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Thread: Swedish election results are in

  1. #31
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    SD is actually a Social Conservative party, not nationalistic. They think Sweden had something good going around the 70's, and would like to try and bring some of it back.

    They want to limit immigration to EU's recommendation levels... Hardly a racist or nationalistic view. Specially after so long having had one of the worlds most open immigration policies... Time to make sure the immigrants we already have get assimilated in the Swedish society, before we accept more massive waves of immigration, without really having a plan for how to include them in society.

    Leftist media of course paint them up as somewhere more racist than the Nazi Party... This has lead to some people joining and voting for SD for the wrong reasons... SD is a new party, and have some culling to do, to get rid of some idiots, though. I guess all new partys do.
    SD is a mix of social conservatives (a lot of it from the brand known as fascism. Really, read the ideals of SD and compare to the old facist movements), immigration sceptics and outright racists. For the voters, add a large dose of people who feel malcontent with the other parties. That one gets a big boost by the outright bullying of SD from the rest of the political parties.

    It's worth pointing out that SD originated from more or less outright nazi parties (more that 20 years ago though), so that undertone of rascism has always been there. Been calling themselves social conservative since 2011.

    BTW, how are you familiar about the hospital story Kadagar? Did your draft in Boden or?
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-17-2014 at 19:09.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  2. #32
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    I can accept some fee-paying, like $20 for a GP appointment, but government-mandated and taxpayer-provided goes out of the window when you are actually seriously ill, then get loaded with a $150,000 bill for Chemotherapy.

    Seen too many fundraising for loved ones for people in America, and it is rather heartbreaking to hear about them, stories such as people staying outside the hospital in a tent, to reduce costs and how charity-aid clinics are overcrowded with Americans who haven't been treated for years with ailments because of the costs. Other times, people opting to die due to preventable illnesses because of the costs.

    Sure, I have heard the apologists too "lol, rich people from your country come to America, we have the best healthcare", they fail to miss the point that it has the best healthcare if you can actually afford it, you know, the 1% and not the 99% of the rest.
    I just think that we are at a crossroads. Unfortunately, rather than picking a road to follow, we are standing in the middle trying to find a way to head across the hedges between the two roads. I fear we will still be standing there when a semi arrives from behind unannounced.

    Road One: Fee-for-service/private insurance with little or no govt. mandates. Care for privileged = fantastic; care for most = good to very good; lowest 10-20% care = usually none, good or better when charity efforts allow.

    Road Two: government-managed free at point of service. Care for privileged = fantastic, though often at higher cost than before since they are using private care instead of the public care that is already paid for via tax; care for most = good, though increased wait times and experimental/cutting edge treatments largely unavailable ; lowest 10-20% care = the same as for 'care for most.'

    Currently, we are splitting the difference with a somewhat publicly funded safety net service for segments of our society; private insurance that must conform to government mandates and cannot be crafted to individual needs; fee-for-service charges over and above the portion covered by insurance; loads of forms, regulations, and duplicated records etc.

    There are advantages to either road....so of course the USA is ignoring both and going cross-country in a Ford Fusion.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  3. #33
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    SD is a mix of social conservatives (a lot of it from the brand known as fascism. Really, read the ideals of SD and compare to the old facist movements), immigration sceptics and outright racists. For the voters, add a large dose of people who feel malcontent with the other parties. That one gets a big boost by the outright bullying of SD from the rest of the political parties.

    It's worth pointing out that SD originated from more or less outright nazi parties (more that 20 years ago though), so that undertone of rascism has always been there. Been calling themselves social conservative since 2011.

    BTW, how are you familiar about the hospital story Kadagar? Did your draft in Boden or?
    Please read the ideals and show me what is fascist or racist? Seems like you followed leftist media rather than making your own educated opinion.

    To blame SD for being racist is like blaming leftists of being Stalinists... At the end of the day, it doesnt matter one effin thing what individuals in the party thinks, as long as the partys politics is OK... Am I wrong?

    I did my army service at K4 Arvidsjaur (An Arctic Ranger is never cold... He is shaking of happiness!!)... The Swedish part of my family however originate from Luleå and Boden. I still whistle in instead of saying yes
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 09-17-2014 at 20:07.

  4. #34
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Please read the ideals and show me what is fascist or racist? Seems like you followed leftist media rather than making your own educated opinion.

