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  1. #91
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    A unified Yugoslavia still loses by 30 to the 92 dream team
    Two things:

    1. In your dreams
    2. It's sad you have to build up a team from two decades ago.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Realistically? I'd say 10-20.

  2. #92
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Reactor Champion, Starcastle Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    That's great. Why doesn't Kiev sacrifice a little pride, recognize election results and give eastern Ukraine a greater autonomy?
    Why should Ukraine swallow their pride when the other side has so clearly breached an agreement of only several weeks old? Why should anyone recognise so called 'elections' which have not been reviewed by impartial observers and whose only purpose is to provide a fig leaf for the gang of thugs that have been in power before, during and after the event?

    The Minsk agreements stipulated that Ukraine would be sovereign over those territories and that it would provide autonomy and locally elected leaders. It does not mean that Ukraine has to legalize this completely unilateral sham after the fact. The autonomy was already provided for by Ukrainian law, but withdrawn after the separatists reneged on the deal.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Why should Ukraine swallow their pride when the other side has so clearly breached an agreement of only several weeks old? Why should anyone recognise so called 'elections' which have not been reviewed by impartial observers and whose only purpose is to provide a fig leaf for the gang of thugs that have been in power before, during and after the event?

    The Minsk agreements stipulated that Ukraine would be sovereign over those territories and that it would provide autonomy and locally elected leaders. It does not mean that Ukraine has to legalize this completely unilateral sham after the fact. The autonomy was already provided for by Ukrainian law, but withdrawn after the separatists reneged on the deal.
    Hardly. Minsk agreement was broken a long time before with neither side respecting ceasefire.

    Ukrainian law obviously doesn't provide enough autonomy for them. So far, it was the rebels who were calling for a dialogue, and Kiev has consistently been refusing. A great chance was missed to have a dialogue, establish an acceptable level of autonomy and have new elections after that. Not only Kiev refused, they physically isolated them from the rest of the country, thus alienating even the most moderate people there.

    The alternative to that is Kiev crushing them militarily, which is a laughable idea. Ukrainian foreign currency reserves are nearly depleted, their gold reserves are almost gone, hryvna losing value constantly and the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups. They can't make a sustained effort, and even if they gain an upper hand for a short time, Russia just needs to up its support for that much.

    At this point, I'd support Kiev if they could pull a clean and efficient military operation to regain control with minimal civilian casualties, but they can't even do that AND they've been consistently closing all possible avenues for dialogue. What's Kiev strategy? To physically isolate that part of the country? To starve and freeze them to compliance? Despicable. And I'm truly amazed that some people's fear or hatred of Russia stop them from seeing that. They only need to start catapulting bodies with plague to go fully medieval at this point.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 11-24-2014 at 22:03.

  4. #94
    Sovereign Oppressor Member TIE Fighter Shooter Champion, Reactor Champion, Starcastle Champion, Turkey Shoot Champion, Juggler Champion Kralizec's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Hardly. Minsk agreement was broken a long time before with neither side respecting ceasefire.

    Ukrainian law obviously doesn't provide enough autonomy for them. So far, it was the rebels who were calling for a dialogue, and Kiev has consistently been refusing. A great chance was missed to have a dialogue, establish an acceptable level of autonomy and have new elections after that. Not only Kiev refused, they physically isolated them from the rest of the country, thus alienating even the most moderate people there.

    The alternative to that is Kiev crushing them militarily, which is a laughable idea. Ukrainian foreign currency reserves are nearly depleted, their gold reserves are almost gone, hryvna losing value constantly and the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups. They can't make a sustained effort, and even if they gain an upper hand for a short time, Russia just needs to up its support for that much.

    At this point, I'd support Kiev if they could pull a clean and efficient military operation to regain control with minimal civilian casualties, but they can't even do that AND they've been consistently closing all possible avenues for dialogue. What's Kiev strategy? To physically isolate that part of the country? To starve and freeze them to compliance? Despicable. And I'm truly amazed that some people's fear or hatred of Russia stop them from seeing that. They only need to start catapulting bodies with plague to go fully medieval at this point.
    Both sides have broken the ceasefire repeatedly, so that's neither here nor there.

