the same rights and protections as a human.

This is a lie, they do not believe this.

If we are to take their claim to be true, the US government kills 1.2 million humans every single year. And their response? Wave a couple of banners and write some angry letters. Is that anywhere near a reasonable response to the yearly murder of so many human beings? No, it is not. We invade entire countries for the deaths of a couple of thousands. If the belief of the anti-abortionists were genuine, they would be going mental.

Their fight is not for the sanctity of life. It is simply good old misogyny. They desire to keep young women in their place.

Let's illustrate this with an example:

Say a fertilization clinic is on fire. An anti-abortionist runs into the building to save as many lives as he can. He runs through the corridor and faces two glass doors. One door leads into a room filled with newborns. The other room is filled with tubes of inseminated eggs. He knows he will only have the time to go into one of the rooms. If his beliefs are genuine, that all life is worthy of the same protection and that life begins at conception, he will run to save the tubes as he will be able to carry more tubes than babies. However, barring severe mental illness, he will run for the babies.

Liar.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I would save the newborns. It would be better to reduce suffering as well as life-loss. Life does begin at conception, but there are shades. I would run into a building to save women and children, but not men, because I believe that some lives have a greater value than others - but all have value.

So, life clearly does begin at conception - but the life and health of the mother takes presidence

[Brenus]

An amoeba, a cell are lives. However we don't really care or their protection. Anti-abortionists are just bench of people wanting to impose their "moral" system on others.
Most of the time, their concern about the sanctity of Human Life stops right at the door of Death Chamber for Criminals.

[HoreTore]

but all have value.

Judging by your inaction, clearly a fetus has next to no value.

You desired to invade a country and kill everyone responsible for the deaths of around 3500 of your countrymen(and rightfully so, I might add). If we say that the threshold for this action is at 3000, and that in the event of the deaths of 2999 people on 9/11 would have triggered the same response as the 1.2 million 'killed' by abortion doctors yearly, we end up with the value of a fetus being equal to 1/400th of the value of a grown human.

I can agree with that.

[Fragony]

Tell my mate who's girlfriend is 3 months pregnant that it's is not his daughter but a lump of cells.

[Montmorency]

Well, yeah, it simply comes down to the fact that some life has less value than other life, as tacitly proven by the sentiments of millions of pet owners everywhere. Just because some life is human life doesn't suddenly make it more valuable than any other life except in the specific case of women's comfort and civil autonomy - for anti-abortionists.

Horetore, you do realize these people don't have to be up in arms, right? They're pretty slowly-but-surely winning the 'battle' against abortion rights throughout the United States ATM.

Why get violent when you're already winning and doing so would hinder progress towards that victory?

[Montmorency]

Tell my mate who's girlfriend is 3 months pregnant that it's is not his daughter but a lump of cells.

You're a lump of cells. So what?

[ICantSpellDawg]

We are winning the fight because the unborn are clearly alive and human. Their cognition and sensory perception have always been in dispute, but while this does call into question the order of precedence of lives to be saved in a fire, we as a species tend to save the youngest first. The unborn are the youngest, and many of them feel pain, arguably dream and suck their thumb. It is arbitrary that it might be legal to kill a 7-9 month infant based on their location when the same child unenclosed by womb would be recognized to have human rights.

I'm not in favor of the death penalty except in a case of defensive attempt to stop serious or violent crimes (is shooting an attacker, shooting an arsonist, shooting a burglar, etc). The system of incarceration is both more awful and also offers opportunities for personal fulfillment through education, community - in spite of how clearly broken the existing system is.

[HoreTore]

We are winning the fight because the unborn are clearly alive and human. Their cognition and sensory perception have always been in dispute, but while this does call into question the order of precedence of lives to be saved in a fire, we as a species tend to save the youngest first. The unborn are the youngest, and many of them feel pain, arguably dream and suck their thumb. It is arbitrary that it might be legal to kill a 7-9 month infant based on their location when the same child unenclosed by womb would be recognized to have human rights.

So where is your actions taken to prevent the annual 'deaths' of 1.2 million humans...?

Would you have been so restrained if Obama ordered the deaths of 1.2 actual humans? I think not.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So where is your actions taken to prevent the annual 'deaths' of 1.2 million humans...?

Would you have been so restrained if Obama ordered the deaths of 1.2 actual humans? I think not.

I support organizations that attempt to de-legitimize the the legal acceptance. My parents organize a bus load of people to drive to Washington every year and they have adopted 2 children. Abortion is a travesty and a disgrace, but my money is better off going to CRS to alleviate suffering and death. Either way, abortion is an injustice on the scale of other mass killings. Again, clinal levels of suffering.

[HoreTore]

I support organizations that attempt to de-legitimize the the legal acceptance. My parents organize a bus load of people to drive to Washington every year and they have adopted 2 children. Abortion is a travesty and a disgrace, but my money is better off going to CRS to alleviate suffering and death. Either way, abortion is an injustice on the scale of other mass killings. Again, clinal levels of suffering.

....and yet you do next to nothing about it.

I hardly believe you would have opted for a couple of protest buses if Obama opened a US Auschwitz facility.