    To blame SD for being racist is like blaming leftists of being Stalinists... At the end of the day, it doesnt matter one effin thing what individuals in the party thinks, as long as the partys politics is OK... Am I wrong?

    I did my army service at K4 Arvidsjaur (An Arctic Ranger is never cold... He is shaking of happiness!!)... The Swedish part of my family however originate from Luleå and Boden. I still whistle in instead of saying yes
    I'll go with this list.
    Comments are taken mostly from I've red from that 48 pages SVERIGEDEMOKRATERNAS PRINCIPPROGRAM 2011. Some points are taken from "vår politik" on the different subjects. I concluded it from earlier party manifests (Jimmy Åkesson was still the party leader at the time), where it was more obvious. They're improving on writing those kind of documents.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    1.The idea of class and the importance of agrarianism. - Storsatsning på svensk matproduktion och matkultur. +1
    2.Private ownership (score), the circulation of money (independent sek, score), the regulation of the economy by the state (some, but private interests are strongly defended, score), the idea of ethnic bourgeois class, economic self-sufficiency (not that pushing here). +1
    3.The nation and the difference between nation and state. Do I need to explain this one? ++1
    4.The attitude towards democracy and political parties. Tolerant about this one. 0
    5.The importance of political heroes, i.e. the charismatic leader. Doesn't talk about it and doesn't seem to be influencial. 0
    6.The attitude towards Tradition. Very important, increased funding. +1
    7.The attitude towards the individual and society. Civil duty is considered very important and should be expanded. +1
    8.The attitude towards equality and hierarchy. A lot of "equal, but different" attitude. The strong should help the weak (as long as the weak got valid reasons for being wweak) +0,5
    9.The attitude towards women. antiabortion and antifeminists. Men and women are born different and that's the way it should be. If (by some miracle) they behave the same in some field, SD won't oppose it. +0,5.
    10.The attitude towards religion. Free religion. Christianity got special status, due to historical ties. Don't like muslims. +0,5
    11.The attitude towards rationalism. I couldn't dig deep enough on this to be certain on the meaning. IIRC the nazis weren't big on that, but more on feelings, and SD doesn't have that claim, so 0. They claim to be realists, rather than ideologues.
    12.The attitude towards intellectualism and elitism. They don't talk about it, gives vibes of being anti intellectuals, but not enough to give a score either way. 0 13.The attitude towards the Third World. Also one I can't dig out definitions. 0


    Yes, you will have overlap with other ideologies and I suspect fascism incorperated a lot from social conservatism, but when the media guys talks about SD being (democratic) facists aren't talking about racism. Anybody calling them nazis is shooting quite a bit from the goal though. Both being big on animal rights is amusing though (SD want's a special animal rights police, so it's quite serious). I think that's a side effect of some joint value. Probably related to revitalisation of the agricultural sector as well.

    Another listing.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

    1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

    Oh yes. +1

    2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

    Not in power, but not using that one in rethorics. 0

    3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

    Partly. People without Swedish values are a threat to national unity. +0,5

    4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

    Yes. Draft going back, and everyone makes some kind of civic duty. +1

    5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

    By Swedish standards, yes. Gay adoption is a big nono. Biological mother and father is the way to go, as much as possible. +1

    6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

    Not in power. 0. The conspiracyish parts of the party would do it, if in power.

    7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

    Sometimes. The most controversial campaign messages plays on fear of the stranger. Officially, assimilation is the prefered method. +0,5

    8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed
    to the government's policies or actions.

    Eh. I don't remember them using christian rethoric. Christianity got to have a special status though. +0,5

    9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

    Not in power. They're pro corperations though. 0

    10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

    Not in power. Not in rethoric. 0

    11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

    Not in power. Does have the tone of being the realistic party of the people against the ideological intellectuals. Art is judged, Swedish art that's constructive, is most worthy of preservation. +0,5

    12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

    Not in power. They're tough on crimes. Increase the punishments and don't toddle with the criminals. +0,5

    13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

    Not in power. Doesn't have rethoric that would lead into Cronyism and Corruption. 0

    14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

    Not in power. Aren't trying to fraud either. 0


    I'm from Luleå, so I'm familiar with the hospital. I didn't follow the politics around it, was too young.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  5. #35
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

    It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

    Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  6. #36
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

    It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

    Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).
    Oh, Ironside, be certain to check out Zbig's daughter. Lass may be a thorough-going leftie, but she is quite easy on the eyes.