    Neither side has disavowed the Minsk agreement, though. Ukraine went ahead and passed legislation giving Donbass autonomy. I don't know if the Minsk agreement specified the level of autonomy; as far as I know there's no English version of the text. Nevertheless, if the separatists thought it wasn't enough to be acceptable they should have demanded more, and failing that, declared that they no longer see the Minsk plan as being valid.

    Russia could almost certainly have kept the separatists from holding "elections" if it wanted to. But far from that, they immediately recognised the results and called on the rest of the world to do the same. The whole charade was overwatched by a bunch of stooges flewn in by Russia so that they could say "foreign observers" were present. Everything about it smells of bad faith.

    Shortage of supplies and heating gas - honestly, did they expect the country they violently seceded from was going to allow free traffic of goods and energy? How is this Ukraine's fault? If we're talking about humanitarian trouble, I'd be a lot more concerned about the political repression and lawlessness that pervades these "people's republics".

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  5. #95
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Why doesn't Kiev sacrifice a little pride, recognize election results and give eastern Ukraine a greater autonomy?
    Once again: Lugandon denied any other option but complete independence. But even if it hadn't there is no way to make any kind of agreement with peple who don't control all of the territory they hold since they don't control all the hitmen there. For example, Minsk agreements were not recognized by Don cossacks in Lugansk region, Bezler's group in Horlivka, Chechens here and there and Motorola's group around Donetsk airport. There is no unified Eastern Ukraine, nor Novorossia, nor DPR, nor LPR. The area is divided between 12-17 gangs some of which obey no one (not even Putin).

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I was pointing out that you can't place the blame for conflict on a side that's resisting what they perceive to be an outside threat coming into their area.
    Once again: a side that's resisting now (and started resisting back in spring) is Russia. That is the side I place the blame on for the stalemate we are having now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Not only Kiev refused, they physically isolated them from the rest of the country, thus alienating even the most moderate people there.
    How do you know the bold? The source, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups.
    How do you know the bold? The source, please.
    You seem to be rooted in what you claimed half a year ago and base your judgements on your own assumptions and wishful thinkings.
    Reluctance of the Ukrainian army spotted in spring was explained by the fact that its propulsion was resisted by unarmed people (mainly women). The reluctance vanished since the nature of the resistance changed. And the minister of defense is the ex-head of the National Guard who you seem to include into "ultranationalist paramilitary groups". So, following your logics, that cutthroat can have no scruples whatever giving ordres to kill civilian Russian-speakers in heaps. Wait, I heard something like that before... Ah, yes. Russian TV showed a speaker who claimed that at one Ukrainian checkpoint near Kramatorsk Ukrainians don't let anyone pass through without taking money from them, one grandfather didn't have it so they took by force ten eggs he had with him. Another time they raped a 50+ woman who had an epileptic fit during the rape, but it didn't stop the perpetrators so they kept on doing their business while the whole bus (out of which they had pulled her) were watching them. Another "witness" said that Ukrainian soldiers fight in the East because they had been promised a piece of land and two slaves to till it.
    Any more tales of horror you can add?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    At this point, I'd support Kiev if they could pull a clean and efficient military operation to regain control with minimal civilian casualties
    Like what Croatia did to Kraina?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    What's Kiev strategy? To physically isolate that part of the country? To starve and freeze them to compliance? Despicable. And I'm truly amazed that some people's fear or hatred of Russia stop them from seeing that. They only need to start catapulting bodies with plague to go fully medieval at this point.
    You should sell the last idea of yours to RT. They will be mighty glad and you will make some easy money.
    And I'm truly amazed that some people's hatred of Ukraine stops them from seeing that what Ukraine is doing is not a punishment nor a way of forcing the recalcitrant part of it into something. For once, it is not the people of Donbas who are putting up the armed resistance now and the current armed authorities of Donbas will suffer no harm, it is the ordinary people who will, and Kiev is aware of that.
    You seem to know so much of the current economic and financial situation in Ukraine to realize that Ukraine can't keep financing the territories that don't pay taxes into its budget. Even when they did they were heavily donated from the said budget, so the expenditures were not covered by the taxes. Now it is a forced measure applied to the areas where Ukraine can't control anything. Do you think the USSR should have paid pensions and salaries on the territories occupied by Germany in 1941-44?
    Btw, if a person comes to the "Ukrainian part of Ukraine" he can receive his payments (if those are financed from the central budget).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    as far as I know there's no English version of the text.
    Russian:
    http://www.osce.org/ru/home/123807?download=true
    English:
    http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025499736
    Pay attention that Russia (via Zurabov) signed it (though it is not mentioned in Russian media), so it has some responsibilities too, no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralizec View Post
    Russia could almost certainly have kept the separatists from holding "elections" if it wanted to. But far from that, they immediately recognised the results and called on the rest of the world to do the same.
    Correction: Russia said that it respected the choice of the Donbas people. A day later Lavrov (iirc) said that "to recognize" and "to respect" are two different notions.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 11-25-2014 at 10:05.

