Congratulations Sweden

[Sarmatian]

people who are native Dutch don't have to live in trailers,as they do because all immigrants get priority

I'm lost for comment on so many levels.

[Fragony]

I'm lost for comment on so many levels.

Simply what it says. Immigrants get priority, 6 months max. Native Dutch get to be on the waiting list every time an immigrant gets priority, which is standard, and on average that is 7 years. Not everyone can buy a house as houses are really expensive, renting one in the free-sector is also something most can't afford, so people with a normal salary have to wait untill a home comes free. But immigrants have instant love so they have to wait for years and years. Immigrants however get it right away, well not right away, but they get priority over native Dutch. That is not populist talk, it is policy and that is a fact. The EU demands we take thousands (estimation 40.000 next year) more but there arent enough houses. And because of that native Dutch will have to wait even longer. Immigrants first, first a house, free healthcare, first everything really.

Imho, people who vote for pro-EU parties should get the weight on the shoulders of those who don't, and give these people a room in their own house if there isn't a house available.

[Sarmatian]

Simply what it says. Immigrants get priority, 6 months max. Native Dutch get to be on the waiting list every time an immigrant gets priority, which is standard, and on average that is 7 years. Not everyone can buy a house as houses are really expensive, renting one in the free-sector is also something most can't afford, so people with a normal salary have to wait untill a home comes free. But immigrants have instant love so they have to wait for years and years. Immigrants however get it right away, well not right away, but they get priority over native Dutch. That is not populist talk, it is policy and that is a fact. The EU demands we take thousands (estimation 40.000 next year) more but there arent enough houses. And because of that native Dutch will have to wait even longer. Immigrants first, first a house, free healthcare, first everything really.

Imho, people who vote for pro-EU parties should get the weight on the shoulders of those who don't, and give these people a room in their own house if there isn't a house available.

Do you actually know the procedures involved or the differences between types of immigration? The costs? The taxes payed to the government of the receiving country, which aren't refunded if you're denied access?

I stopped trying after about 6 months. When I was looking into emigrating to Australia (among other countries), I found out that I would have to pay between 5 and 10 thousands Australian dollars just for the paperwork and taxes to Australian government. If I get accepted after that, I would have to pay another 10 to 20 thousands, not counting additional expenses or the plane ticket.

When I found out that in the best case I would have to pay at least 30 000 euros to get to Australia, and that the process would likely take a few years, I lost interest.

And I'm a highly educated white male with work experience who's fluent in English.

And, before you ask, European countries are generally worse, it's more difficult to emigrate there. Netherlands is among the hardest to move to.

[Fragony]

Yeah I know the procedure. Every time an immigrant comes in a Dutchman is back on the waiting-list for getting a house because immigrants get priority. EU rule. Of which we clearly said no against but got anyway. We don't have that much space we are already the most densily populated country in the world, there are no houses. Of course it is difficult to come here as a legal immigrant, your place has been given away.

Let me give you an example by the way, a notoriously criminal Marrocan family in Amsterdam had no less than 35 organisations looking over them, source, La Figaro. The left needs the useless like a junk needs heroin. You are not welcome because you would do fine because you don't need them. The broken window theory in action. Hopelessly incapable immigrants are preffered to get the carroussel going.

[Sarmatian]

Yeah I know the procedure. Every time an immigrant comes in a Dutchman is back on the waiting-list for getting a house because immigrants get priority. EU rule. Of which we clearly said no against but got anyway. We don't have that much space we are already the most densily populated country in the world, there are no houses. Of course it is difficult to come here as a legal immigrant, your place has been given away.

Which EU rule?

If you're from a non-Shengen country, you're denied access to Netherlands and can't seek an asylum. All Shengen countries are considered safe and thus there are no grounds for asylum (ie. all asylum requests are automatically denied).

If you manage to find yourself in Netherlands and ask for an asylum, you don't get a house, you get placed in a shelter while your request is processed. Netherlands is notorious for having one of the strictest systems for asylum seekers.

So, please, what are you talking about?

Disclaimer: There may be special rules for your ex colonies, I really don't know anything about that.

[Fragony]

Which EU rule?

