UK constitutional debate

[HoreTore]

Rhy might actually be right about an united 'North'. There is this article from the Mirror.

As they spelled his name wrong, it should be dismissed immediately.

(It's Eirik or Eirikr)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I have repeatedly suggested a bureaucratic dismantling of the world into a more localised form of governance whilst being unified as a 'world' sharing an agenda/constitution which promotes Liberté, égalité, fraternité. In short, Libertarian Socialism.

Not simply specific to England. We live in a global age, with global issues, with a global economy. We would all be better off if we acted like that, as partners instead of rivals.

I really have no words for how terrible this is.

As they spelled his name wrong, it should be dismissed immediately.

(It's Eirik or Eirikr)

Spelled correctly in English. :P

[Greyblades]

I really have no words for how terrible this is.

I do: untennable. Even the uber idealistic star trek admitted it would take a world war and alien contact for that sort of thing to happen in anything close to a reasonable timeframe.

[HoreTore]

I do: untennable. Even the uber idealistic star trek admitted it would take a world war and alien contact for that sort of thing to happen in anything close to a reasonable timeframe.

It's basically a leftist EU.

Yeah, that's a utopia alright.

[Husar]

I do: untennable. Even the uber idealistic star trek admitted it would take a world war and alien contact for that sort of thing to happen in anything close to a reasonable timeframe.

Corporations will probably force something much worse yet very similar onto us, so there is no need to worry.
Governments are already unable to reign in international corporations because they just use all the tax loopholes and other things they can find while the single jobseeker sees a rise in international competition for the job he wants. In other words corporations reap all the benefits of globalization without suffering any of the downsides. The content mafia can even localize releases of entertainment so if the global citizen leaves Europe to work in the US, he can buy all his 200 Blu-Ray movies again there.

But hey, let's keep up the illusion that the government of Britain or Germany can reign in the big international companies on its own without getting bribed or loopholed aside.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's basically a leftist EU.

Yeah, that's a utopia alright.

The EU is a great example of it not working - they fudged, trying to push economic Union without political Union (hey, Salmond, easling, you listening?). Now even Germany is looking at stagnation due to low demand.

The idea of a Viking North" at least has some historical and cultural logic to it, it's something you can argue for - breaking England up into economic regions isn't something the average man can be expected to support - as it prevents no tangible benefit.

Made much harder by the Local Government Act 1974, of course.

[HoreTore]

The EU is a great example of it not working - they fudged, trying to push economic Union without political Union (hey, Salmond, easling, you listening?). Now even Germany is looking at stagnation due to low demand.

....And yet it remains, and will remain for a long, long time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

....And yet it remains, and will remain for a long, long time.

People believed the British Empire would last for ever - it didn't.

People also believed Russia was on the inexorable road to democracy and European integration, that all turned around in about five years.

Given the current situation in the Eurozone and the general rise in xenophobic Far-right parties from France to Greece I would not assume the EU has any staying power - not as-is.

[a completely inoffensive name]

The EU can only survive in its current form for so long. You cannot separate monetary integration from political integration in the long term. Eventually Germans, French, Polish etc... will become "Europeans" or the EU will fall over very dramatically like a row of dominoes as soon as one big player decides to pack their bags and leave.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The EU can only survive in its current form for so long. You cannot separate monetary integration from political integration in the long term. Eventually Germans, French, Polish etc... will become "Europeans" or the EU will fall over very dramatically like a row of dominoes as soon as one big player decides to pack their bags and leave.

UKIP gains first MP, also comes second to Labour in another By-Election.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

[InsaneApache]

UKIP gains first MP, also comes second to Labour in another By-Election.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29549414

Aye vote Tory get Milliband!

ROFLOL

They still don't get it do they? Change is coming and That Right Soon.

[Pannonian]

I have repeatedly suggested a bureaucratic dismantling of the world into a more localised form of governance whilst being unified as a 'world' sharing an agenda/constitution which promotes Liberté, égalité, fraternité. In short, Libertarian Socialism.

Not simply specific to England. We live in a global age, with global issues, with a global economy. We would all be better off if we acted like that, as partners instead of rivals.

