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Thread: Columbus Day Protests

  1. #31
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Irony of history. Didn't discover Americas, wasn't even that great of an explorer or a cartographer, but the continents were named after him.

    Columbus was a man of his time. If we tried to forget everyone of questionable morality by modern standards, our history books would become nearly empty.
    There are several persons of the middle ages and earlier who can be considered early human rights advocates.

    But we don't remember those, we remember the people like Colombus.


    It's like remembering Hitler and forgetting Schindler.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  2. #32
    Forum Lurker Member Sir Moody's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Columbus was a man of his time. If we tried to forget everyone of questionable morality by modern standards, our history books would become nearly empty.
    That's a cop out and you know it.

    Columbus was so abhorrent that the Crown not only striped him of his Governorship but actually later jailed him and confiscated his wealth - while he did somehow sweet talk his way out of jail and into getting his wealth back he never was in a position of power again.

    This isn't a "product of his times" - his peers found his crimes just as abhorrent as we do now - there are several Scholars of his time who actually published as much... he was a monster and can only be considered that.

  3. #33
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    That Oatmeal cartoon is cherry picked hack job
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

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  4. #34
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Irony of history. Didn't discover Americas, wasn't even that great of an explorer or a cartographer, but the continents were named after him.

    Columbus was a man of his time. If we tried to forget everyone of questionable morality by modern standards, our history books would become nearly empty.
    The "Great Prophet Muhammed" was a man of his time when he had sex with 6 year olds...

    Hitler was a man of his time when he believed we should cut into the genetical tree of life...

    My dad was a man of his time, when he hated gays no matter what...

    History and where that line of study should go is never, ever, ever, ever about what we should forget, but about what we shouldn't forgive or forget.
    Last edited by Kadagar_AV; 10-18-2014 at 01:22.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    It's like remembering Hitler and forgetting Schindler.
    Sadly I'm fairly sure that's already true for a lot of the world's population.
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  6. #36
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Sadly I'm fairly sure that's already true for a lot of the world's population.
    Only one got Oscar's...

    This bring me to my second (or rather more enhanced) point: We shouldn't get our information from crap outlets if we want democracy to ever work.

  7. #37
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    There are several persons of the middle ages and earlier who can be considered early human rights advocates.

    But we don't remember those, we remember the people like Colombus.


    It's like remembering Hitler and forgetting Schindler.
    Because what Columbus did had a profound effect on the world and forever changed it, for good or bad. It's kinda like Times' Person of the Year - one's chosen based on influence and effect, not based on one's good nature.

    Should we really be making movies about people who committed genocide, like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    The "Great Prophet Muhammed" was a man of his time when he had sex with 6 year olds...

    Hitler was a man of his time when he believed we should cut into the genetical tree of life...

    My dad was a man of his time, when he hated gays no matter what...

    History and where that line of study should go is never, ever, ever, ever about what we should forget, but about what we shouldn't forgive or forget.
    Mohammed was indeed a man of his times. It wasn't uncommon even later for man to marry and have sex with underage girls.

    Hitler wasn't a man of his times, kinda why most of the rest of the world fought him.

    I highly doubt your dad was a man of his times as people from that generation didn't all hate gays.

    We're talking about 15-16th century. Am I wrong or is that about the time people burned people at the stake for witchcraft and promotion of science alike and committed genocides because of minor and major religious and/or ethnic differences, among other crimes?
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 10-18-2014 at 11:52.

  8. #38

    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    The best argument for keeping Columbus Day is that "America Day" is a bit too much and there are already two holidays for the military.

    But really, it's kind of a worthless holiday no matter what side you're on. For the Latin countries it might have some special significance, but for the US, it's symbolically meaningless. As it is, it serves neither integrative nor disintegrative purpose by its specification, and in practice it only produces intergroup disintegration.

    Is the beginning of the Age of Colonization really worthy of being one of the US's federal holidays, administrative or otherwise? Why not "Contact Day" then? Or, why not "Jamestown Day" or "Louisiana Purchase Day"?

    It could be replaced by pretty much anything. Just go ask the dozens or hundreds of lobbyists crying for some new federal holiday.