    And smart, and accomplished, etc. for those who bother about such things.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  7. #37
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    From my own semi-Sweden http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

    And gutmensch is still very correctly puzzled why the Freedom Party of our flaming Mozart is bigger than the coalition combined (in the ratings)

    Here's why, just another day in multiculture

    No you borderline retarded inbred goatherders, our girls are not interested in you, marry your niece, just like your cousin. Or join IS.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-19-2014 at 07:23.

  8. #38
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    It's hillarious on facebook...

    People are reacting as if the Nazi Party got majority of the votes... Not as if a Social Conservative Party got 13% of the votes... Idiots.

    Anyway, things like "If you vote SD remove me as friend" is popping up everywhere. I view it as a pure intelligence test, culling FB of illiterates.

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Oh, Ironside, be certain to check out Zbig's daughter. Lass may be a thorough-going leftie, but she is quite easy on the eyes.

    And smart, and accomplished, etc. for those who bother about such things.
    Lefties put out.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  10. #40
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Lefties put out.
    So do "righties." Moreover, with all the guilt, they cut loose with a lot of verve.


    NOTHING was wilder than the Mormon girls who "strayed off the reservation" back in high school.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  11. #41
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    It's hillarious on facebook...

    People are reacting as if the Nazi Party got majority of the votes... Not as if a Social Conservative Party got 13% of the votes... Idiots.

    Anyway, things like "If you vote SD remove me as friend" is popping up everywhere. I view it as a pure intelligence test, culling FB of illiterates.
    They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-19-2014 at 13:52.

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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    So do "righties." Moreover, with all the guilt, they cut loose with a lot of verve.


    NOTHING was wilder than the Mormon girls who "strayed off the reservation" back in high school.
    Preists daughters are well-known sluts, but the key is the rebellion. "strayed off the reservation", as you put it.

    Being a leftie is basically a rebellion in itself, thus......
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.
    "Social conservatism" is one of those obscure terms without any real meaning to it. Terms like "socialist", "liberal" and "conservative" have actual meaning. Social conservatism has no definition or meaning. Islamists are social conservatives, for example. Does that mean SD is an islamist party?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  14. #44
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    History just keeps repeating itself.

    Once enough time of relative prosperous times have past. Individualism becomes stronger then collectivity. Society starts to become more and more divided, while economically upper and lower classes become larger on the expense of middle class. Such is fertile soil for populist movements in politics. Next steps are social unrest,civil war, non democratic governments and ultimately war between states and maybe even world war.

    But looking at the bright side it will be all good afterwards, when everything have been blown to shite and the survivors need to rebuild everything.. At least until the cycle starts again.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha View Post
    History just keeps repeating itself.

    Once enough time of relative prosperous times have past. Individualism becomes stronger then collectivity. Society starts to become more and more divided, while economically upper and lower classes become larger on the expense of middle class. Such is fertile soil for populist movements in politics. Next steps are social unrest,civil war, non democratic governments and ultimately war between states and maybe even world war.

    But looking at the bright side it will be all good afterwards, when everything have been blown to shite and the survivors need to rebuild everything.. At least until the cycle starts again.
    Do you often get told you have a negative world view

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  16. #46
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Do you often get told you have a negative world view
    Its called experience.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Frags, Social Conservatism makes sense in Sweden...

    "Conservative" in this case it has another meaning than in most other nations, as this is grounded in a socialistic welfare state, whereas international conservatism tends to be on the right side of the political spectrum.

    As I said, they basically thought Sweden used to have something good going for us, and they don't think todays society is an improvement. I can only agree.

    And, it's not just "It used to be better", hard cold facts show that it indeed used to be better. Sweden has real ghettos and even illegal gypsy camps all over these days. Not really a step in the right direction.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    So both the Swede conservatives and the US conservatives want to dial things back to the early 80s......interesting concept that.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

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  19. #49
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Sorry Ironside, but the crapalert is ringing in full volume on your last source.

    It is not a quality source, it's a simple circulated chain-email written by some random dude in the US to attack Bush. "Dr Lawrence Britt" is not a doctor, nor called "Lawrence Britt".