Isn't Libertarian Socialism a contradiction in terms? One cannot be the other in the real world. Practically, a move towards one necessitates a move away from the other. The only way the two can be conciliated is if everyone believes in "the cause", and is willing to sacrifice everything including immediate application of the principles towards the end (since non-believers will muck up this assumption). And believers in "the cause", whatever it is, are worse than the cesspit of corruption that they claim "the establishment" to be.

[Pannonian]

Aye vote Tory get Milliband!

ROFLOL

They still don't get it do they? Change is coming and That Right Soon.

Rhetoric reminiscent of believers in "the cause".

[LittleGrizzly]

The one positive about UKIP is they can split the right wing vote whilst looking unlikely to get any serious power themselves, although it may seem a bad thing on the surface for too long in the UK has the right wing vote been solidly behind one party whilst the left wing vote has been split between at least a couple (just talking the major ones)

A stronger UKIP means less Tory governments. Now if only the major parties were actually left wing.....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

... Now if only the major parties were actually left wing.....

In practical terms, don't they pretty much have to be somewhat centrist to end up as a major party?

[Pannonian]

In practical terms, don't they pretty much have to be somewhat centrist to end up as a major party?

All parties have to adhere to some Thatcherite tenets to be deemed electable by the electorate. Socialism and the Labour party in its old form is pretty much dead. The old Tory party isn't much better. The old ideas of communal rights (Labour) and responsibilities (Tories) hardly exist any more, in England at least. Nowadays it's all about individual rights (neo-liberalism, aka Thatcherism).

[Seamus Fermanagh]

All parties have to adhere to some Thatcherite tenets to be deemed electable by the electorate. Socialism and the Labour party in its old form is pretty much dead. The old Tory party isn't much better. The old ideas of communal rights (Labour) and responsibilities (Tories) hardly exist any more, in England at least. Nowadays it's all about individual rights (neo-liberalism, aka Thatcherism).

Ultimately, all governments must balance all four for real, long-term success. I'm all for individual rights and responsibilities -- Reagan was my first Presidential choice when I became a voter (and it was an active choice, not an acknowledgement that Fritz was second tier as a candidate). Even so, communal rights and responsibilities must be part of an effective system as well.

I'd probably draw the intersect point a little differently than would you, but you cannot ignore the second vector entirely.

[Pannonian]

Ultimately, all governments must balance all four for real, long-term success. I'm all for individual rights and responsibilities -- Reagan was my first Presidential choice when I became a voter (and it was an active choice, not an acknowledgement that Fritz was second tier as a candidate). Even so, communal rights and responsibilities must be part of an effective system as well.

I'd probably draw the intersect point a little differently than would you, but you cannot ignore the second vector entirely.

Vector is the right word to describe the opposing angles of communalism (old school UK politics) and individualism (post-Thatcher UK politics). The latter is free market capitalism as applied to politics, with the language of the market being used to define politics (why settle for less when you can have it all, now, at no cost?). If your whole society is used to the language of the market, it takes a conscious effort to force yourself to think in a different mode, where the customer isn't the omnipotent centre of the world. If the electorate is conditioned to think in that way, how can the government act any differently and expect to be (re-)elected?

[a completely inoffensive name]

The one positive about UKIP is they can split the right wing vote whilst looking unlikely to get any serious power themselves, although it may seem a bad thing on the surface for too long in the UK has the right wing vote been solidly behind one party whilst the left wing vote has been split between at least a couple (just talking the major ones)

A stronger UKIP means less Tory governments. Now if only the major parties were actually left wing.....

I would say you are still screwed. From my understanding Labour is not even that far off from the Tories anymore and the Lib Dems formed a coalition with the party they identify the least with. Who is going to trust either? More likely the left will lose morale and turn up less for elections in the near future. Meanwhile the UKIP is giving right leaning voters a choice in the matter and is more likely to energize voters who identify along those lines. The vote may be split among them, but together they are still going to dominate the national conversation and thus the direction your country takes.

[Beskar]

Lib-Dem coalition was to prevent the age old argument of "Lib Dems have no experience in power", a coalition with Labour wouldn't have worked, especially as Gordon Brown wouldn't have stepped down and they didn't have enough to form the said government. (unless it also recruited SNP, Cymru, Greens and Sinn Fein)

So it was either, minority Conservative government, or try to use the opportunity to better themselves. Unfortunately, the move heavily backfired and even though the lib-dems tempered the conservatives, the electorate never forgave them.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Lib-Dem coalition was to prevent the age old argument of "Lib Dems have no experience in power", a coalition with Labour wouldn't have worked, especially as Gordon Brown wouldn't have stepped down and they didn't have enough to form the said government. (unless it also recruited SNP, Cymru, Greens and Sinn Fein)

So it was either, minority Conservative government, or try to use the opportunity to better themselves. Unfortunately, the move heavily backfired and even though the lib-dems tempered the conservatives, the electorate never forgave them.