    Should we really be making movies about people who committed genocide, like Alexander the Great or Genghis Khan?
    Federal holiday - not the same as a commercial product.
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  9. #39
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Federal holiday - not the same as a commercial product.
    I'd agree that the background is different, but as far as raising awareness go, it was much more effective.

    It's not really the movie the itself, it's the mythology it was based upon, a particular mythology most of us westerners have a difficult time letting go of - a culturally, morally, scientifically superior smaller band of westerners, led by a genius confronting and winning against countless eastern hordes.

    We have a habit of remembering the nice things and forgetting the ugly. Not in any way unique to Columbus.

  10. #40
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    300 had a much more nuanced take on the east vs west theme than Alexander.

    In Kingdom of Heaven the templars are the evil ones, while the muslims are the noble savages.

    In Walker Texas Ranger, as well as some Steven Seagal movies, the Indians are the noble savages.

    It's not like the entire movie industry is pro-west (although technically the Indians were the westerners and the Europeans the easterners), some of them are also pinko-commie fifth columnists.

    There were also more than just Schindler: Bonhoeffer, Canaris, Stauffenberg and several I have forgotten about...
    Learned about many of those from movies as well.
    Last edited by Husar; 10-18-2014 at 12:59.


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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Because what Columbus did had a profound effect on the world and forever changed it, for good or bad. It's kinda like Times' Person of the Year - one's chosen based on influence and effect, not based on one's good nature.
    No.

    A national holiday implies one's good nature.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  12. #42
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    No.

    A national holiday implies one's good nature.
    Well, Kenya has an Obama Day, so your point is invalid, since he is a pinko muslim socialist who wants to sell the greatest country in the world to its enemies.


    Anyway, Columbus day isn't really about Columbus. He's just a personification.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    "A national holiday implies one's good nature." Err, like storming a Fortress used as jail (kind of Guantanamo Bay one)?
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Well, Kenya has an Obama Day, so your point is invalid, since he is a pinko muslim socialist who wants to sell the greatest country in the world to its enemies.

    Anyway, Columbus day isn't really about Columbus. He's just a personification.
    As is said earlier in the thread, the reason why the day exists is because a group of Catholics wanted a Catholic hero/rolemodel for catholic children. It is about Colombus himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "A national holiday implies one's good nature." Err, like storming a Fortress used as jail (kind of Guantanamo Bay one)?
    Yes, storming the Bastille was a good thing.

    you don't have a "building the Bastille"-day in France.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  15. #45
    Insomniac and tired of it Senior Member Slyspy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    Yes, storming the Bastille was a good thing.

    you don't have a "building the Bastille"-day in France.
    Yes, those lunatics were being oppressed.

    Someone here said that history is about what were should shouldn't forgive or forget. The latter is fair enough, but the former is BS. The study of history isn't about whether we forgive people or not.
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  16. #46
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Columbus Day Protests

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore View Post
    As is said earlier in the thread, the reason why the day exists is because a group of Catholics wanted a Catholic hero/rolemodel for catholic children. It is about Colombus himself....
    Columbus day had been celebrated in the USA for many years. The highest popularity of the celebration coincided with the USA's most "jingoist" era, from our centennial up until World War II. During this era -- when Kipling wrote of taking up the "white man's burden" without seeing anything hypocritical in it -- it is safe to assume that "revisionism" was not being applied to the rather superficial knowledge most yanks had about Columbus. Catholics used him as a standard bearer -- including my Knights of Columbus -- because he was both Catholic and moderately popular as historical figures went.

    Working together, the Knights and a powerful New York Tamany Hall leader (of Italian origin) convinced the Democratic President from New York to approve the Federal Holiday. In the NE, Columbus day was the Italian-American counterpart to St. Pat's for many people -- a celebrate your heritage day.

    Most Americans today celebrate the Holiday by watching ALL of Sunday Night Football without worrying about getting up the next day. A huge slice of them couldn't tell you why this Monday was a holiday and if you told them it was President's Day or Veteran's Day instead of Columbus Day they would probably agree with you and certainly wouldn't care one way or another -- except that they have the day off.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 10-19-2014 at 20:42.
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