Ukraine Thread

[Husar]

Funny that one point is in Russian, another in English. That is for inner consumption it is a Ukrainian dish, for foreigners it is a Russian. Lost in translation?

Yes, it will even out once Russia joins the EU.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Can some one explain to me what the "western" propaganda has told me about Russia and Putin? After months of following this thread I still don't understand the case that Putin is somehow not a terrible person who is implementing aggressive expansionist policies.

[Montmorency]

Well, the terrible person part goes without saying, and doesn't add much to any discussion. I mean, even FDR was a terrible person, and he's one of the greatest leaders who ever lived.

Nevertheless,

[Husar]

Can some one explain to me what the "western" propaganda has told me about Russia and Putin? After months of following this thread I still don't understand the case that Putin is somehow not a terrible person who is implementing aggressive expansionist policies.

Because you actually believe all the western propaganda that there are supposedly russian soldiers in eastern ukraine and all these other lies about weapon convoys etc. None of which was proven and much of which was fake. Plenty of german citizens raised plenty of formal protest against these lies with german public TV stations. The TV stations ignored most of it, crying as though all these formal protests stopped them from working.

There is plenty of controversy about little things the media just didn't mention or unbased assumptions they made:
https://krautreporter.de/270--beschw...nd-zdf-zusetzt

It's all in German, unfortunately for you, the complaints are listed below the article and include the following:

A report claimed to show a picture of how russian tanks supposedly drive through a city under the eyes of media people.
Complaint: It's actually an archive picture from Caucasus 2008.
Reaction: Mistake has been corrected, apology on Twitter, it was just a slip-up.

A reporter claims two people were killed by separatists in Krasnoarmeysk.
Complaint: Actually the two people were killed by ukrainian soldiers, conclusive proof for which can be found on the internet.
Reaction: The mistake was admitted, they had to apologize and removed the original report.

There was also something about "captured russian tanks" where people complained because those were obviously ukrainian tanks and so on. Quite a few of the complaints are about minor details or strange/bogus complaints, but there are quite a few people who think our media are inherently biased on the issue and rather report the anti-Putin spin on the issue even when the situation isn't quite that black and white. Needless to say, the USA have also not managed to make a lot of friends around the world, don't get me started on what some south americans and others post on Facebook and some people think the US are just using Europe to further their own goals while Europe will have to take the brunt of the damage. Which is also an issue regarding TTIP, which will, according to some analyses, destroy a lot of jobs in Europe and create a lot in the USA. Now you may say the USA have a right to care only about themselves, but then I'll reply that Europeans have the same right in return. And that's why some here would prefer a cooperation with Russia rather than the USA. Obviously the 51st state is a special island and doesn't belong to Europe according to itself anyway.

Oh yeah, remember that time when there was conclusive proof for Iraqi WMDs all over the western media (supplied by the US) and Putin said they don't have any?
Credibility is not something you get by writing "good guy" onto your jackboots.

[Viking]

None of which was proven

We even have names of such Russian soldiers.

Anton Tumanov gave up his life for his country - but his country won’t say where, and it won’t say how.

His mother knows. She knows that Mr Tumanov, a 20 year-old junior sergeant in the Russian army, was killed in eastern Ukraine, torn apart in a rocket attack on August 13.

Yelena Tumanova, 41, learned these bare facts about her son’s death from one of his comrades, who saw him get hit and scooped up his body.

His death certificate, signed at a defence ministry forensic-medicine centre in Rostov-on-Don in southwest Russia on August 18, records that he died from an “explosion injury”, receiving “multiple shrapnel wounds to the lower limbs” that resulted in “acute, massive blood loss”. The certificate leaves unticked a box saying the cause of his injuries was “military hostilities”, preferring instead “origin not established”.

If 'proof' to you is Putin saying that he died there, then good luck.

[CrossLOPER]

Can some one explain to me what the "western" propaganda has told me about Russia and Putin? After months of following this thread I still don't understand the case that Putin is somehow not a terrible person who is implementing aggressive expansionist policies.