  6. #96
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Once again: Lugandon denied any other option but complete independence. But even if it hadn't there is no way to make any kind of agreement with peple who don't control all of the territory they hold since they don't control all the hitmen there. For example, Minsk agreements were not recognized by Don cossacks in Lugansk region, Bezler's group in Horlivka, Chechens here and there and Motorola's group around Donetsk airport. There is no unified Eastern Ukraine, nor Novorossia, nor DPR, nor LPR. The area is divided between 12-17 gangs some of which obey no one (not even Putin).
    Precisely the reason why Kiev should have recognized (even provisionally) the election results.


    Once again: a side that's resisting now (and started resisting back in spring) is Russia. That is the side I place the blame on for the stalemate we are having now.
    Well, I'm willing to agree that we disagree on that.

    How do you know the bold? The source, please.
    Common sense. If I'm a moderate who wants things to go back to how they were, I'm royally screwed because my government cut me off completely.

    How do you know the bold? The source, please.
    Lack of major combat operations, a lot of small scale fighting and whenever it happens, it usually involves National Guard or paramilitary groups.

    You seem to be rooted in what you claimed half a year ago and base your judgements on your own assumptions and wishful thinkings.
    Reluctance of the Ukrainian army spotted in spring was explained by the fact that its propulsion was resisted by unarmed people (mainly women). The reluctance vanished since the nature of the resistance changed. And the minister of defense is the ex-head of the National Guard who you seem to include into "ultranationalist paramilitary groups". So, following your logics, that cutthroat can have no scruples whatever giving ordres to kill civilian Russian-speakers in heaps. Wait, I heard something like that before... Ah, yes. Russian TV showed a speaker who claimed that at one Ukrainian checkpoint near Kramatorsk Ukrainians don't let anyone pass through without taking money from them, one grandfather didn't have it so they took by force ten eggs he had with him. Another time they raped a 50+ woman who had an epileptic fit during the rape, but it didn't stop the perpetrators so they kept on doing their business while the whole bus (out of which they had pulled her) were watching them. Another "witness" said that Ukrainian soldiers fight in the East because they had been promised a piece of land and two slaves to till it.
    Any more tales of horror you can add?
    Que? What are you even talking about.

    Like what Croatia did to Kraina?
    Croatia performed ethnic cleansing in Krajina, so obviously not that. If Croatia defeated military force and protected civilian population and integrated them back as citizens with full rights, I'd have very little problem with entire thing.