Either you are not really that opposed to mass murder in the scale of millions of people, or you don't really believe that fetuses are humans.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the OP was directed at those who equate abortion with murder and the holocaust and such(specifically this guy). You do not seem to be one of those.

[The Lurker Below]

Fertilization clinics have a room full of newborns?

Anti-abortion = life begins at conception. Generalization not accepted.

A court might understand and empathize with your sentiment here, but this case would be thrown out.

[HoreTore]

Fertilization clinics have a room full of newborns?

Anti-abortion = life begins at conception. Generalization not accepted.

A court might understand and empathize with your sentiment here, but this case would be thrown out.

1. Yup, this hypothetical clinic does.

2. I am only dealing with those anti-abortionists who make that claim. For this thread, I don't care about the others. I am not making a general abortion claim here.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Those opposed to abortion will always claim that life begins at conception, and that a fetus is entitled to the same rights and protections as a human.

This is a lie, they do not believe this.

If we are to take their claim to be true, the US government kills 1.2 million humans every single year. And their response? Wave a couple of banners and write some angry letters. Is that anywhere near a reasonable response to the yearly murder of so many human beings? No, it is not. We invade entire countries for the deaths of a couple of thousands. If the belief of the anti-abortionists were genuine, they would be going mental.

Their fight is not for the sanctity of life. It is simply good old misogyny. They desire to keep young women in their place.

Let's illustrate this with an example:

Say a fertilization clinic is on fire. An anti-abortionist runs into the building to save as many lives as he can. He runs through the corridor and faces two glass doors. One door leads into a room filled with newborns. The other room is filled with tubes of inseminated eggs. He knows he will only have the time to go into one of the rooms. If his beliefs are genuine, that all life is worthy of the same protection and that life begins at conception, he will run to save the tubes as he will be able to carry more tubes than babies. However, barring severe mental illness, he will run for the babies.

Liar.

Would only be a logical dilemma were the abortion opponent aware of the status of the inseminated eggs. Discerning status by visual inspection would be difficult at best.

Even presuming the knowledge of the status of the tube contents, saving the newborns might be viewed as more practical as they are at a phase of life that might allow them to continue life unassisted for a while which would not be true of the tubed lives. Triage is never fun.


And some of the abortion opponents have gone "mental" as you label it.

[HoreTore]

Would only be a logical dilemma were the abortion opponent aware of the status of the inseminated eggs. Discerning status by visual inspection would be difficult at best.

Even presuming the knowledge of the status of the tube contents, saving the newborns might be viewed as more practical as they are at a phase of life that might allow them to continue life unassisted for a while which would not be true of the tubed lives. Triage is never fun.


And some of the abortion opponents have gone "mental" as you label it.

Let's say there's a huge neon sign above said door saying "ONLY SUCCESSFULLY IMPREGNATED EGGS INSIDE". And he would be able to save 20 tubes at least for every baby he saves. I can't see how a baby being able to survive on its own makes any kind of difference to the anti-abortionist in his propaganda. There, he makes the claim that a baby's ability to survive on its own does NOT make it more valuable than the fetus/egg.

Still, the details are not the point. The point is that even a hardcore anti-abortionist views the living as having a higher value than the unborn, which is the opposite of the 'abortion is murder'-propaganda.

[Husar]

Well, of course a human will regard something that looks like a human as more human than something that doesn't, like an egg.
That's probably more a matter of how our brains work than what people actually believe. To call them liars because of that is quite theatrical.

If there is a fire and your girlfriend and your gay friend are caught in it and you save your girlfriend, does that mean that you think gays do not have the same right to live? And if you save your gay friend, does that mean you are misogynistic?

[ICantSpellDawg]

....and yet you do next to nothing about it.

I hardly believe you would have opted for a couple of protest buses if Obama opened a US Auschwitz facility.

Either you are not really that opposed to mass murder in the scale of millions of people, or you don't really believe that fetuses are humans.

EDIT: Just to be clear, the OP was directed at those who equate abortion with murder and the holocaust and such(specifically this guy). You do not seem to be one of those.

On the contrary. I believe that the modern acceptance of abortion is a shade below the holocaust that will claim dramatically more victims in the long run. It is even more disturbing because it is parents, the medical community, and government who are complicit.

[HoreTore]

On the contrary. I believe that the modern acceptance of abortion is a shade below the holocaust that will claim dramatically more victims in the long run. It is even more disturbing because it is parents, the medical community, and government who are complicit.

You my say so, but your lack of action suggest otherwise.

Care to explain why you can't be bothered to stop the holocaust(-1)? Going by current abortion numbers, the US commits a holocaust every 5th year.

Are you going to sit quietly and watch it happen? Yup.

Would you sit quietly when faced with an actual holocaust? Nope.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You my say so, but your lack of action suggest otherwise.

Care to explain why you can't be bothered to stop the holocaust(-1)? Going by current abortion numbers, the US commits a holocaust every 5th year.

Are you going to sit quietly and watch it happen? Yup.

Would you sit quietly when faced with an actual holocaust? Nope.

What did people do when the actual holocaust was happening? I'm confused by your chain of thought. What would you be doing if you thought that it was actually a terrifying thing?

