Ukraine Thread

[Gilrandir]

Syria seems super funny (if we ignore the actual human tragedies for a moment).
Lots of refugees noone wants,, lots of parties noone supports and now the only big power in the world that wants to get boots on the grounds to stop the islamists by supporting the similarly disliked dictator is so unorganized that it cannot even get its own soldiers to go.

After his "Russian spring" debacle, for Putin Syria seems to be the last chance to get his boots on the ground at least somewhere, to prove (to himself and to his supporters) that he is still a world player with a long reach and perhaps to exchange something in Donbas and Crimea for his Syrian (non)involvement.


Don't know if you heard this one:
http://www.rferl.org/content/ukraine.../27233898.html

According to Russian sources, the nickname Yatsenyuk used participating in Chechen war was ... ready? ... "Viking".

[Hooahguy]

Ok so slightly off topic to the immediate discussion, does anyone know what the official Greek position on the Ukraine crisis? I know that they voted for more sanctions on Russia after the annexation and they officially condemned Russian intervention, but then Alexis Tsipras said that the EU shouldnt be supporting the far-right Ukrainian government. Cant really find anything else on the topic though and I have to represent the Greek position on Ukraine tomorrow.

[Crandar]

Ok so slightly off topic to the immediate discussion, does anyone know what the official Greek position on the Ukraine crisis? I know that they voted for more sanctions on Russia after the annexation and they officially condemned Russian intervention, but then Alexis Tsipras said that the EU shouldnt be supporting the far-right Ukrainian government. Cant really find anything else on the topic though and I have to represent the Greek position on Ukraine tomorrow.

Initially,SYRIZA commented positively on Russia, but they quickly changed their position and supported the EU's sanctions. It was more of a PR movement to please their leftist audience, not a conscious change of policy.
The only sympathetic towards Russia members of SYRIZA left the party and formed a new one, called Popular Unity, which failed to get in the Parliament in today's elections. So, SYRIZA Greece is not anything special, in fact, they are sometimes rather pro-NATO, with a very friendly stance towards Kosovo and a request to NATO to augment its military presence in the Aegean Sea.

[Hooahguy]

Gotcha. So while they are pro-NATO as you say, it kind of seems like in the other hand they are cozying up to Russia. I remember reading a while ago that they are thinking about letting Russia use some Greek bases. So it kinda seems like they arent really as pro-NATO as you say they are as if they were, then I dont think they would be as friendly to Russia as they are right now. Maybe not so much as not voting for sanctions or condemning the annexation of the Crimea, but considering that NATO needs a unanimous vote to take action should something happen, then a Greece that is friendly to Russia could be a dangerous thing.

[Montmorency]

It's called 'covering your bases'. See also: leverage.

[Hooahguy]

That is actually an interesting aspect I have not thought of: warming up to Russia could just be used as leverage, maybe to persuade the rest of the EU to ease off the pressure for the debt crisis. Or threaten them for relief.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is actually an interesting aspect I have not thought of: warming up to Russia could just be used as leverage, maybe to persuade the rest of the EU to ease off the pressure for the debt crisis. Or threaten them for relief.

Bingo.

On the other hand, remember that there are many stupid people on the Left who still think Russia is politically more left-wing than Western Europe or the US.

Like I said, they're stupid people.

[Crandar]

Gotcha. So while they are pro-NATO as you say, it kind of seems like in the other hand they are cozying up to Russia. I remember reading a while ago that they are thinking about letting Russia use some Greek bases. So it kinda seems like they arent really as pro-NATO as you say they are as if they were, then I dont think they would be as friendly to Russia as they are right now. Maybe not so much as not voting for sanctions or condemning the annexation of the Crimea, but considering that NATO needs a unanimous vote to take action should something happen, then a Greece that is friendly to Russia could be a dangerous thing.