  7. #97
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Common sense. If I'm a moderate who wants things to go back to how they were, I'm royally screwed because my government cut me off completely.
    From what I know I would say that allegiance of people didn't change because of that fact. Those who were pro-Russain don't consider current Ukrainian government as "their government" (and with anti-Ukrainian propaganda they are not likely to), so they stayed pro-Russian getting one more reason to hate Ukraine, others realize that the payments will be renewed when/if the territories are won back. After all this is the strategy to win back the lost lands - to show that elsewhere the life is better, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Lack of major combat operations, a lot of small scale fighting and whenever it happens, it usually involves National Guard or paramilitary groups.
    How do you know the bald? The source please.
    From what I know the lack of offensive on the part of Ukrainian armed forced (both regular and others) is partly explained by the inclination of the government to stick to Minsk agreements, partly by the inadequate weapons and troops quantity to do that (according to the war rules, if you want to start an offensive you are to have at least four times more troops on a theater; as for the kind of artillery and armored vehicles that Ukraine possesses, they are largely old decrepit things that demand constant repair; both men and arms domination Ukraine had had in summer was lost after August 24, when Russia intervened directly and since that time has been pumping its "help" across the border) and partly (or perhaps primarily) by the fear that the moment we start an offensive Russia will say that Ukraine has forfeited the signed agreements and will invade openly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Que? What are you even talking about.
    You still believe the stories of Ukrainian atrocities against civilians (performed by "ultranationalists") in the areas controlled by Ukraine.

  8. #98
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    the Ukrainian army is still reluctant to do anything major, forcing Kiev to rely on ultranationalist paramilitary groups.
    I don't see how this is correct. AFAIK, the regular troops (artillery) was instrumental in the taking of Sloviansk. It was also regular troops that decisively defeated the separatists at Donetsk Airport at the start of the insurgency, and who has been holding it ever since (with some support). It was also regular troops that were close to cutting off the separatists' supply lines from Russia when they came under heavy and sustained artillery fire and withdrew.
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    From what I know I would say that allegiance of people didn't change because of that fact. Those who were pro-Russain don't consider current Ukrainian government as "their government" (and with anti-Ukrainian propaganda they are not likely to), so they stayed pro-Russian getting one more reason to hate Ukraine, others realize that the payments will be renewed when/if the territories are won back. After all this is the strategy to win back the lost lands - to show that elsewhere the life is better, no?
    I believe the state has an obligation to its citizens. Furthermore, it encourages the local authorities to set up their own system and encourages all people living there to try to work within that system if they don't want their families to starve/freeze, and in the end, the entire thing moves closer to the point of no return.

    Winning hearts and minds is where this conflict could be decided.
    How do you know the bald? The source please.
    From what I know the lack of offensive on the part of Ukrainian armed forced (both regular and others) is partly explained by the inclination of the government to stick to Minsk agreements, partly by the inadequate weapons and troops quantity to do that (according to the war rules, if you want to start an offensive you are to have at least four times more troops on a theater; as for the kind of artillery and armored vehicles that Ukraine possesses, they are largely old decrepit things that demand constant repair; both men and arms domination Ukraine had had in summer was lost after August 24, when Russia intervened directly and since that time has been pumping its "help" across the border) and partly (or perhaps primarily) by the fear that the moment we start an offensive Russia will say that Ukraine has forfeited the signed agreements and will invade openly.
    From the reports and news I've read over the last several months. Involvement of the actual army has been pretty minimal and small scale.
    That has been pretty consistent from the start and I haven't noticed major changes after Minsk agreement.

    You still believe the stories of Ukrainian atrocities against civilians (performed by "ultranationalists") in the areas controlled by Ukraine.
    I do believe they have been rather indiscriminate with their targets, yes, and that, in my opinion has a lot to do with the previous paragraph - too little involvement of the actual army and too much involvement of the National Guard (which seems to be a poor attempt to hastily legalize paramilitary groups like the Azov brigade). I also think they are significantly worse than the Rebels in that regard, even though the Rebels have hardly been angels so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    I don't see how this is correct. AFAIK, the regular troops (artillery) was instrumental in the taking of Sloviansk. It was also regular troops that decisively defeated the separatists at Donetsk Airport at the start of the insurgency, and who has been holding it ever since (with some support). It was also regular troops that were close to cutting off the separatists' supply lines from Russia when they came under heavy and sustained artillery fire and withdrew.
    I didn't say no involvement, I said little involvement. Western media tend not to draw a distinction between the actual Ukrainian army and recently formed National Guard.

