If Islam is the "Religion of Peace"....

[Fragony]

We can judge them on their actions that are based on what the islam dictates. There is no need to judge muslims who do nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything deeply wrong with their religion.

[Gilrandir]

We can judge them on their actions that are based on what the islam dictates. There is no need to judge muslims who do nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything deeply wrong with their religion.

Leviticus
The Burnt Offering
14 “‘If the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

The Sin Offering
4 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands — 3 “‘If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the Lord a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4 He is to present the bull at the entrance to the tent of meeting before the Lord. He is to lay his hand on its head and slaughter it there before the Lord. 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull’s blood and carry it into the tent of meeting. 6 He is to dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the Lord, in front of the curtain of the sanctuary.

Rules for Priests

16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”

A Blasphemer Put to Death

13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

Is it just me or here we can speak of torturing animals, performing pagan rites with the slaughtered animals, bigotry and call for murder, all of which are MANDATED from the faithful and (which is more terrible) from the priests?

[CrossLOPER]

Is it just me or here we can speak of torturing animals, performing pagan rites with the slaughtered animals, bigotry and call for murder, all of which are MANDATED from the faithful and (which is more terrible) from the priests?

No no no no no that is the OLD Christian God. The new one is cool with invalids and homos so long as they limit their exposure and don't spread the gay.

[Fragony]

Leviticus
The Burnt Offering
14 “‘If the offering to the Lord is a burnt offering of birds, you are to offer a dove or a young pigeon. 15 The priest shall bring it to the altar, wring off the head and burn it on the altar; its blood shall be drained out on the side of the altar. 16 He is to remove the crop and the feathers and throw them down east of the altar where the ashes are. 17 He shall tear it open by the wings, not dividing it completely, and then the priest shall burn it on the wood that is burning on the altar. It is a burnt offering, a food offering, an aroma pleasing to the Lord.

The Sin Offering
4 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘When anyone sins unintentionally and does what is forbidden in any of the Lord’s commands — 3 “‘If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the Lord a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4 He is to present the bull at the entrance to the tent of meeting before the Lord. He is to lay his hand on its head and slaughter it there before the Lord. 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull’s blood and carry it into the tent of meeting. 6 He is to dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the Lord, in front of the curtain of the sanctuary.

Rules for Priests

16 The Lord said to Moses, 17 “Say to Aaron: ‘For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed; 19 no man with a crippled foot or hand, 20 or who is a hunchback or a dwarf, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles. 21 No descendant of Aaron the priest who has any defect is to come near to present the food offerings to the Lord. He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food; 23 yet because of his defect, he must not go near the curtain or approach the altar, and so desecrate my sanctuary. I am the Lord, who makes them holy.’”

A Blasphemer Put to Death

13 Then the Lord said to Moses: 14 “Take the blasphemer outside the camp. All those who heard him are to lay their hands on his head, and the entire assembly is to stone him. 15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the Lord is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.

Is it just me or here we can speak of torturing animals, performing pagan rites with the slaughtered animals, bigotry and call for murder, all of which are MANDATED from the faithful and (which is more terrible) from the priests?

All old testament, an argument only for those who want islam to be the same thing as christianity. But it isn't.

[Kadagar_AV]

Uh....

I refuse to go into a debate whether christianity or islam or the jewish are the worst when it comes to what it says in the scripture.



Let's face it, it ALL has a lot of **** in it. I for one think Christianity has the least ****, but still enough **** for me not to take their faith seriously in a grown up discussion 2015.




My problem is with the Islamic faith, and even MORE so with EVERY Islamic culture I have had the ill fortune to meet or have been forced to live among.

Islam is for me a totally lunatic ideology, and people actually believing in this might as well be hunted for sport if we ever want a society where, say, women are treated as equals and we have a free and open debate climate for political and religious questions.

Note, I do in no way support hunting muslims for sport... I just say that I don't see it as being anything WORSE than having a world where they bring things to the table. Mainly because THEY hunt people, and it's not even for sport these days.

They hunt free thinkers and people bold enough to stand up to them.



We in the west have better weapons and training, so if they really want to turn it into a sport, let's let them. I don't have a problem with throwing the first stone in this case.

[Husar]

We can judge them on their actions that are based on what the islam dictates. There is no need to judge muslims who do nothing wrong, but that doesn't mean there isn't anything deeply wrong with their religion.

But then there is also something deeply wrong with the Jewish religion and the people who take that very seriously and yet you always support them a hundred percent in their everlasting conflict. So why don't you judge the jews based on what the torah dictates? Only the ones who follow it to the letter of course.

The catholic church also succeeded in turning Christianity, which would seem like the least aggressive religion of the three, into a bloodthirsty crusader machine and had all these inquisitions, witch burnings and retty much fraudulent stuff here in Europe. Yes, it was long ago but it shows that religions are often bent and mended to the liking of those who practice them, whether it's literally in the book or not may just help or hinder those plans, but whether it actually shapes those plans is debatable.

Kadagar keeps saying that buddhists are the nicest people and oh so innocent, but there's an entire wiki page that says otherwise:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

And if one doesn't like wiki, there is always anecdotal evidence from elsewhere:
http://time.com/3090990/how-an-extre...d-across-asia/

BBS, or Bodu Bala Sena, otherwise known as Buddhist Power Force, is a Buddhist supremacist group accused of stirring sectarian hatred in Sri Lanka. Led by a monk, Galagoda Aththe Gnanasara Thero, BBS accuses Sri Lanka’s Muslims of threatening the nation’s Buddhist identity, and enjoys support at high levels. Gotabaya Rajapaksa, the President’s brother who also serves as Secretary of Defense, has been an outspoken supporter of BBS in the past.

https://news.vice.com/article/meet-t...s-in-sri-lanka

It was one of the largest and most deadly in recent years, wounding more than 50 and killing four Muslims. It follows a spate of anti-Muslim sentiment welling up somewhat unexpectedly in Sri Lanka and, perhaps most shockingly for Westerners who view them as eternally chubby, cuddly, and peaceful, it was stirred up by and composed of Buddhists, acting on allegedly Buddhist sentiments.