Their friendly towards Russia policy stopped only a month or two after they got elected. The ministry of defense even suggested to give an entire island to NATO (Carpathus) and join their fight against ISIS and ally ourselves with el-Sisi.
In my opinion, they leverage is NATO not Russia, they repeatedly tried to threaten Merkel, by approaching USA and planning something laughable, like replacing Puerto Rico as a new state of America. I'm not kidding, that scenario was seriously examined by some far-right nutjobs that participated in the government.

In what concerns our alliance with the US and membership of NATO, every part is in favour of them, with three exceptions:

Popular Unity (which broke away from SYRIZA) is the sort of stupid leftists who think that Russia is more progressive than the US.

Golden Dawn, not because Putin finances them, but the Greek nationalism was always tied with Russia and the third Constantinople. Same religion, anti-turkish foreign policy and we got independence and Thessaly thanks to them.

That is actually an interesting aspect I have not thought of: warming up to Russia could just be used as leverage, maybe to persuade the rest of the EU to ease off the pressure for the debt crisis. Or threaten them for relief.

Perhaps, that's an explanation for their behaviou, but when their approach to Putin failed (last spring), there was no point at continuing it. All the media attacked them very aggressively (just for visiting Moscow) and they probably realised that they lost not gained votes.

The Communist Party of Greece supports neither side in the Ukrainian Civil War, believing it is a fight between urban classes, one supporter of the West the other of Russia, so the Ukrainain people do not have common interests with them. There was an interesting article about a communist leader of some East-Russian partisans who got assassinated, probably by his fellow pro-Russian partisans, but it's not in English.

[Hooahguy]

Thanks for the info! You wouldn't happen to have any links to articles that I could read that talks about this, would you? Nothing I found is anywhere close to the kind of analysis you are giving. Or maybe my google-fu just sucks.

[Montmorency]

Don't forget economic ties. Aside from historic relationship or current Russian business presence/land ownership, t simply makes sense at this point for Greece to court Russian investment, not just because it creates potential political leverage in the EU - not because Greece is suddenly Russia's ally, but because Russia can improve its hopes of building that new pipeline - but also because, hey, capital investment either way (hopefully).

[Crandar]

Montmorancy made a great point, SYRIZA made a half-hearted attempt to attract Russian investors, but they declined, in order not to piss Europe even more. The pipelines between Russia-Turkey-Greece and Burgos-Dedeagac have long been planned, but never materialised due to our conflicting interests with NATO.
A popular conspiracy theory.

Thanks for the info! You wouldn't happen to have any links to articles that I could read that talks about this, would you? Nothing I found is anywhere close to the kind of analysis you are giving. Or maybe my google-fu just sucks.

Well, what I said is mainly based on mainstream greek newspapers, the communist newspaper "Radical" and my general knowledge about the pest of greek nationalism. So, I'll try to find some english-speaking sites, but don't expect much.

The only part that is easily sourceable is that we got Thessaly after the Berlin Conference* (1878) and that the Ottoman-Russian War of 1828-9, practically forced the Sultan to recognise the greek independence.


*In that war, Greece obviously wanted to ally herself with Russia, but her military weakness and the British fleet prevented her from doing so. Finally, they found the courage to declare war against the Ottoman Empire and when they did, they learnt that a ceasefire had been signed some hours ago between the Czar and the Sultan. Everyone panicked and feared that we would be steamrolled by the entire Ottoman military machine, but Russia, France and Britain intervened and stopped one of the shortest war in history...

[Gilrandir]

Montmorancy made a great point, SYRIZA made a half-hearted attempt to attract Russian investors, but they declined, in order not to piss Europe even more. The pipelines between Russia-Turkey-Greece and Burgos-Dedeagac have long been planned, but never materialised due to our conflicting interests with NATO.

I think if Russia had some money to spare at that moment Tsipras' shuttling between it and NATO/EU might have brought him more political dividends. He was wise enough to see the economic handicap of current Russia not to pin his hopes on any projects it promised to finance.