Lots of crazy and terrible stuff happens all the time. What does anyone do?

[Fragony]

You're a lump of cells. So what?

That is not what he sees, he is all oh and ah about seeing his daughter in his girlfriends womb. In modern western societies there is always an alternative for abortion so I feel we must reconsider our stance on it. There isn't really an excuse to terminate a healthy pregnancy. There is also no excuse for getting pregnant when you don't want to get pregnant, except when raped. Use a condom if you don't want to be a father (or get mystery-meat) or take the pill if you don't want to be pregnant. Accidents can still happen but if you screw up deal with it.

[Brenus]

Abortion is a right. You are not oblige to do it. Freedom. Point.
"Accidents can still happen but if you screw up deal with it." Yes: Abort. Don't screw for/others futures of cells separation and multiplication, which at this stage can be extract and frozen, definite proof that they are closest to an amoeba than to a Sapiens.
And your friend might thing of a lump of cell as a human, that is just an illusion. At this stage it a shape of an orange that can be naturally expelled at any moment.
And his fantasy of a daughter, come-on, at 3 months, (16-20 weeks normally)!!!!

[HoreTore]

What did people do when the actual holocaust was happening? I'm confused by your chain of thought. What would you be doing if you thought that it was actually a terrifying thing?

Lots of crazy and terrible stuff happens all the time. What does anyone do?

So, you would remain calm when your government decides to kill a million a year?

Aren't you supposed to be armed to avoid that from happening? Where's the NRA?

[Fragony]

Abortion is a right. You are not oblige to do it. Freedom. Point.
"Accidents can still happen but if you screw up deal with it." Yes: Abort. Don't screw for/others futures of cells separation and multiplication, which at this stage can be extract and frozen, definite proof that they are closest to an amoeba than to a Sapiens.
And your friend might thing of a lump of cell as a human, that is just an illusion. At this stage it a shape of an orange that can be naturally expelled at any moment.
And his fantasy of a daughter, come-on, at 3 months, (16-20 weeks normally)!!!!

It's not his fantasy, it's his daughter

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So where is your actions taken to prevent the annual 'deaths' of 1.2 million humans...?

Would you have been so restrained if Obama ordered the deaths of 1.2 actual humans? I think not.

Well, some people do blow up abortion clinics.

[HoreTore]

Well, some people do blow up abortion clinics.

Indeed there have been a couple who have done what their propaganda tells them to do, but I would count these as mental cases.

The vast majority of those who claim that abortion is murder/holocaust thankfully do not follow their own logic. Their words may suggest otherwise, but their actions prove that they value actual life above the life of a fetus.

Which is a good thing, honestly.

[Fragony]

Indeed there have been a couple who have done what their propaganda tells them to do, but I would count these as mental cases.

The vast majority of those who claim that abortion is murder/holocaust thankfully do not follow their own logic. Their words may suggest otherwise, but their actions prove that they value actual life above the life of a fetus.

Which is a good thing, honestly.

I would never bomb a clinic but I do have a problem with it. Pregnancy can be prevented if you want to prevent it. If you burn your ass you got to sit on the blisters as we say here. The right on abortion is feminism gone wrong imho, if you can shove something in you can also push something out. You don't have to keep it, but it didn't ask to be here. But it is.

[ICantSpellDawg]

So, you would remain calm when your government decides to kill a million a year?

Aren't you supposed to be armed to avoid that from happening? Where's the NRA?

Germans largely didn't fight Hitler. Even the ones who had an idea about what was happening. Almost every western government everywhere is complicit.

To add to that, there are issues regarding the health and safety of the mother, which are legitimate. The act is a moral crime, but it is not exactly the same as rounding up undesirables and gassing them to death.

Plus, if you have an issue with killing people I fail to see what armed insurrection will do that doesn't result in death and destruction. Also, it has been said before, we are winning the argument - abortion rates are decreasing and people are beginning to recognize that the unborn occupy a peculiar ethical area - they are alive by every standard, and they are human by every standard. Keep the pressure on, keep talking to people and getting them to abstain, use effective birth control correctly, and not murder their most vulnerable innocent family members.

Explain to people that they have a right to choose when they become parents, but that if they are pregnant they are already parents.

[HoreTore]

.....In other words, abortion is not equal to murder. Which kinda was the point...

When all you want to do is to push some legislation against it, you are showing that it's miles and miles away from murder.

[ICantSpellDawg]

It is different from murder - yes. We incarcerate murderers. Abortion is homicide, occupying a strata below murder and less justified than self defense. Less justified than the death penalty. It is somewhere just around a crime of passion, but even more disturbing. I wouldn't advocate jail times for the mother - but is should cause the Dr's medical license to be revoked unless it is to save the mother from death or serious injury.

Our laws do not recognize the act as homicide - until they do we will protest. We are capable of judging lesels of justification on the type of homicides being committed. When we pretend as a society that one type of homicide isn't a homicide at all is where we have a problem. Many European countries have a better balance than the US

[HoreTore]

It is different from murder - yes.

Good to see that you're not one of these loonies then.