If you're from a non-Shengen country, you're denied access to Netherlands and can't seek an asylum. All Shengen countries are considered safe and thus there are no grounds for asylum (ie. all asylum requests are automatically denied).

If you manage to find yourself in Netherlands and ask for an asylum, you don't get a house, you get placed in a shelter while your request is processed. Netherlands is notorious for having one of the strictest systems for asylum seekers.

So, please, what are you talking about?

Disclaimer: There may be special rules for your ex colonies, I really don't know anything about that.

Once it's granted you get priority over Dutch citizens when getting a house, and many other benefits that native Dutch have to pay for. As a legal immigrant getting here is easy, you will get the same costs as us though. Cut 2/3 out of every euro you make. Everything is taxed, even dying.

Edit, that's not to say that our immigration-policiies can be cruel, and really random. Friend of mine lived in front of asylum centre and they always were welcome when we had a party. A Pakistani guy who was told he could stay made us a big dinner, next day he was gone, never heard anything about him anymore. All I know is that he was directly going to the airport when he thought he was going to work.

[Sarmatian]

Once it's granted you get priority over Dutch citizens when getting a house, and many other benefits that native Dutch have to pay for. As a legal immigrant getting here is easy, you will get the same costs as us though. Cut 2/3 out of every euro you make. Everything is taxed, even dying.

Edit, that's not to say that our immigration-policiies can be cruel, and really random. Friend of mine lived in front of asylum centre and they always were welcome when we had a party. A Pakistani guy who was told he could stay made us a big dinner, next day he was gone, never heard anything about him anymore. All I know is that he was directly going to the airport when he thought he was going to work.

Well, in 2012, you guys had 12 000 asylum requests, with more than 50% denied, and Dutch government is taking actions to significantly reduce that figure further.

Once they are granted asylum, they're legal immigrants, by the way. In 2012, Netherlands had 160 000 immigrants, so those immigrants you complain about make about 3-4% of the immigration. Between 2000-2011, about 20% of immigrants were Dutch, and good portion (over 10 000) were from Surinam and Dutch Antilles. Most immigration is from EU countries, and from non-EU countries, China's the biggest contributor.

On the whole, in the last 15 years, similar number of people that immigrated to Netherlands emigrated from Netherlands.

As someone who looked into moving to Netherlands from a non EU country, I can tell you that it's not at all easy. You need one of two things
1) a job offer
2) an education in field in which there's a lack of qualified workers in Netherlands.

You've been fed a fairy tale by xenophobes my friend, and you believed.

[Husar]

As someone who looked into moving to Netherlands from a non EU country, I can tell you that it's not at all easy. You need one of two things
1) a job offer
2) an education in field in which there's a lack of qualified workers in Netherlands.

Yeah, or you have to come from a country where you can be assumed to be prosecuted unfairly so you can ask for asylum.
We actually have similar rules and I'm missing one where citizens can vouch for someone to stay, makes me miss feudalism.

[Fragony]

I don't know if these numbers are true, but alas, people from the former colonies can come here legally without a problem, they get nothing for free, they have to pay the same thing we do, no for them benefit at all, they are legal immigrants. Different thing. Point is, Dutch people are discriminated because refugees get priority when it comes to getting the houses, there are simply not enough. Take a look at a map and take into consideration how small the Netherlands is, and how many people live in it. It's simply not possible to handle the influx the EU demands from us.

[Sarmatian]

I don't know if these numbers are true, but alas, people from the former colonies can come here legally without a problem, they get nothing for free, they have to pay the same thing we do, no for them benefit at all, they are legal immigrants. Different thing. Point is, Dutch people are discriminated because refugees get priority when it comes to getting the houses, there are simply not enough. Take a look at a map and take into consideration how small the Netherlands is, and how many people live in it. It's simply not possible to handle the influx the EU demands from us.

In 2006 and 2007, you actually had negative migration, more people left than settled in the country.

In 2011, you had about 160 000 immigrants and 134 000 emigrants. That's a net positive of 26 000. Taking into account lower birth rate and longer lives in general, that's a necessity to keep the economy functioning. It's also 7 000 less than in 2010 since emigration is on the rise, even faster than immigration. According to statistics, by 2040, population of the Netherlands will increase only by 1.1 million, to 17.6 million. Netherlands on the whole has quite a restrictive and selective immigration policy, basically the government is allowing only enough immigration to keep economy functioning in the long term*.