Context is a thing for the headsick.

[Husar]

We even have names of such Russian soldiers.

If 'proof' to you is Putin saying that he died there, then good luck.

Yeah, but it's not Putin's fault what they do there in their free time.

[Viking]

Yeah, but it's not Putin's fault what they do there in their free time.

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

[Gilrandir]

Because you actually believe all the western propaganda that there are supposedly russian soldiers in eastern ukraine and all these other lies about weapon convoys etc. None of which was proven and much of which was fake.

So when in late August the separatists were beaten on all fronts and liberation of Donbas was a question of a couple of weeks (admitted by Girkin himself - sure, you believe HIM?), all of a sudden they, alone and unaided, launched a prodigious counter attack and encircled Ukrainian army at Ilovaysk, evicted them from Savur Mohyla and expelled from Luhansk, some districts of which had been already under Ukrainian control.
I saw weather(and not only weather)-beaten soldiers - and I have no reason not to trust them - who said they were negotiating withdrawal of the encircled troops with RUSSIAN OFFICERS, who were procrastinating for quite a while expecting orders "from high above", as they put it.
And earlier, the storming of the central police department in Kramatorsk was done by untrained Ukrainan rebels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLX8KlgmUN8
I have already mentioned a special accent and a shibboleth revealing their Russian origin.
But, you are expecting Putin's speech which would directly claim the presence of his troops in Ukraine. Well, he may do it some day. In his memoirs.
As for the convoys, every time a new one arrives Ukrainian soldiers report more intense shelling of their positions. The last one was in Ukraine a couple of days ago and today the quantity of shellings was twice as much and four soldiers were killed.

There was also something about "captured russian tanks" where people complained because those were obviously ukrainian tanks and so on.

Yes, sure, all the tanks, BMWs, BMPs, and other vehicles as well as ammo are being mined by the separatists in weapon-rich deposits under fertile Donbas soil. Or, as an option, they constantly capture/recieve new ones from the Ukrainians, then take them to Russia and then to Ukraine again. The latter event was more than once detected by OSCE missions.

Oh yeah, remember that time when there was conclusive proof for Iraqi WMDs all over the western media (supplied by the US) and Putin said they don't have any?

Oh yeah, remember that time when Putin said there weren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea and then admitted it. Thus, we must believe whatever he is saying and will say in future.

Here is what options Soros sees for European strategy on Ukraine (and Russia).
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...escue-ukraine/

[Montmorency]

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

[Husar]

So when in late August the separatists were beaten on all fronts and liberation of Donbas was a question of a couple of weeks (admitted by Girkin himself - sure, you believe HIM?), all of a sudden they, alone and unaided, launched a prodigious counter attack and encircled Ukrainian army at Ilovaysk, evicted them from Savur Mohyla and expelled from Luhansk, some districts of which had been already under Ukrainian control.
I saw weather(and not only weather)-beaten soldiers - and I have no reason not to trust them - who said they were negotiating withdrawal of the encircled troops with RUSSIAN OFFICERS, who were procrastinating for quite a while expecting orders "from high above", as they put it.
And earlier, the storming of the central police department in Kramatorsk was done by untrained Ukrainan rebels?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLX8KlgmUN8
I have already mentioned a special accent and a shibboleth revealing their Russian origin.
But, you are expecting Putin's speech which would directly claim the presence of his troops in Ukraine. Well, he may do it some day. In his memoirs.
As for the convoys, every time a new one arrives Ukrainian soldiers report more intense shelling of their positions. The last one was in Ukraine a couple of days ago and today the quantity of shellings was twice as much and four soldiers were killed.

Russia wants to save the russian nationals just like the US tried in Iran and so on. It's just easier for Russia when it's right next to their border. All the big nations do this if they can. Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?
I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back. Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances. I mean there was hardly an army left at all when this conflict started, but now they're supposedly all professionals.