[Hooahguy]

Well, what I said is mainly based on mainstream greek newspapers, the communist newspaper "Radical" and my general knowledge about the pest of greek nationalism. So, I'll try to find some english-speaking sites, but don't expect much.

Thanks. Would you be able to post a few links? I dont read Greek but Im sure I can run some articles through Google translate and get some good up to date info.

[Crandar]

Thanks. Would you be able to post a few links? I dont read Greek but Im sure I can run some articles through Google translate and get some good up to date info.

http://foreignaffairs.gr/articles/69...smos?page=show
http://www.xryshaygh.com/enimerosi/v...ai-chrush-augh
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=8595498
http://www.novafm106.gr/articles/pol...terrorism.html
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=7859910
http://www.rizospastis.gr/story.do?id=7851660
http://www.rizospastis.gr/page.do?pu...5399&pageNo=13

I'll try to find more. Be careful with the translation, because google is very problematic, when it comes to greek, due to the very complicated nature of our grammar.

[Gilrandir]

Just in case anyone is still interested and to keep people updated:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...imea/72629660/
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/0...014154471.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...0RP17O20150925
http://www.dw.com/en/poland-furious-...wii/a-18743484

[Gilrandir]

Could it mean something?
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/0...htewing-214223

[Gilrandir]

Lavrov published an article.
http://en.mid.ru/en/web/guest/foreig...ent/id/1913344
What attracts attention in it is:
1) official Russia uses "compatriot" in the unconventional sense "people of Russian origin who are citizens of OTHER countries " which gives it an official reason to meddle into the affairs of other countries;
2) extensive use of capitalized words.

[Gilrandir]

A valid comparison?
http://dailysignal.com/2015/11/05/wh...edom-fighters/

[Gilrandir]

Zakharchenko admits Surkov's participation in events in Donbas from the very first day. So much for rioting populaces.
http://www.unian.info/politics/11783...onbas-war.html

[Gilrandir]

On russia revisioning history:
http://www.sueddeutsche.de/politik/m...iegt-1.2742497

[Gilrandir]

A summary of the latest events:
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...y-to-negotiate

[Strike For The South]

It's 2016 and Putin is still a fascist.

[Fragony]

It's 2016 and Putin is still a fascist.

So are some parts of the other side http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments (just the video's)

Oh noes LOL we already have jihadi's ruining our comfortable bliss, please no extreme rightists on tops

[Viking]

So are some parts of the other side http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments (just the video's)

Oh noes LOL we already have jihadi's ruining our comfortable bliss, please no extreme rightists on tops

Fake.

If they belong to the right, it's probably the Russian right.

[Fragony]

Fake.

If they belong to the right, it's probably the Russian right.

Crossed my mind heh, probably

[Hooahguy]

It's 2016 and Putin is still a fascist.

[Gilrandir]

Crossed my mind heh, probably

Don't you understand that it is aimed to influence the results of the April referendum in the Netherlands on AA with Ukraine? I believe more such stuff is to come from Russia, the sooner the referendum date is, the more fakes you will see.

[Fragony]

Don't you understand that it is aimed to influence the results of the April referendum in the Netherlands on AA with Ukraine? I believe more such stuff is to come from Russia, the sooner the referendum date is, the more fakes you will see.

Of course it's about that. And yeah the chance it's fake is high

[Fragony]

You two were most likely right.

It's getting kinda silly that referendum, CIA is investigating possible ties to Putin. That's pretty lol. Referendum was enfforced by the perfectly harmless weblog Geenstijl who urge those in favour to vote as well. It's not legally binding anyway, they can (and will) ignore the outcome.

[Gilrandir]

You two were most likely right.

It's getting kinda silly that referendum, CIA is investigating possible ties to Putin. That's pretty lol. Referendum was enfforced by the perfectly harmless weblog Geenstijl who urge those in favour to vote as well. It's not legally binding anyway, they can (and will) ignore the outcome.

How will you vote?