News from Arabia

[Ice]

I didn't say that you did.

I misinterpreted your post then :).

See Tunisia for a place it totally worked - they even voted out the Islamists for more moderate centrists.

My knowledge of Tunisia is rather limited I will admit.

In Afghanistan they are having serious arguments about how to tackle corruption - e.g. should ministers be allowed dual nationality

.

I really wouldn't use Afghanistan as a great example here. The West has spent trillions of dollars, thousands of lives, and years occupying the country and it's still not a great example of a functioning democracy. Just look at the last presidential election.

Also - see Japan for a country where democracy was instituted successful, or Germany.

Many of the countries now seen as bastions of liberalism and democracy, such a Scandinavia, went through very rapid democratization in the mid-late 19th Century, going from near-absolute monarchy to universal suffrage in a matter of decades with significantly less civil and educational infrastructure than much of Africa or the Middle East has today.

I see too many differences between these events and what is currently happening. I mean, the most recent one occurred at the end of World War II, eighty years ago. The world was a completely different place back then. I think it would have actually been easier especially when you have the United States occupying a defeated foe who unconditionally surrendered.

I liked your Tunisia example. Any others like this?

That's not to say that it's possible to institute democracy in any given country today but it's totally possible to do in almost any given country within our lifetimes.

Eh, maybe. Once again, see my comments on Afghanistan. Some countries? Sure. I could easily see it happening in Cuba once the Castro brothers die. However, I can name a at least a dozen countries of the top of my head that would be a long shot for a functioning democracy in my life time.

[Husar]

I misinterpreted your post then :).

I have an issue with the idea that people cannot have democracy because they are not ready for it for any reason, that was not just directed at you but also at others. I also take issue with the underlying tone that somehow we in the West would decide whether they can/should have democracy or not.

IIRC quite a few terrorist organizations were founded with the goal of removing western influence from their countries. And I'm not quite sure whether there is a justification for this influence other than "it's in our interest, screw their interests". However, the same argument is also valid for the terrorists then.

Here's a map for reference: http://forusa.org/sites/default/file...ilexpan117.jpg

[Gilrandir]

Purging corruption is pretty much essential to get somewhere and for that you'll need a working tax system, basic meritocracy, a functional education system and more gender equality.

I don't think the latter pertains to cutting down on corruption. I believe in Saudi Arabia or, say, UAE corruption is low, yet gender equality is only nascent.