Yes, sure, all the tanks, BMWs, BMPs, and other vehicles as well as ammo are being mined by the separatists in weapon-rich deposits under fertile Donbas soil. Or, as an option, they constantly capture/recieve new ones from the Ukrainians, then take them to Russia and then to Ukraine again. The latter event was more than once detected by OSCE missions.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

Oh yeah, remember that time when Putin said there weren't any Russian soldiers in Crimea and then admitted it. Thus, we must believe whatever he is saying and will say in future.

Here is what options Soros sees for European strategy on Ukraine (and Russia).
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...escue-ukraine/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.
Putin only sent Russian soldiers to bring security to the island after local self-defense groups had already begun by themselves.

This is proven false by the fact that the bulk of them chose Normandy over the Riviera.

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there, I hear they like to trace their family trees in these countries. This could also explain why Russian soldiers go to Ukraine in their free time.

[Montmorency]

A lot of the British and US soldiers probably had ancestors from there

Don't be so Anglo-normative.

[Ice]

Husar, are you trolling? I honestly can't tell.

[Husar]

Husar, are you trolling? I honestly can't tell.

A little bit perhaps, every discussion needs a devil's advocate or it turns into a circlejerk of groupthink,. no?

[Gilrandir]

Ukrainian soldiers and other government agencies are always trustworthy for you, but to think they have no agenda/reason to lie would be rather naive, no?

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

I could also claim that we almost had the Russians when we were in front of Moscow and then suddenly they had new men and drove us back.

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

Maybe your army overstretched and didn't resupply properly, then blamed Russia for their failure to secure their advances.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

The OSCE is a NATO-tool, the "army" probably lost them or they switched sides and it's covered up with propaganda about russian involvement.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

Soros is a capitalist from the US, so much about reliable sources.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

[Husar]

The USSR had had then the territory and human resources to draw reinforcements from. The Lugandon territory was shrinking every day, so the same logics doesn't apply here.

the Russian terrirtory was also shrinking every day, it just wasn't shrinking fast enough, just like Lugandon wasn't shrinking fast enough before the Russians came to help.

If the evidence comes from multiple mouths then no. People from voluntary battalions, army and intelligence gave pretty much the same picture of negotiations with Russian army officers at Ilovaysk. But, perhaps it again is no proof for you, so keep believing the outstanding ability of BMP-driven russian soldiers to lose themselves 20 km deep from the border.

It couldn't have happened on all fronts, especially in the south where there were NO SEPARATISTS' FORCES ALTOGETHER.

And keeps losing and losing ammo and weapons every day. And all of them brand new ones produced within the last year or two with accompanying documents referring them to certain detachments of Russian regular army. And this one also came from Ukranian depots:
https://mh17.correctiv.org/english/

A lot of claims by NATO experts and Ukrainian soldiers, just because there are many people with good reasons to lie, there is no reason to believe their every word.

It is not about reliabilty, it is a reading to consider.
Perhaps, this is mor reliable for you:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...washingtonpost

So you admit that reliability or accuracy of information is of no concern for you?
And why would life in Russia not be great for a middle-aged, well-off straight guy?

[Gilrandir]

the Russian terrirtory was also shrinking every day, it just wasn't shrinking fast enough, just like Lugandon wasn't shrinking fast enough before the Russians came to help.
A lot of claims by NATO experts and Ukrainian soldiers, just because there are many people with good reasons to lie, there is no reason to believe their every word.

You know perfectly well the size of the USSR left unoccupied by Germans in 1941. Compare it with the size Lugandon had in late August last year and you will have your answer.
But, I'm not going to start all over again what has been discussed for quite a time here as word-bandying will yeild no result. The only thing that brings me comfort is the word "Lugandon" you used. So subconsciously you expressed your attitude to the subject of discussion.

So you admit that reliability or accuracy of information is of no concern for you?

As for the Soros article, since it offers his vision on the FUTURE development of the situation, it is irrelevant. It is the personal view of a well-known and experienced politician whose opinion may be interesting to know and (considering his influence) not a thing to be disregarded.
If you speak of the MH17 article, I don't see why it is not reliable or accurate.