It was obvious they should have forced a minority Conservative government. The Lib-Dems painted themselves as the outsiders, of course it was going to backfire when they began bargaining with the devil. The people who supported them probably didn't care "they have no experience in power" they just wanted a party with the numbers and the will to push big reforms into the public dialogue. I don't follow your politics that much, but "tempering" the conservatives only led to temperedconservative policies and a half assed push for electoral reform which failed spectacularly. What a joke the Lib-Dem leadership is. Maybe they really don't know anything about politics and power.

[Rhyfelwyr]

If anything, the idea that the Lib Dems had no experience in power might have worked to their advantage nowadays with all the anti-establishment rhetoric. But now nobody is in doubt that they are looking out for their interests as a party and in that regard are no different from Labour/Tories.

As for UKIP, hopefully if they do make a push to gain disaffected Labour voters, they will temper their extreme Thatcherite stance on economic issues. You can only get so far with a populist stance on immigration/Europe.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Lib-Dem coalition was to prevent the age old argument of "Lib Dems have no experience in power", a coalition with Labour wouldn't have worked, especially as Gordon Brown wouldn't have stepped down and they didn't have enough to form the said government. (unless it also recruited SNP, Cymru, Greens and Sinn Fein)

So it was either, minority Conservative government, or try to use the opportunity to better themselves. Unfortunately, the move heavily backfired and even though the lib-dems tempered the conservatives, the electorate never forgave them.

Terrible for them to be punished for good government and prioritising the national interest.

It's primarily because the "Left" like to describe the Tories as the "nasty party", a term actually coined as a warning by the current home secretary and true of none of the Cons currently in parliament - although some of the Cabinet in the 1980's are on record as being fairly nasty.

I don't honestly think it was to "prevent the age old argument..." I think Nick Clegg saw it as being in the national interest, and a genuine opportunity to do some good. On that basis I think he has been wildly successful - it's also forced him to admit that eliminating tuition fees whilst widening access was never a viable policy - contrary to what Tim Farron said recently.

But then, Tim Farron has never been in government, has he?

[Beskar]

I think Nick Clegg made the right move, unfortunately, it seems no one else felt the same. Also, all those "What Party are you?" all annoyingly put me closer to the Lib-dems than anyone else, at least if it said 'the greens', it would be a party which is gaining support opposed to slash'n burnt.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think Nick Clegg made the right move, unfortunately, it seems no one else felt the same. Also, all those "What Party are you?" all annoyingly put me closer to the Lib-dems than anyone else, at least if it said 'the greens', it would be a party which is gaining support opposed to slash'n burnt.

The Lib-Dems have now lost the protest vote as there are credible politicians, the party has shed it's pointless flab.

The Greens are just picking up that protest vote, as are UKIP - proof the Lib-Dems were never really "Left Wing".

But hey - if you want to trade in yellow for Green to spend another 10 years oohing and arring over a party that can makes outlandish promises on the principle they'll never have to implement them...

[Beskar]

The Lib-Dems have now lost the protest vote as there are credible politicians, the party has shed it's pointless flab.

The Greens are just picking up that protest vote, as are UKIP - proof the Lib-Dems were never really "Left Wing".

But hey - if you want to trade in yellow for Green to spend another 10 years oohing and arring over a party that can makes outlandish promises on the principle they'll never have to implement them...

I was jesting.

I would probably be voting Labour as I actually know the candidate running for the position and they are a good hardworking person who shares many of my values. So, voting the person, not the party. So even though I am not a fan of the current Labour person for my current constituency, I am a fan of the person who is the prospective candidate for my new constituency (which is currently conservative held).

I think most of the old Lib-dem votes have switched to Labour and lesser extent, the Greens (or SNP in Scotland), whilst some of the Labour switched to UKIP. UKIP seems to be mobilization support of the working classes and middle classes.