  10. #100
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I didn't say no involvement, I said little involvement. Western media tend not to draw a distinction between the actual Ukrainian army and recently formed National Guard.
    What I just listed is some most of the serious involvement on Ukrainian side thus far in the conflict. I don't see how much more the Ukrainian army could have done.

    In most of the battles, the separatists are located inside cities and towns. There are only two options then: raze the city to the ground or go in slowly.
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  11. #101
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I believe the state has an obligation to its citizens.
    Unless those citizens live in the (temporary) occupied territories. Even so the Ukrainian government will still keep those territories supplied with gas and electricity expecting no payment for it. This is as much as it can do for the time being.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Winning hearts and minds is where this conflict could be decided.
    Not possible while Russian media keep poisoning those hearts and minds. And minds must tell their owners that Ukraine can only finance territories it controls.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    I do believe they have been rather indiscriminate with their targets, yes, and that, in my opinion has a lot to do with the previous paragraph - too little involvement of the actual army and too much involvement of the National Guard (which seems to be a poor attempt to hastily legalize paramilitary groups like the Azov brigade). I also think they are significantly worse than the Rebels in that regard, even though the Rebels have hardly been angels so far.
    Your mind has been poisoned by Russian propaganda as well, like the stories I cited. National Guard was a transformation of Internal Troops done in March, long before any fighting broke in Donbas. And turning Azov into a brigade of National Guard happenned after several months of fighting. Do you call it hasty? Even before that ALL volunteer battallions functioned with the legal framework of either Ministry of Defense or National Guard.

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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking View Post
    What I just listed is some most of the serious involvement on Ukrainian side thus far in the conflict. I don't see how much more the Ukrainian army could have done.

    In most of the battles, the separatists are located inside cities and towns. There are only two options then: raze the city to the ground or go in slowly.
    As I've said, western media tend not to make distinction between the two. In taking of Slavyansk, both army and the National Guard were present. What was the exact ratio, I don't know.

    Ukraine can field a rather large with reserves deployed. The fact that they had to resurrect National Guard and that National Guard was involved in pretty much all skirmishes/battles tells me that Kiev doesn't trust the army so much (NG is controlled by the Ministry of Interior Affairs)

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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    What date is it? What is Putin's political allegiance?
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    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    What date is it? What is Putin's political allegiance?
    It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.

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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.
    Well, you at least got the date correct.
    In all these papers we see a love of honest work, an aversion to shams, a caution in the enunciation of conclusions, a distrust of rash generalizations and speculations based on uncertain premises. He was never anxious to add one more guess on doubtful matters in the hope of hitting the truth, or what might pass as such for a time, but was always ready to take infinite pains in the most careful testing of every theory. With these qualities was united a modesty which forbade the pushing of his own claims and desired no reputation except the unsought tribute of competent judges.
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Well, you at least got the date correct.
    Are you trying to say he's not a fascimile?

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    The fact that they had to resurrect National Guard and that National Guard was involved in pretty much all skirmishes/battles tells me that Kiev doesn't trust the army so much (NG is controlled by the Ministry of Interior Affairs)
    1. I don't know what you mean by "resurrection", I repeat: National Guard was called Internal Troops until it was renamed. In fact it is the same Berkut that was on Maidan in winter. Sometimes there were tensions reported between ex-Berkuts and newly recruited volunteers in training camps but once they were on the battle field the tensions were forgotten.
    2. Since National Guard is in fact spetznaz and it is more fit for military actions than much neglected, underfinanced and often badly trained army, it is natural that it bears the brunt of fighting. Yet there are some elite army detachments (like paratroopers or marines) which are up to the task, so they are in the thick of fighting as well (for example, in Donetsk airport, Debaltseve and others). There is no trust distinction as you would like to find between different kinds of troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It is Novmembeber 25th annd Validamiridonenko Putiniatin is still a fascimile.
    His first name in your interpretation sounds like a Ukrainian last name. Perhaps he is a Ukrainian nazi as well?
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 11-25-2014 at 16:52.