    Look up Roger Griffin for a definition of fascism, and Carl Joachim Freidrich and Zbigniew Brzezinski for totalitarianism(which SD also qualifies for).
    Bleh, downsides of simply going by the short lists from the net quickly and the lack of books and good lists (the other is from wiki, but going after the guy didn't produce an explaination on the list with a quick search). Explains the weak list though (much of it being generally totalitarian and not possible to apply to parties not in power). I'll add from memorary and the excerpt I could read for Griffin, the tendency by SD and fascists of wanting to go to a golden past by going radically forward. Basically, it's yarning for the golden past, while if you implemented the policies your society would be very different from the past you yarn for (revolutionary conservative instead of normal conservvative).

    Basically I took the second list to point out the militarism and nationalism that are present in the party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    They may call themselve social conservatives, but how should social conservatism be interpreted really. It's a very loose term that gives no clarity on anything. Are we talking about immigration policies or outright racism, if I got to draw a line I want to know where I should draw it.
    It means conservatives with a heart (caring about the poor etc, in a specific way, to differ themselves from normal conservatives).

    The big thing with SD on immigration is that their official policy is very different from their undertone, that goes very high into the party. We got the "järnrörsskandalen" or iron pipe scandal in 2012. Short version, media got a hold of a mobile video of people in the party top made in 2010. It contains calling a foreign woman "little whore" in her face and arming themselves with iron pipes to get back on an aggressive drunk (cops got called on him and he got arrested, so he was really that. That said, I think it's the guy holding his arms up in the video so...). It also contains the arrest, since they were around and dropped the iron pipes when the cops showed up. Can be worth noticing that the drunk says that he got aggressive because they punshed a woman. Not in this video, but on the full tape.

    In case you Americans wonder how high that are, picture Eric Holder and Jack Lew doing the same thing.
    Party support didn't drop. Because everyone voting for them already knew that they're racist.

    It's worth remembering that due to coalition goverments, you can vote for the crazies to push for issues, while running terrified away if the same party would get more than 50%.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    So both the Swede conservatives and the US conservatives want to dial things back to the early 80s......interesting concept that.
    Same mentality. People being people is the reason why left and right has a competition in every country. Even while being total lefties by US standard, the left and right in Sweden does compete, instead of the lefties running with say 70% of the votes on an average election. Priority of values stays the same, what changes is how those values manifest (SD is writing a lot on how obvious it is that women and men are different, while being totally ok with women and men competing in the same fields and if they would be equal in the same field it's ok. It's very obvious that the same ideals 1950 would be claiming that housewives it's totally natural and the way it should be and working women are strange things that upset the way things should be).
    Last edited by Ironside; 09-20-2014 at 13:52.
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  20. #50
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    The big thing with SD on immigration is that their official policy is very different from their undertone
    This is the main problem in Sweden as of today. People don't care about SDs actual political agenda, they just go by how mass media portray them.

    Ironside, it doesn't matter one flying **** what individual people in a party thinks. What you vote for is the politics they run. You like many other swedes seem to have lost this point completely.

    Please read up on what politics they want to run. Read up on how they voted these last four years in parliament. Read up on their budget proposal.

    I find it absolutely flaming retarded to go by public opinion or mass media, when it comes to political partys.

    To once every four years actually read up on the different political options is in my opinion a damn minimum, if you want to even pretend you are a democratic citizen.

    YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

    Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.

    Read up on SD and come back and explain what is wrong?

    Are they "militarists" because they want to strengthen the swedish defense forces. I hope you HAVE noticed how the Russian bear is growling as of now.

    The last time Russian jets violated swedish airspace was when? Oh right, TODAY!!

    I see it as a strength of SD to already in 2010 arguing for a shape up of the swedish defensive forces. Specially since EVERY other party dropped the ball completely.

    What you call militaristic is what I call damn common sense.

  21. #51
    Master of useless knowledge Senior Member Kitten Shooting Champion, Eskiv Champion Ironside's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    This is the main problem in Sweden as of today. People don't care about SDs actual political agenda, they just go by how mass media portray them.