Those people that do get houses is because they have suffered severe persecution and need something to get a fresh start. We're talking about a few thousand people that truly need help, because they need to be integrated into society as soon as possible and become productive memberss. It's insignificant number overall, especially considering the strength of the Dutch economy.

*My conclusion, after looking at the figures and policies

[Fragony]

A lot of people leaving are Dutch themselve. I can't really answer because I don't know, or make any sense out of it on how it works, who can stay or not, it seems to be random to me, I can't provide the answers.

[Sarmatian]

A lot of people leaving are Dutch themselve. I can't really answer because I don't know, or make any sense out of it on how it works, who can stay or not, it seems to be random to me, I can't provide the answers.

Of course. Like some people come to Netherlands to find their fortune, some Dutch leave to find their fortune somewhere else. There's nothing wrong with that. Some Dutch come back, some go somewhere else, some non-Dutch come, some non-Dutch go back or go somewhere else.

Just wondering Frags, how can you have such a strong opinion on immigration without checking the basic facts, like how many immigrants/emigrants there are? How many of those seek political asylum? Their ethnicity/country of origin? How it affects the demographics of Netherlands?

[Paltmull]

Hi Fragony. I'm going to quote myself a third time now. I suggest you bookmark this post so you can read it the next time you want to discuss this subject.

Norway no problems, must be kidding me. If you bring your wife when you go on a holiday to Norway she's more likely to get raped than in any African country. If you stay on the countryside it's all fine, but the city's have been enriched with people with culture. Norway and Sweden are on the top on the rape index, leaving even South-Africa gloriously behind

Edit, must be updated, Sweden is now one point below South-Africa scoring an impressive 17, leaving many third world countries behind, impressive. Denmark proudly is on number seven where women are most likely to be raped in the universe and surroundings, blessfull Norway sits at 13, just beating Pakistan that is 14

Yep

Of course import of people who have culture has nothing to do with it

I know this post is quite early in the thread, but I've got to reply:

Seriously? Come on. Here's an old post that I wrote on this subject about a year ago:

[...] I just want to point out a couple of facts regarding Swedish rape statistics. One important explanation for the high Swedish rape rates is the fact that Swedish rape laws since 2005 are more including than the laws of most other countries. Cases that earlier would have been classified as sexual exploitation are now classified as rape. Since 2005, the numbers of charges for sexual exploitation have decreased and those for rape have increased.

You can read about the Swedish statistics for rape and sex offence here (an article in English at the website of the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention) if you are interested. Another factor that they point out, which I think is very important, is a growing tendency to report rape crimes to the police (probably due to increased gender equality among other things). Of course Sweden doesn't have the third most rapes in the world. The claim that Sweden has more rapes than, say, Congo is of course completely absurd.

I don't know where you looked up the statistics, but Nationmaster presents the same statistics and is the top hit on Google, so I suppose that's your source. If you look at the bottom of the page you'll see the claim that "Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalence."

Furthermore, Finland - our neighbouring country that has the same rape percentage as Sweden - barely has any immigration at all.

[...]

Here's another good article that confirms what I've written above. It explains that, although Sweden tops the statistics of reported sex crimes, the estimation of actual commited sex crimes is at about European average.

As many rapes as South Africa? Please.

Bye!

[Kadagar_AV]

How about assault and gang rapes paltmull?

How do that curve look next to raised immigration from the Middle East and Africa?

Can you explain the vast increase by laws, or some other cultural change?

[Fragony]

It is always a tragedy for wishfull thinkers when wishfull thinking doesn't resonate all that well with reality. Why don't you go looking for yourself. My advice: don't, stay the hell out of there and be thankful that you can.

[Papewaio]

I agree with immigration.

However it is a fallacy that you need to have more people, one only needs to look at Japan.

Japan is an aging population, decreasing birth rates and overall been trending economically downwards. However the per capita wealth has gone up.