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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    His first name in your interpretation sounds like a Ukrainian last name. Perhaps he is a Ukrainian nazi as well?
    He is if the exact copy is not which it isn't, but could be if it is, which means it definitely is.
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  19. #109
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    1. I don't know what you mean by "resurrection", I repeat: National Guard was called Internal Troops until it was renamed. In fact it is the same Berkut that was on Maidan in winter. Sometimes there were tensions reported between ex-Berkuts and newly recruited volunteers in training camps but once they were on the battle field the tensions were forgotten.
    2. Since National Guard is in fact spetznaz and it is more fit for military actions than much neglected, underfinanced and often badly trained army, it is natural that it bears the brunt of fighting. Yet there are some elite army detachments (like paratroopers or marines) which are up to the task, so they are in the thick of fighting as well (for example, in Donetsk airport, Debaltseve and others). There is no trust distinction as you would like to find between different kinds of troops.
    From what I've read, National Guard was formed at the beginning of the nineties and laid to rest by Kuchma in 2000. It was reactivated in March 2014. It is supposed to be a light infantry type of unit, under control of Interior Affairs.

    Another big issue are Territorial Defense units, bulk ofwhich was also formed from volunteers post Maidan. They were under control of Interior Affairs as well, until recently when they were transferred to the Army, iirc. Just how big is their composition in the units fighting in the east I really don't know.

    It seems that both were hastily assembled as Maidan government has little faith in the army after they surrendered/refused to fight several times.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 11-25-2014 at 17:40.

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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    From what I've read, National Guard was formed at the beginning of the nineties and laid to rest by Kuchma in 2000. It was reactivated in March 2014. It is supposed to be a light infantry type of unit, under control of Interior Affairs.
    I don't know what was the nature of the late National Guard, but National Guard 2.0 is just the renamed Internal Troops+volunteers. As to it being light is not ture (at least now). Recently they have been given heavy machinery including tanks and APCs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    Another big issue are Territorial Defense units, bulk ofwhich was also formed from volunteers post Maidan. They were under control of Interior Affairs as well, until recently when they were transferred to the Army, iirc.
    The latter is not correct since some of them were transferred to (or originally were within) the Army system, others stayed under the Ministry of Interior and Right Sector battallion is outside either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It seems that both were hastily assembled as Maidan government has little faith in the army after they surrendered/refused to fight several times.
    As I have remarked, the latter is wrong, and I gave the reasons why.

  21. #111
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    From what I've read, National Guard was formed at the beginning of the nineties and laid to rest by Kuchma in 2000. It was reactivated in March 2014. It is supposed to be a light infantry type of unit, under control of Interior Affairs.

    Another big issue are Territorial Defense units, bulk ofwhich was also formed from volunteers post Maidan. They were under control of Interior Affairs as well, until recently when they were transferred to the Army, iirc. Just how big is their composition in the units fighting in the east I really don't know.

    It seems that both were hastily assembled as Maidan government has little faith in the army after they surrendered/refused to fight several times.

    Crucial point - the "Maidan Government" is no longer a thing - elections have been held (which the separatists prevented people from voting in) and now there is a new government.

    As to revoking benefits for people in "New Russia" you can't have it both ways - right now Kiev is not getting taxes from there and the area isn't operating under Ukrainian Law. If they pay into people's bank accounts in those area etc. then the local "government" can tax those people and use the money to fund the war against Kiev.

    So, clearly, paying pensions is not a good idea. It makes neither political nor strategic sense.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."

