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Thread: Women's Rights

  1. #31
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    I have no problem with abortion. Late abortion would be a problem, especially in our westernised society, but I recognise it is a cultural one. Why some want to impose to others their choice is beyond me. Make women lives miserable in having un-wanted children is fine for them. This is the best case scenario. The worst would babies starve or torture to death, abandon in the street, begging and prostituting themselves. But of course, that is not the anti-choice/anti-abortion/so called pro-life clan.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

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  2. #32
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    The worst would babies starve or torture to death, abandon in the street, begging and prostituting themselves. But of course, that is not the anti-choice/anti-abortion/so called pro-life clan.
    If we're going to be silly, then I could ask where the choice is for the baby according to the "pro-choice" clan.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  3. #33
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Rhyfelwyr View Post
    If we're going to be silly, then I could ask where the choice is for the baby according to the "pro-choice" clan.
    That's why the proper label is "pro-abortion".
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  4. #34

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Husar, that is precisely what I'm getting at with

    But in the end, it's wholly inevitable that the picture is such, and not something that can change so long as the espouser-system remains the same in key ways.
    All that I'm saying, and all that you're interpreting, is made up of the same assumptions that I outline.

    It's literally our entire reality. And we cannot change that reality for ourselves - only for our successors.

    In other words, what I envision is the cutting-out the branch on which we are standing, the nullification of the the force that binds our constituents together.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  5. #35
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    All that I'm saying, and all that you're interpreting, is made up of the same assumptions that I outline.

    It's literally our entire reality. And we cannot change that reality for ourselves - only for our successors.

    In other words, what I envision is the cutting-out the branch on which we are standing, the nullification of the the force that binds our constituents together.
    How can we change it for our successors if we are stuck in it? It is inherently a self-preserving way of thinking.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  6. #36

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    By "successors", I meant non-human developments. I've mentioned that elsewhere, but I should have been explicit here.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
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  7. #37
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    By "successors", I meant non-human developments. I've mentioned that elsewhere, but I should have been explicit here.
    Does that mean you are pro-abortion or are you so desperate to talk about that that you do not care which thread you post it in anymore?


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  8. #38

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    It's less de-railing the train and more digging up the rails.
    Vitiate Man.

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  9. #39
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    I have no problem with abortion. Late abortion would be a problem, especially in our westernised society, but I recognise it is a cultural one. Why some want to impose to others their choice is beyond me. Make women lives miserable in having un-wanted children is fine for them. This is the best case scenario. The worst would babies starve or torture to death, abandon in the street, begging and prostituting themselves. But of course, that is not the anti-choice/anti-abortion/so called pro-life clan.
    How is disagreing with their choice imposing a view. I am fine with the right, just don't expect me to agree with it. Don't expect a shoulder to cry on, as I will be brutally honest if you ask for my opinion. If you are pregnant against your will you screwed up, unless you really couldn't help it. If they could have prevented it I will still respect their rights, but with zero sympathy.

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  10. #40
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    It's less de-railing the train and more digging up the rails.
    Well, the closest connection my mind can make is that we shouldn't factor in morality when we talk about abortion since morality is based on an idea that we should get rid of as well. Or in other words, if you dig up the rails, won't that hurt the train more than derailing it? Or is the well-being of the train not a concern of yours? Sometimes it appears as though you take absolutely no interest in the functioning of society, which, at least as it is, is seemingly based, or even rotates around, a lot of the things you declare illusions. Maybe illusions make the world go round?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  11. #41

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    You sound like Richard Joyce. Anyway, I'm not advocating for it in this thread; I just think it's an inevitable evolution.

    As for the issue at hand: yes, it's inconsistent with other things I might say.

    Perhaps it would satisfy you to hear that I seem to keep three different tiers of philosophy, and am prepared to operate from any one of them at a time.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
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  12. #42
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    How is disagreing with their choice imposing a view. I am fine with the right, just don't expect me to agree with it. Don't expect a shoulder to cry on, as I will be brutally honest if you ask for my opinion. If you are pregnant against your will you screwed up, unless you really couldn't help it. If they could have prevented it I will still respect their rights, but with zero sympathy.


