Originally Posted by
Vincent Butler
His human body died. Because sin came by man, redemption had to come by man. Thor dies and that is it. Odin dies and that is it. Jesus died and rose again. He said that he himself had power to lay down his life, and power to take it up again. The God part of him did not die.
This is a dishonest answer. You drew Thor and Odin into this discussion not I.
You claim that only Jesus’ body died. Really? And you have scriptural backup for this?
We all know what he told the robber who hung next to him; today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
I don’t know about your faith, but in the protestant and catholic churches here, they site the apostolic creed (article of faith) at every mass and there is one particular line which is of interest (which is found in both versions):
passus sub Pontio Pilato, crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus,
descendit ad inferos
Which reads:
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried,
He descended into hell (Norwegian: kingdom of the dead);
He died, as you believe all men (humans) die. The body and soul separated, the body is buried and the soul goes to hell/paradise awaiting resurrection (In Jesus' case, 3 days).
As I said before, look at other Scriptures. If somebody claims revelation, but that part conflicts with what the Bible says, we can ignore them. Case in point, the people who claim to know the hour of the return of Christ. The Bible says that no man knows the hour. That is an easy example.
I can't explain how the Holy Ghost reveals things, I just know he does. But if I do see something, I had better make sure it lines up with other Scripture or the nature of God as revealed in his word, or however I am trying to apply that verse. If it does not, then I know it was not the Holy Spirit.
Fair enough. This very interesting topic in Christendom should answer why there are so many different strains of “truth” out there, one claiming to be right whilst another condemns it. I am very interested in the topic of “Why do you think you are right?” and if the answer is: “The Holy Ghost told me” or “The scriptures teaches it” or the combination of the two: “Scriptures teaches it and the Spirit confirms it”; you should arrive at one truth and one way. Yet… how many of the 35 000 denominations in the Christian faith believes just that, that their way is the correct one and it is based on the scriptures and the Holy Ghost?
If we are going to remove every controversy found in the manuscripts, Esther would have to go, Proverbs would have to go, Kings and Chronicles would have to go, all that stuff. The translators of the KJV knew of those controversies, that is why each part went through fourteen different examinations, to determine if they should leave it in or out.
At least you acknowledge that there are controversies, and that is a small victory. I have discussed with quite close-minded Christians and sometimes I forget to treat you individually. Not many will admit there are any controversies.
I guess we will just disagree on the interpretation of how Elohim is used, I believe it to refer the three parts of Elohim. "Let us make man in our image". Christ is in the image of God, he did tell Philip "He that hath seen me hath seen the Father."
Look at the possible definitions of Elohiym in the Strong's Concordance. Then look at the context. It is not necessarily referring to Jehovah, obviously not there. When Christ quotes that verse, look at the surrounding verses, he made them mad because he made himself God, not a god.
The context does not give that. All you can draw from this is that Christ claims in this instance to be of a godly race as are the people he is arguing with. Doesn’t mean this is his final or complete claim, but in this particular instance – that is all you can draw from it.
A couple of comments on your last paragraph. I don't know where you heard of Deutoronomical reform, it sounds more like a conspiracy theory to me. We don't have the originals, we can't say for sure what they say (from a purely secular standpoint). But I believe in the inerrant preservation of God's word, so I believe that God kept his word pure throughout history. If I did not believe that, what would be the point of believing the Bible? If I was not sure that what it says was really the Word of God as given in the originals, it would be pointless to believe any Bible.
I wish people would investigate more before declaring their faith. One particular scholar, which you should read, is Margaret Barker, a Methodist scholar that has received awards for her work on understanding the Temple. One criticism she makes is against the Deuteronomy reform, they reformed much of the temple and she gives a specific list of which changes. What did Israel believe before and after the reform? One of the points is about monotheism and how they changed texts. Removing references to e.g. The Hosts of heaven etc.
Oh, I fully believe that people would tamper with the Word of God, that is why we have all those other translations,
Again, I admire the Christian who admits this.
Originally Posted by
Rhyfelwyr
What we know from the pre-Nicaea centuries suggests that the scripture that was canonized around the time of Nicaea was not hugely different from what it was in its more primitive incarnations. The Muratorian canon for example is dated to the 2nd Century and lists the four Gospels, as well as several Pauline Epistles. Indeed, the four Gospels seem to have been the core New Testament documents well before Nicaea, and were championed by Iraneus, Tatian and Origen, to name a few. The Pauline Espitles (although the particular epistles are not specified) are shown to have scriptural status at the time of their very writing (2 Peter 3:16).
It is this historic scripture of the four Gospels and the Pauline Epistles that was affirmed by the Trinitarians - they did not just concont the scripture to support their beliefs.