    Ironside, it doesn't matter one flying **** what individual people in a party thinks. What you vote for is the politics they run. You like many other swedes seem to have lost this point completely.
    It depends. If the actual opinion by the politician differ too much from the official policy they are supposed to keep, then we can suspect that they won't do their job properly. I would not think that Ulla Andersson (v) would make a good job as an economic minister for the Alliance for example. That's one of the main reason's why Cecilia Stegö Chilò had to resign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

    Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.
    Uh, those people joined the party before Jimmie Åkesson got the party leader post. It's the wrong end to complain. They're "legacy people from our party's racist past", but with our later policy changes, they no longer have a place. And we'll keep the profile of keeping Sweden Swedish, but I'm sure that's it's only the evil media propaganda that makes our immigration skeptic party that want to keep Sweden Swedish attract racists.

    The strong community aspect of Facism and social conservatives are a major part of their appeal, but the way they say what constitutes a community makes them prone to be hostile to persieved threats to this community. That means that they're prone to be hostile towards foreigners and people acting "out of gender", for example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Read up on SD and come back and explain what is wrong?

    Are they "militarists" because they want to strengthen the swedish defense forces. I hope you HAVE noticed how the Russian bear is growling as of now.

    The last time Russian jets violated swedish airspace was when? Oh right, TODAY!!

    I see it as a strength of SD to already in 2010 arguing for a shape up of the swedish defensive forces. Specially since EVERY other party dropped the ball completely.

    What you call militaristic is what I call damn common sense.
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    Den som åtnjuter ett lands frihet skall också vara beredd att försvara denna frihet. Sverigedemokraterna menar att en allmän värnplikt, utöver att bidra till att stärka landets totala försvarskapacitet, fyller en viktig fostrande och social funktion. För kvinnor och icke vapenföra män skall allmän tjänsteplikt i krig gälla. Kvinnor skall dock på frivillig basis kunna delta även i den väpnade delen av försvaret.


    That's a stronger draft than during the cold war. It's not the only party toying with making the draft into a civic duty and a place to grow up into adulthood, but that's also what a facist party would approve of. Not a proof by itself, but that's why you have focus on the whole.
    We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?

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  22. #52
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Frags, Social Conservatism makes sense in Sweden...

    "Conservative" in this case it has another meaning than in most other nations, as this is grounded in a socialistic welfare state, whereas international conservatism tends to be on the right side of the political spectrum.

    As I said, they basically thought Sweden used to have something good going for us, and they don't think todays society is an improvement. I can only agree.

    And, it's not just "It used to be better", hard cold facts show that it indeed used to be better. Sweden has real ghettos and even illegal gypsy camps all over these days. Not really a step in the right direction.
    Oh I can only agree, don't get me wrong, Sweden's problems should never have existed in the first place, never ever let people who don't question if they are right or not play with buttons. Leftist idiots made quite a mess while clawing out the eyes of everything that doesn't make them all warm inside. Soooooo good, a nation ruled by Stephard wives. But from the looks of it Social Conservatism is more Ethnic Conservatism, you are free to hit me in the face if I got that wrong. The multicultural doctrine is incredibly rediculous and those that willclaw out your eyes if you don't share their cravings are total idiots. SD doesn't sound like anything I can like though, just kinda wary.

  23. #53
    Member Member Paltmull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Ironside View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
    YES, SD is a new party, and as every new party have their fair share of idiots. It takes some time to sort it, specially when the party almost triple their voting and parliament base per election the last 8-12 years.

    Secondly, swedish mass media portray them as somewhere more nazi than Hitler. OF COURSE the wrong people go there, regardless of the actual politics.
    Uh, those people joined the party before Jimmie Åkesson got the party leader post. It's the wrong end to complain. They're "legacy people from our party's racist past", but with our later policy changes, they no longer have a place. And we'll keep the profile of keeping Sweden Swedish, but I'm sure that's it's only the evil media propaganda that makes our immigration skeptic party that want to keep Sweden Swedish attract racists.
    This! If I was a socially conservative person who was sceptical of high immigration and wanted to make a change, then I would start a new party or organization. I certainly wouldn't join a racist party with ties to fascism and white-power ideology and then try to gently reform it to social conservatism; Because that wouldn't make any sense.

    I mean, they had to ban nazi uniforms at meetings in 1996 for God's sake.