More people means a bigger pie and more mouths to go around. So if the pie doesn't grow fast enough immigration can make a place worse off. Intergration takes time so the costs are upfront and the benefits down the line on a generational time scale.

[Fragony]

Hi Fragony. I'm going to quote myself a third time now. I suggest you bookmark this post so you can read it the next time you want to discuss this subject.



Bye!

You are absolutily right, South Africa has the most rapes in the world. Sweden is second. Hey, I am just parroting the UN. Of ALL rapes 77.6% were muslim males. Quite an enrichment to Swedish culture.

What do the Swedes do? Wearingg a hijjab in protest because some jerkattacked a muslim girl

bye indeed

[Husar]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372

Which two countries are the kidnapping capitals of the world?

Australia and Canada.

Official figures from the United Nations show that there were 17 kidnaps per 100,000 people in Australia in 2010 and 12.7 in Canada.

That compares with only 0.6 in Colombia and 1.1 in Mexico.

You're mostly parroting anti-muslim bloggers who do not know how these statistics work.

[Fragony]

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-19592372



You're mostly parroting anti-muslim bloggers who do not know how these statistics work.

Comes from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet – Brå). BRÅ is an agency under the Ministry of Justice and is a centre for research and development within the judicial system.

The statistics of the amount of rapes comes from the UN.

[Husar]

Comes from the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet – Brå). BRÅ is an agency under the Ministry of Justice and is a centre for research and development within the judicial system.

The statistics of the amount of rapes comes from the UN.

It's the conclusions that you are parroting from those blogs. And apparently you didn't bother to read the link I provided as it doesn't claim anywhere that the numbers are wrong, it only says they're absolutely not comparable. Take this for example about Sweden:

"So, for instance, when a woman comes to the police and she says my husband or my fiance raped me almost every day during the last year, the police have to record each of these events, which might be more than 300 events. In many other countries it would just be one record - one victim, one type of crime, one record."

[Fragony]

whatever you want Hussie

[Husar]

whatever you want Hussie

I want you to realize that the number of rapes Sweden submits to the UN is not comparable to the one Mauritania or even Germany submits to the UN:

1. Not every country submits a number at all.
2. Some countries submit a zero or a number very close to zero, do you actually believe that, too?
3. In some countries women fear that they cannot trust the police with such a sensitive subject and/or do not want to appear as victims.
4. In some countries women cannot trust the police and the police will not record their case and/or not believe them.
5. Even if a country has reported cases and trustworthy police, the recording may not take place according to the same rules.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I want you to realize that the number of rapes Sweden submits to the UN is not comparable to the one Mauritania or even Germany submits to the UN:

1. Not every country submits a number at all.
2. Some countries submit a zero or a number very close to zero, do you actually believe that, too?
3. In some countries women fear that they cannot trust the police with such a sensitive subject and/or do not want to appear as victims.
4. In some countries women cannot trust the police and the police will not record their case and/or not believe them.
5. Even if a country has reported cases and trustworthy police, the recording may not take place according to the same rules.

I'd like to extend on this noting that numerous places only use the term "rape" to denote what we in the USA label "stranger rape." Definitions for what should be reported aren't even truly equivalent and then you have to add in all of the reportage limitations noted by Husar above.

A zero rape count is, sadly, even less likely than I'madinnerjacket's enumeration of Iranian homosexuals.

[Husar]

I just found this nice article that shines an interesting light on the whole Sweden-debate this topic started with.
Apparently the problem is that Sweden is only so very tolerant according to its laws and in theory, but in practice minorities, including immigrants, are marginalized, don't get jobs and are often victims of hate crimes.

So the idea to portray the idea of integration of immigrants as a failure of the immigrants to integrate is quite wrong, given that swedish society is not nearly as inclusive as the outside image suggests. What people from the right call the "failed experiment" never actually took off, there was no experiment, just an attempt to start one that most people then rejected and didn't participate in. And now, as usual, the racists blame "the others", whom they refused from the outset, for not integrating well enough, "despite all those efforts" that never actually happened.

Article: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...245833711.html

Like the rest of Europe, Sweden prides itself in its constitutional tradition based on a "respect for the equal worth of all and the liberty and dignity of the individual", as its constitution says.