    Sorry mate, had to point out the obvious there...

    EDIT: Fully agree with your post though

  13. #43
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post


    Sorry mate, had to point out the obvious there...

    EDIT: Fully agree with your post though
    Kinda sneaked it in

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  14. #44
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Nice but your pre-supposed are syllogisms. Foetuses are not human beings, nor are spermatozoids and an egg..
    Well obviously the first rule in any logic exercise is to define terms. I actually don't agree with the notion the fetuses are not people. We have certain legal protection for fetuses that are not given to other sentient beings. Quite frankly the reason we are forced to twist logic this way is because no one wants to admit they are taking human life.

    A woman is not forced to do anything. She knowingly took a calculated risk when she had intercourse (as did the men, which is why he to is still responsible for the child).

    I find abortion morally reprehensible. I think it should be legal through the first trimester but only because it's basically all I can stomach. You are taking innocent human life. In society we have deemed this ok because pros outweigh the cons. I see no reason to window dress it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ICantSpellDawg View Post
    Its not a straw man. To commit a homicide you must be able to justify it. There are some types of justifiable homicides. You can't just kill a human and say "it can't speak and was inside of my fleshbag, so I can do whatever I want"

    As always - I'll leave the arbitrary metaphysical distinctions to the pro-abortion side. I say human, you say "but not a being"
    Well you could if we deemed it ok. We already do every time we pull the plug on someone
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  15. #45
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Is there even one woman posting in this thread? No, of course there isn't.

    I have an opinion on abortion. That opinion means jack-all, so I keep it to myself. The end.
    I don't even understand this line of thinking. I mean does this work after the 4th bud light in the piss end of Oregon? Is that why you use it?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  16. #46
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Is there even one woman posting in this thread? No, of course there isn't.

    I have an opinion on abortion. That opinion means jack-all, so I keep it to myself. The end.
    I agree with your post, but it did bring a thought to mind...

    It takes two to tango. We all the time hear about the rights of woman, what about the men?

    Some ten years ago I made a Polish girl pregnant. I had no idea about it until she told me about the abortion several years later (In Poland, abortions isn't legal... so she did it on the "black market" so to say...)

    We are still FB friends, and I see her life. Heck, I could see myself fit in there with a child. It's a great girl.

    As much as I have an entirely different life from then, and don't have any real regrets... I must admit that I from time to time dwell back on the fact that I was a father.

    And then I was not a father.

    All of this without me having an inkling on what the **** happened.

    Now, I am by no means arguing that males should dictate a womans body. I just mean it would be nice to at least be heard once in a while.

    TLDR: Women are not alone in the creation of life thingy, so I don't see why it would be bad for men to talk about the issue.

  17. #47
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube View Post
    Maybe I use it just to piss off angry dudes like you. You probably think women like a guy who wants to stifle them, huh? Gonna go off about some men's rights shit now?
    I'm not angry, I'm not even drunk, just trying to get tips.

    I dislike MRAs, most of them are virgins or dudes jaded from divorce because they thought they were smart enough not to need legal counsel. A mans financial liabilities are analogues to a womens physical ones. Now granted, the option of abortion does tip the scales a bit in one direction, but a childs needs outweigh those of an adults.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  18. #48
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    She knowingly took a calculated risk when she had intercourse” You should go in a Crown Court (Criminal) and see how many time we have rape cases because a man (men) took as excuse the woman was drunk and had a “consensual” sex with them, even if the woman was asleep or unconscious when they did it. Strangely enough, the Court decides that you have to have an active “yes” to be qualified as consensual. Of course, some will argue that the woman shouldn’t be drunk, but, strangely enough again, if a man get drunk and get raped by other man after a binge party, their attitude toward free will and drunkenness changes a lot…

    I actually don't agree with the notion the fetuses are not people.” You point of view, but it doesn’t make it true. You can as well disagree with Earth to be round and turning around the Sun.