    Oh, and as a treat, here's a lovely little article on LGBT and the Pride movement written by Björn Söder - who is party secretary and a member of parliament - published in SD-kuriren ("the Sweden Democrats courier") in 2007. It's in Swedish, but google translates it to English pretty well. Apparently the party's so called zero-tolerance doesn't stretch to homophobia. The article caused quite an outrage back then, but I suppose it's been forgotten. Read the article! It's not long.

    EDIT: I should also add that Anton Hysén, who is the son of the ex- football player that Söder criticizes for speaking at the "perverted homosexual event Stockholm Pride", later became one of the first football players to come out as gay in Sweden.

    /End of rant
    Last edited by Paltmull; 09-23-2014 at 12:32.

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  24. #54
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Starting a new party would make a lot more sense indeed. Same with the likes of Front-National. Can't just wash away the stench.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-23-2014 at 13:15.

  25. #55
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Paltmull View Post
    This! If I was a socially conservative person who was sceptical of high immigration and wanted to make a change, then I would start a new party or organization. I certainly wouldn't join a racist party with ties to fascism and white-power ideology and then try to gently reform it to social conservatism; Because that wouldn't make any sense.

    I mean, they had to ban nazi uniforms at meetings in 1996 for God's sake.

    Oh, and as a treat, here's a lovely little article on LGBT and the Pride movement written by Björn Söder - who is party secretary and a member of parliament - published in SD-kuriren ("the Sweden Democrats courier") in 2007. It's in Swedish, but google translates it to English pretty well. Apparently the party's so called zero-tolerance doesn't stretch to homophobia. The article caused quite an outrage back then, but I suppose it's been forgotten. Read the article! It's not long.

    EDIT: I should also add that Anton Hysén, who is the son of the ex- football player that Söder criticizes for speaking at the "perverted homosexual event Stockholm Pride", later became one of the first football players to come out as gay in Sweden.

    /End of rant

    Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

    I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

    So, SD as a party do not agree with that stance. Also, SD represents a few other stances that I fully agree with, that few or no other party run.


    * Make an animal police force, as animals today have little or no protection from abusive owners (as dog owner this is a question close to my heart.

    * We should keep and expand our nuclear plants, instead of buying energy from Germany, who base it on coal plants (everyone who played Sim City knows nuclear plant > coal plant).

    * After having among the worlds most open immigration policys, we should limit it to EUs recomendation levels... Like pretty much every other country in the vicinity. We should also focus on the immigrants we already have... Much more than now, at least. To wreck our economy helps no one in the long run, if we want to be able to keep being an open and accepting entity in the world.

    * We should strengthen our military, specially now with the Russia Bear slowly waking up from it's slumber...

    * We should spend more money on helping the vast amount of refugees where they are, instead of taking them to Sweden. This because we can help millions for the same price as taking 50.000 here. We can spend our resources more efficiently than now, and with 50 million refugees in the world, we have to work on broad solutions.

    * They want to have a discussion about what week abortion is still an option, as modern healthcare now can save a baby MUCH earlier than when the laws were written, and we need some distance between "abortion" and "murder".



    What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.

    And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


    Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

    To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.

    That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 09-23-2014 at 13:34.

  26. #56
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

    I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

    So, SD as a party do not agree with that stance. Also, SD represents a few other stances that I fully agree with, that few or no other party run.


    * Make an animal police force, as animals today have little or no protection from abusive owners (as dog owner this is a question close to my heart.

    * We should keep and expand our nuclear plants, instead of buying energy from Germany, who base it on coal plants (everyone who played Sim City knows nuclear plant > coal plant).

    * After having among the worlds most open immigration policys, we should limit it to EUs recomendation levels... Like pretty much every other country in the vicinity. We should also focus on the immigrants we already have... Much more than now, at least. To wreck our economy helps no one in the long run, if we want to be able to keep being an open and accepting entity in the world.

    * We should strengthen our military, specially now with the Russia Bear slowly waking up from it's slumber...

    * We should spend more money on helping the vast amount of refugees where they are, instead of taking them to Sweden. This because we can help millions for the same price as taking 50.000 here. We can spend our resources more efficiently than now, and with 50 million refugees in the world, we have to work on broad solutions.

    * They want to have a discussion about what week abortion is still an option, as modern healthcare now can save a baby MUCH earlier than when the laws were written, and we need some distance between "abortion" and "murder".