But as the UN Working Group of Experts on People of African Descent concluded on its visit to Sweden the same week that the Sweden Democrats forced the country into early elections:

"It is our view that the Swedish philosophy of equality and its public and self-image as a country with non-discrimination and liberal democracy, blinds it to the racism faced by Afro-Swedes and Africans in its midst. No country is free of racism and Sweden is not an exception."

We can conclude that the problem is not too much multiculti, but too little of it, even in Sweden...

[Kadagar_AV]

I just found this nice article that shines an interesting light on the whole Sweden-debate this topic started with.
Apparently the problem is that Sweden is only so very tolerant according to its laws and in theory, but in practice minorities, including immigrants, are marginalized, don't get jobs and are often victims of hate crimes.

So the idea to portray the idea of integration of immigrants as a failure of the immigrants to integrate is quite wrong, given that swedish society is not nearly as inclusive as the outside image suggests. What people from the right call the "failed experiment" never actually took off, there was no experiment, just an attempt to start one that most people then rejected and didn't participate in. And now, as usual, the racists blame "the others", whom they refused from the outset, for not integrating well enough, "despite all those efforts" that never actually happened.

Article: http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...245833711.html



We can conclude that the problem is not too much multiculti, but too little of it, even in Sweden...

Oh my... Where to begin.

Frags starts a thread about Sweden... And then other foreigners chip in...

And now Husar beats it up a notch with an Al Jazeera link about Sweden... Yeah, you won the debate there dude



I only come in here to smack down the most stupid stuff...

[Kadagar_AV]

Just a note but we do - 560,000 this year (march 2013 to march 2014) - Germany does as well (1,226,000 in 2013) - what you are complaining about is actually normal for Europe as a whole...

Missed this post.

Would you please source that England gave permanent residency and citizen status to 560.000 and Germany to 1.226.000 people in a year? It goes against what I have been told (and have read).

I think you are just wrong, simple as that.

Wait, let me rephrase that: I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. So there.

Swedens immigration politics is extreme, and you can't compare that to seasonal workers or others who don't get citizenship.

[Sir Moody]

Missed this post.

Would you please source that England gave permanent residency and citizen status to 560.000 and Germany to 1.226.000 people in a year? It goes against what I have been told (and have read).

I think you are just wrong, simple as that.

Wait, let me rephrase that: I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG. So there.

Swedens immigration politics is extreme, and you can't compare that to seasonal workers or others who don't get citizenship.

German : https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigu...n/Current.html

According to provisional results, 1,226,000 people immigrated to Germany in 2013.

UK : http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/late...ion-statistics

I actually found a more up to date figure - 583,000 total immigration

[Kadagar_AV]

German : https://www.destatis.de/EN/FactsFigu...n/Current.html



UK : http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/late...ion-statistics

I actually found a more up to date figure - 583,000 total immigration

Did they get citizenship? As it looks, that figure counts guest workers such as me (working a season as ski instructor as an example).

[Sir Moody]

Did they get citizenship? As it looks, that figure counts guest workers such as me (working a season as ski instructor as an example).

Like all immigration stats (your own country included) it includes anyone who is granted residence.

Edit - just realised I was wrong its granted Residence not Permanent Residence which would be citizenship - have confirmed however this is also true of Swedish immigration stats

[Fragony]

Real question is, do you want to have your enviroment go to hell just because it makes people won't will be part of any participation feel good about themselves, cozy within the comfortable bliss that is being absolutily morally superior, no questions asked, and none allowed.

It really isn't such a good idea to import people from the third world for votes. People who have to deal with what is wrong can tell. Soooo, let's bring it home. People who vote multiculti should be the first to give up their spare rooms.

But that won't be an option will it, multiculti is something others should do, amice. Let's start with Lady Ashton, is a baronnes, has a castle. Plenty of spare rooms probably. While a friend of mine lives on a camping because immigrants get priority because the EU wants it to be like that. I would apreciate it if she buys their food as well, saves my friend waiting for an hour waiting in the line for handouts.

And yeah, why can't I just take him in, I did exactly that though, 3 months didn't burden my 40square meter kingdom all that much.