    “A woman is not forced to do anything.” Yeah, sure… Same category than the one above.

    I find abortion morally reprehensible.” Good for you. I don’t.

    You are taking innocent human life.” No, we are talking really of cells duplicating.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  19. #49
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Bit naive about how women can be Brenus, if you ask me. It's a small miracle that I never contracted any mystery-meat. I am a pretty goodlooking and charming guy and women keep flirting with me, for Kadagar it's probably even worse/better because he is a ski-instructor, i expect a goodlooking guy, the highest price when a group of women go skiiing. Women aren't victims at all most of the time, just horney.

  20. #50

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    One thing about "are fetuses people?":

    "Person" is a legal status that may be assigned or withdrawn. "Human" is just the object-label for entities from the cell-on-up (e.g. "human zygotes") that possess a genome characteristic of the one species.

    Therefore the question is not an empirically-grounded one, and so can not be argued on the surface level. The path to personhood for fetuses, or the path to its withholding, derive immediately from how one perceives the value or moral worth of fetuses.

    Whether or not a fetus should be considered a "person", and thus maintain (at least some of) the rights imputed to "paradigmatic" persons, is entirely a matter of moral preference.

    What this means is that the physio-cognitive attributes of a pre-natal human at any point in its development are irrelevant to the issue at hand.

    Strike, you should know all this - you've been to law school.

    That's why I thanked your first post; I thought you were acknowledging the invalidity of attempts to approach the question of fetal personhood from anything other than an explicitly-moralistic perspective.
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  21. #51
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One thing about "are fetuses people?":

    "Person" is a legal status that may be assigned or withdrawn. "Human" is just the object-label for entities from the cell-on-up (e.g. "human zygotes") that possess a genome characteristic of the one species.
    But lawyers aren't the only ones allowed to define terms and quite a few people define person differently in the context of this discussion.
    Apparently people is also not the plural of person in law: http://www.dailywritingtips.com/people-versus-persons/
    So the question "are fetuses people?" seems perfectly valid. You are right however, in that it cannot hurt, and is often even required, to define terms. And I am not going to claim to have the ultimate answer at which point a fetus turns into a person, which I would consider somewhere around the beginning of its ability to act as a coherent, sentient system instead of a collection of interconnected cells, whenever that actually is.


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  22. #52

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    But lawyers aren't the only ones allowed to define terms and quite a few people define person differently in the context of this discussion.
    Well, I'm talking about a distinction between "person(s)" - a legal term - and "human", which is not. "Person/people" is just the colloquial equivalent of "human".

    So nothing in my point is changed.
    Vitiate Man.

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  23. #53
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    That's why I thanked your first post; I thought you were acknowledging the invalidity of attempts to approach the question of fetal personhood from anything other than an explicitly-moralistic perspective.
    If you don't believe in some sort of objective moral standard, then why debate the issue at all? If you don't believe in right or wrong then there is no should or shouldn't, there just is what there is.

    Apologies if what I said makes no sense, or if I completely misunderstood what you were saying. Both of which I think are quite likely.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  24. #54

    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Ah, but you assume I could just "choose" to "decide" to do other than what I'm doing now (besides assuming that my verbal behavior is strongly indicative or predictive of my future behavior).

    If you really want to hear an intrinsically-suspect confabulation: I'm an inveterate pedant and I must be stopped.
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  25. #55
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Well, I'm talking about a distinction between "person(s)" - a legal term - and "human", which is not. "Person/people" is just the colloquial equivalent of "human".

    So nothing in my point is changed.
    Nothing is changed, but I am questioning the relevance of your point to this discussion since I am not sure everybody who discusses abortion uses the legal definition of person, more likely most people use varying definitions of the word and might not even agree with the legal one that is valid in their country.

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    If you really want to hear an intrinsically-suspect confabulation: I'm an inveterate pedant and I must be stopped.