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  22. #112
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    It is November 26th, and Vlad Putin still puts Russia first.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    "It makes neither political nor strategic sense." It does. It clearly indicates you don't consider the other side as your citizens. It is HUGE political mistake, probably of the same size than the will to join NATO, which make Putin's point very more valid, as it is what he was saying from the start. Well done Ukrainian government, you just validate your country's partition.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    "It makes neither political nor strategic sense." It does. It clearly indicates you don't consider the other side as your citizens. It is HUGE political mistake, probably of the same size than the will to join NATO, which make Putin's point very more valid, as it is what he was saying from the start. Well done Ukrainian government, you just validate your country's partition.
    How can payments be ensured in Lugandon? Do you expect vehilces to transport money across the frontlines? In that case I'm sure it will never reach those it was meant for. So I repeat once again: the citizens from the territories that are not at the moment controlled by Ukraine can cross into the areas controlled by Ukraine and have all the payments. Or do you suggest Ukraine must finance Crimea as well?
    Speaking of Putin the Fascist, does it redound to such a reputation if you finance nazis?
    http://euobserver.com/foreign/126638
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 11-28-2014 at 18:11.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    28 November 2014
    Vlad Putin still pursuing a Russian agenda for power and refusing to back down to repeated "you're a meanie" invective.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Vlad Putin
    In fact, Vlad is short for Vladislav, and short for Vladimir is Volodya or Vova.

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    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Run N Gun Champion, Hook Line & Sinker Champion, Anime BlackJack Champion, Street Racer Champion, Pipe Mania Champion, Spider Jump Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Soap Bubble Champion, Word Up Champion, Burger Time Champion, Shape Game Champion, Quick Shot Champion, Shuriken Challenge Champion, James Bomb Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Crazy Cars Champion, Space Runner Champion, Submarine Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, Cub Shoot 2 Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Chicken Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Squirrel Soccer Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Treasure Diver Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Stuart's Xtreme Skateboarding Champion, Jet Pac Stan Champion, Warthog Launch Champion, Candy Tetris Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Frogger Champion, Slack Man Champion, Fishing the Sea Champion, Mission To Mars Champion, Ollie Skates Champion, Japanese Baseball Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Brighton Bounty Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Super Mario Mushroom Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Rotation Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Fish Kill Champion, Ninja Turtles 2 Champion, Ice Racer Champion, Its Mine Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, KF 9000 Champion, Stick Avalanche Champion, White Van Man Champion, What-A-Shot Champion, Mars Patrol Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, Magic Ball Champion, BlackJack Champion, Sonny Sunshine Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    In fact, Vlad is short for Vladislav, and short for Vladimir is Volodya or Vova.
    Gospodin, I speak 'murrican. Need to cut me some slack here.
    "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word, equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." -- A. de Tocqueville

    "Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite." -- J.K. Galbraith

    "When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'.” -- J. H. Marx

  28. #118
    Member Member Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    In fact, Vlad is short for Vladislav, and short for Vladimir is Volodya or Vova.
    I always wondered about this... How eastern European languages have such weird nicknames...

    I was together with a girl, Olcia... I could also call her Alex... WTF?? They are in no way related.
    Occasionally, we have to break our own rules and go against our principles in order to save those principles. Certain situations warrant that.

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  29. #119
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I always wondered about this... How eastern European languages have such weird nicknames...

    I was together with a girl, Olcia... I could also call her Alex... WTF?? They are in no way related.
    Jack is short for James.

    Olcia - hard C right? I can see you getting "Alex" from that.
    "If it wears trousers generally I don't pay attention."


  30. #120
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ukraine conflict episode 2 Putinīs Empire strikes back

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    I always wondered about this... How eastern European languages have such weird nicknames...

    I was together with a girl, Olcia... I could also call her Alex... WTF?? They are in no way related.
    second name, they give them there. Her name was probably Olcia Alex + surname
    Last edited by Fragony; 11-29-2014 at 13:58.
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