    What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.

    And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


    Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

    To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.

    That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).
    All very sensible points that I would back in an instant if I was Swedish, no question there. What other party, the one that could gain from being reasonable on all that without it's past holding them down? Sweden needs a new party that is without a past, that is without questionable members. Maybe some social hygiene within the ranks of the social conservatism ain't such a bad idea, I am not convinced that it's not a racist party, starting a new party that is only reasonable about things the (multicultural/enviromental/facist) left is unreasonable about makes total sense to me. Clean sheet.
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-23-2014 at 14:21.

  27. #57
    Member Member Paltmull's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
    Yeah well, you are intelligent enough to understand that individual persons have little or nothing to do with a political partys agenda, right?

    I think he is a flaming idiot, as I am about as pro-homo it's possible to be.

    [...]

    What party would I vote for, except SD? I don't agree with them in all questions, but a lot of the questions I find important. Any other party is miiiiiiiiiiiiiles away politically... So I am more or less forced to go with SD.
    How far are you prepared to take the idea that individual members have nothing to do with a party's agenda? If Hitler, Goebbels and Himmler were to join SD (yes, I just made a Hitler reference), would you still vote for them as long as you agreed with their official agenda? Björn Söder isn't some village idiot from some small town council, he is in a high position in the party and a member of parliament. We could bring up Kenth Ekeroth as well, who held the camera in the aforementioned "iron pipe" video. He too is a parliament member and holds a high position in the party (even though the iron pipe thing damaged that position). Ekeroth is heavily involved in the racist hate site Avpixlat as a financial funder. Parts of the SD internet fanbase are infamous for threatening journalists and bloggers, who openly criticize the party, with murder, rape (if they're women) and so on. Yet this man is allowed to continue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
    And no, I don't feel like starting a new party... Specially when there already in one I can accept in government position already.


    Your claims about nazism and racism... SD have done a LOT the last 15-20 years to turn the party from nationalistic to social conservative. It wasn't even a week ago they kicked 15 politicians for racist remarks, to name just one example.

    To say they forbade nazi uniforms doesn't mean the party is nazi, it means the party doesnt accept nazism. You really are reading everything in a dark way.
    I'm not saying that you should start a new party, I'm saying that Jimmie Åkesson and his merry band of reformers should have done so. It doesn't make sense to me that you would join a party that heavily disagreed with many of your opinions only to try and reform it. I think it's obvious that the earlier policies and strategies simply weren't viable for gaining public support and that reform work started for that reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV
    That isn't strange at all though, as mass media in Sweden more or less brainwash people (and the majority think media is objective, LOL).
    I'm going to ignore that.
    Last edited by Paltmull; 09-23-2014 at 14:44.

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  28. #58
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Huh

    Edit,huh was about me not knowing how I posted it here
    Last edited by Fragony; 09-23-2014 at 16:35.

  29. #59
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Paltmull, I am going to try to be very clear, as your post show very little intellectual sense.

    First of all, it again doesn't matter one flying **** what individuals in a party do or think, as long as the party have a good political agenda and follow this agenda when they vote. Are you democratically schooled enough to understand this point?

    I guess not, as you then go on and accuse the party for what ANONYMOUS PEOPLE ON THE INTERNET think and do. This is possibly the most senseless and absolutely most stupid line of reasoning I have met this side of 2014.

    Specially since this last election clearly showed that the troublemakers was leftists, not SD supporters.

    That you went with a Hitler reference to describe a party that want to lower immigration to EU's recommendation levels, as pretty much every country around us and in Europe... Is so laughably illiterate that I don't know where to begin. I just declare Godwin and move on.

    No really, that was a shameful argument.


    Why should I or anyone else start a new party, when we already have a fully functioning one? It's SWEDENS THIRD BIGGEST PARTY.

    I say it again, out of EIGHT government partys this is the THIRD largest, by a very good margin at that. To write so many Swedes off as nazi supporters and hateful people is intellectually dishonest, to say the least.


    You are "ignoring" when I wrote that the mainstream media more or less hide the reality around immigration for ideological reasons?

    Everyone doesnt' agree with you, this is an example

  30. #60
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Swedish election results are in

    Elin Ørjasæter used as a source.

    For anything.


    Hilarious.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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