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  26. #56
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    You should go in a Crown Court (Criminal) and see how many time we have rape cases because a man (men) took as excuse the woman was drunk and had a “consensual” sex with them, even if the woman was asleep or unconscious when they did it. Strangely enough, the Court decides that you have to have an active “yes” to be qualified as consensual. Of course, some will argue that the woman shouldn’t be drunk, but, strangely enough again, if a man get drunk and get raped by other man after a binge party, their attitude toward free will and drunkenness changes a lot…
    This has nothing to do with consent, I'm assuming the women consented. I can certainly empathize with a woman who has an abortion after she was raped, human or not.

    If you are saying the women has to actively consent to keeping the child, I don't see why. We hold parents responsible for children whether or not they tire of them. It's logically inconsistent to say that the rules change simply because the child is in utero. Also what happened to fetuses aren't people?

    I actually don't agree with the notion the fetuses are not people.” You point of view, but it doesn’t make it true. You can as well disagree with Earth to be round and turning around the Sun.
    If we are talking science then a fetuses absolutely counts as a live being. Your analogy fails

    “A woman is not forced to do anything.” Yeah, sure… Same category than the one above.
    Consequnces have action. I don't look down on women who have abortions, I don't go pickett clinics, and I don't write angry letters to politicians
    I find abortion morally reprehensible.” Good for you. I don’t.
    We have to agree to disagree then

    You are taking innocent human life.” No, we are talking really of cells duplicating.
    Whatever helps you sleep at night

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One thing about "are fetuses people?":

    "Person" is a legal status that may be assigned or withdrawn. "Human" is just the object-label for entities from the cell-on-up (e.g. "human zygotes") that possess a genome characteristic of the one species.

    Therefore the question is not an empirically-grounded one, and so can not be argued on the surface level. The path to personhood for fetuses, or the path to its withholding, derive immediately from how one perceives the value or moral worth of fetuses.

    Whether or not a fetus should be considered a "person", and thus maintain (at least some of) the rights imputed to "paradigmatic" persons, is entirely a matter of moral preference.

    What this means is that the physio-cognitive attributes of a pre-natal human at any point in its development are irrelevant to the issue at hand.

    Strike, you should know all this - you've been to law school.

    That's why I thanked your first post; I thought you were acknowledging the invalidity of attempts to approach the question of fetal personhood from anything other than an explicitly-moralistic perspective.
    I agree with you that it is completely a matter of moral line. Personhood is defined by the cultural and by extension the state. I mean one only needs to look at the history of black Americans to see how true this is.

    My own morality, however, is still dictated by a lapsed Protestantism that rears its head from time to time. Hence the personal aversion
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

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  27. #57
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    We hold parents responsible for children whether or not they tire of them.
    No, we don't, really. Our laws are clearly of the opinion that bringing up a child is the responsibility of the society, not simply the individual parents.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #58
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    In reply to a few comments in here...
    Days since the Apocalypse began
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  29. #59
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Oh, that doesn't collect evidence of rape - it collects a DNA sample. interesting that the poster equates this with guilt all by itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiaexz View Post
    In reply to a few comments in here...
    The poster should also say:

    No matter the length of time since the event
    No matter the lack of other evidence
    No matter if she did in fact consent at the time - even a notarised, witnessed form probably isn't sufficient.

    In fact, no matter what else - except incarceration in a police / jail cell.

    You will be treated as a rapist and will be tried in the media if there is insufficient evidence under criminal law

    Suddenly hookers don't seem such a bad option.

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
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  30. #60
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Women's Rights

    Why do the pro-choice crowd focus so much on rape in every abortion thread, even when it only accounts for probably around 1% of abortions?

    I think it is because they are trying to divert public indignation away from the main issue itself. It is just a cheap PR stunt, and I think it is because those on the liberal-left know on some level that abortion is wrong, and they are trying to convince themselves that they are progressive and that they have the moral high ground. The truth is in 99% of cases abortion has nothing to do with rape and it comes from the same school of thought as the ancient practice of leaving a newborn baby in the woods to die because you don't want to raise it.

    Never mind the shockingly bad arguments that go something like: "the baby will not be loved so it is cruel to not abort it", that for some reason are seen an acceptable within the pro-choice movement.
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

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