Ah but you miss my point. and are you really going to use the Muratiorian fragment as an authority on what the canon is and is not? Because you will run into problems with today’s canon. Back to my point, the fact that the official canonization of the bible happened after Nicæa suggests that they were in a position to make a canon that conforms to the new doctrine of Trinitarianism and even change parts of it that would distract from it. Did it happen? Well parts of John would suggest that they did. Was this the extent of it? Probably not.
Subordinate in what sense though? By virtue of nature, or just by circumstance? If you say that Christ is entirely equal by nature with the Father, but submits to the Father in taking upon a human body and suffering his wrath upon the cross, then you are not in disagreement with the Trinitarians on this point.
Ok… I might not be according to you. However, I have argued this with other Trinitarians, which still thinks that two separate ontological Gods is a heresy.
Supernatural formation - for example the Jehovah's Witnesses belief that God created Jesus as an inferior divine being. In the passage here in question (Isaiah 43:10-11), God is saying that no other God was formed by any means. And even if minor gods were created, we know that Christ isn't one of them, since Christ claimed to be the uncreated I AM, the alpha and the omega. Therefore, Christ must be that single, uncreated God.
Well… Christ could well be acting in his role as a divine agent of the almighty, giving him licence to use such phrases even though he does not possess those attributes.
That is what I say. Have I appealed to the authority of Athanasius, or to the scriptures that were accepted for hundreds of years before him?
Sorry m8, I do not believe you would reach this understanding if not for Athanasius or someone like him.
To save us from debating the translation of this disputed verse of Mark, I will just point to the Old Testmant verse that Jesus was referencing, which makes the exact same point:
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord." (Deuteronomy 6:4)
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)
I read Deuteronomy with great skepticism. I suspect it to be a fabrication.
Cyrus is considered a 'type' or foreshadow of Christ as Messiah, in the same way that David foreshadowed Christ's kingship, and Melchizedek his priesthood. He is a messiah, but not
the Messiah. I guess you are referring to verses such as Isaiah 45:1? Cyrus is indeed called God's "anointed", a word which may also be translated as "messiah" - it means generally one given a special purpose by God. It is the same way that many are called apostle in the New Testament, yet we speak in particular of the Twelve Apostles as having a unique apostleship - there is a distinction to be made between the basic meaning of the word on the one hand, and its use as a special title on the other.
This is not just some sort of Christian revisionism. In other parts of Isaiah, although Cyrus is called messiah, a far greater messiah is prophecied of, the one who would be called "Immanuel", or "God with us" (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23). To this day, the Jews wait for the Messiah, not just a messiah.
You completely sidestepped my point.
OK, but you are not arguing for Unitarianism. As a Subordinationist, how would you respond to those verses I gave you, which I'll list again below:
"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58)
"I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." (Revelation 1:8)
"Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
"And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you." (Exodus 3:14)
As a Subordinationist, I presume that you do not agree with the Unitarians. Surely you would believe that when Christ called himself the I AM, the alpha and the omega, he was in fact speaking of himself, and not merely acting as a mouthpiece for the Father. How does a Subordinationist reconcile those verses with their idea that Christ is one of the elohim, an inferior created god?
Well you see… All of your quoted scriptures needs to be reconciled with the following scriptures:
And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: And there came a voice from heaven,saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Mark 1:10-11)
Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
(Luke 3:21-23)
And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
(Matt 3:15-17)
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
(Matt 12:31-32)
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour. Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
(John 12:28-29)
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
(John 17:1-5)
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, artin me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
(John 17:11-23)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(John 20:17)
(Stephen the martyr:)
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
(Acts 7:55-56)
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
(Acts 2:32-33, 10:38)
And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
(Matt 26:39)
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
(Philippians 2:5-6)
But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
(Matt 10:33)
For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
(John 12:49-50)
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
(John 8:42)
Where we differ is when I say that God died for our sins upon the cross, whereas you would say that a god died for us. I believe that the Father is God, Jesus is God, and the Spirit is God. Father, Son and Spirit all share a single essence that dwells fully and indivisibly in each of them. If the Son died for us on the cross, then the fullness of God died for us upon the cross. God's entire essence/nature suffered for us upon the cross in the person of the Son. The beauty of the Gospel lies in that perfect, sefless act of sacrifice by God himself.
Subordinationists on the other hand would say that the supreme God never endured any suffering, but rather a separate created god. From a legalistic perspective it allows for our salvation, but it takes away so much of the power of the Gospel message.
The problem with your view is “a single essence” this do not allow for ontological different in nature.
The scriptures I quoted clearly speaks of ontological difference, in that they were separate in space (location) at those specific incidents. Witnesses saw and heard three different sources. The Jesus on earth, the ascending dove and the voice from heaven. Stephen the martyr saw two personages in his vision: God the Almighty and his son who stood at the almighty’s right hand. Jesus clearly deferred to his father in judgment and action. It was not according to Jesus’ will, but to God the Father’s will. Clearly a distinction of nature.
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