[Husar]

You know perfectly well the size of the USSR left unoccupied by Germans in 1941. Compare it with the size Lugandon had in late August last year and you will have your answer.
But, I'm not going to start all over again what has been discussed for quite a time here as word-bandying will yeild no result. The only thing that brings me comfort is the word "Lugandon" you used. So subconsciously you expressed your attitude to the subject of discussion.

You also say Lugandon, I just copied that. What you missed was the elephant in the room and that wasn't subconscious, that was left there on purpose.

As for the Soros article, since it offers his vision on the FUTURE development of the situation, it is irrelevant. It is the personal view of a well-known and experienced politician whose opinion may be interesting to know and (considering his influence) not a thing to be disregarded.
If you speak of the MH17 article, I don't see why it is not reliable or accurate.

Sometimes people "predict" the future they want instead of the future that would happen if the future they predict didn't turn out to be a self-fulfilling prophecy just because they predicted it and everybody believes them and acts accordingly.
If I predict today that Russia will strike the US tomorrow and the US launch nuclear bombers to circle near the russian border because I'm so reliable, then maybe Russia will actually strike tomorrow, but not because they were going to anyway, but because the bombers were sent there due to my "prediction". An extreme example, but predictions can have that effect, if perhaps on a smaller scale.

MH-17 was shot down by a ukrainian aircraft that can't even fly that high, this was proven long ago by a random german airline pilot. I argued that it was a SAM at the time but thankfully people forget so fast.

[Gilrandir]

If I predict today that Russia will strike the US tomorrow and the US launch nuclear bombers to circle near the russian border because I'm so reliable, then maybe Russia will actually strike tomorrow, but not because they were going to anyway, but because the bombers were sent there due to my "prediction".

If you have the money and influence of Soros, one should take such predictions seriously. But, hey, who can say you don't. Perhaps we are talking to... oh God, George, is that you?

I argued that it was a SAM at the time but thankfully people forget so fast.

Specify what you mean by SAM. I have several options to Offer: System for Awards Management, Supplier Approval Module, Space Available Mail, Self Adjusting Matress, Smart Assed Masochist...

[Husar]

Specify what you mean by SAM. I have several options to Offer: System for Awards Management, Supplier Approval Module, Space Available Mail, Self Adjusting Matress, Smart Assed Masochist...

I think it was a Ukrainian Self Adjusting Matress.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think it was a Ukrainian Self Adjusting Matress.

....and what would the p0rn industry be without those?

[Gilrandir]

....and what would the p0rn industry be without those?

Change Ukrainian into German and you have nailed it.

[Gilrandir]

If you have the money and influence of Soros, one should take such predictions seriously. But, hey, who can say you don't. Perhaps we are talking to... oh God, George, is that you?

And now he is in Kyiv.
http://en.cyplive.com/ru/news/dzhord...yl-v-kiev.html

[Gilrandir]

http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...a-fantasy.html

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Change Ukrainian into German and you have nailed it.

Not planning to personally nail ANYONE connected with that industry.

[Kralizec]

Well, yes. It was a French beach holiday by allied soldiers that was the beginning of the end for Hitler.

Indeed. Just like how in the Korean war the communist north managed to turn the tide in the middle of the summer. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese tourists, all eager to lend a hand.

[Ironside]

Indeed. Just like how in the Korean war the communist north managed to turn the tide in the middle of the summer. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese tourists, all eager to lend a hand.

With the high command's explicit approval. Actively state employed troops doing that would be prosecuted for desertion otherwise.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

With the high command's explicit approval. Actively state employed troops doing that would be prosecuted for desertion otherwise.

But they were "volunteers!" They simply happened to volunteer in organized units inherited from the PLA. They were a separate force {see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Volunteer_Army} entirely....

[Strike For The South]

It is January 13th, 2015 and Putin is still a fascist.

[CrossLOPER]

It is January 13th, 2015 and Putin is still a fascist.

You accidentally failed to use comic sans.