So buddhism is a religion of violence as well now?

http://www.loonwatch.com/2012/07/war...st-violence-i/

And, oh snap, a page that kind of summarizes the entire thread...

But it also has e.g. this on buddhism:

Buddhism’s relative inconspicuousness shields it from the harshest blows of public criticism. Case in point: the Bible and the Quran are well-known and easily accessible to the public. Finding the violent verses in them is just a click away on the internet. Meanwhile, Buddhist scriptural sources are more obscure, at least to the average Westerner. Most people don’t even know what scriptures Buddhists follow, let alone what is contained within them.

As a consequence, many modern-day Buddhists believe that their scriptural sources are in fact devoid of violence, that this is a problem only of the Bible or the Quran. But, Prof. Stephen Jenkins points out that this is just not the case. In fact, “Buddhist kings had conceptual resources [in the religious texts] at their disposal that supported warfare, torture, and harsh punishments.” [2]

Basically there is plenty of justification for killing other people even in the buddhist religion. Most of it is quoted from an expert in the article and I don't want to quote quotes here, so I suggest one reads it.

[Fragony]

I don't read Kad's posts as a case for Budusm but as resentment of islam and islamic culture. I totally agree with that resentment and it confuses me why people try to defend/relativate it, it's a horrible ideoligy. If you care about equal rights for everyone, women, gays, or whatever, you are really knocking on the wrong door if you respect the islam. It's a tragedy really, as most muslims are really nice people, respecting islam isn't exactly doing them a favour.

[CrossLOPER]

I don't read Kad's posts as a case for Budusm but as resentment of islam and islamic culture. I totally agree with that resentment and it confuses me why people try to defend/relativate it, it's a horrible ideoligy. If you care about equal rights for everyone, women, gays, or whatever, you are really knocking on the wrong door if you respect the islam. It's a tragedy really, as most muslims are really nice people, respecting islam isn't exactly doing them a favour.

Its not like ideology changes or melds with the times. Nope. Never happens. Everything is intransigent.

[Fragony]

Its not like ideology changes or melds with the times. Nope. Never happens. Everything is intransigent.

That is why we shouldn't respect the current state of islam. It needs to mocked and ridiculed because frankly it deserves it.

[Husar]

I don't read Kad's posts as a case for Budusm but as resentment of islam and islamic culture.

First off, it's things like the following quotes that bug me:

I guess my question is: When the hell will the west understand that Islam ISN'T just another religion... It's a fanatical sect that should be fought in each and every manner that we possibly can, for the betterment of mankind.

Could, say, Buddhist main texts lead a man to treat his woman badly physically and mentally? I still claim there is something very ****ing rotten in and of Islam itself.

And Kadagar has claimed in other threads that he thinks Islam is completely unique in being a violent religion IIRC. This thread is more low-key but yeah, my point was that this is simply not the case, maybe nowadays it is more extreme but the basic scriptures of many religions we compare here all haven't changed over the course of the last 1000 years or so, right?

As for the buddhism thing:

One of them is together with a muslim guy...

The other one is together with a buddhist guy...

I must honestly say I got bad vibes in the first place, and positive vibes in the latter case.

I think the point about buddhism being more peaceful was made more strongly elsewhere and I guess you're unfortunate that I only looked into it now.

As for muslim resentment of marrying non-muslims, it is there, it is maybe a bit stronger and it makes me sad, but you don't want to know how often my parents told me to find a good christian girl or to forget about a girl because she's not christian. They wouldn't go further, but you can certainly find social pressure there. But even that is inherent to many religions, that they advocate sticking to believers because being exposed to other thoughts might shake the fundamentals of your faith. The attempt by atheists is usually to ask that the religious people to water down their religion, to not take it seriously anymore. But that goes against the fundamentals of their belief, even Jesus said you're either with me or against me, there is no middle ground where you are only a believer when it fits the gay agenda or something like that. That's why people who take the bible seriously still oppose gay rights etc.

So yeah, Islam may have a longer way to go before it has become "secularized" or "watered-down" to please atheists, but that doesn't mean that there is something rotten with it in comparison to other religions, it just means that it has maintained a larger core of people who actually believe in it and take it seriously to this day.

And yeah, you call me a Christian and PVC calls me an atheist. The way I see it I am somewhere in between, for my fundamentalist christian friends that would mean I go to hell and for people opposed to religion that probably means I tolerate religious people too much. All I see is that there is a lot of resentment on both sides and while the religious people call the atheists a corrupting devilish influence that wants to draw people away from god, the atheists make fun of them and call them rotten, demanding that religions can only stay if they drop most of their core beliefs, then wonder why people who actually believe in these core tenets to be the unalterable truth refuse to do so.

So what is this thread about? Relationship advice for a guy whose friends dislike his choice of girlfriend? That's a pretty big title for that...

[Gilrandir]

No no no no no that is the OLD Christian God. The new one is cool with invalids and homos so long as they limit their exposure and don't spread the gay.

God never ages, so he can't be either old or new. Or do you mean God has changed his attitudes since the Old Testament?

That is why we shouldn't respect the current state of islam. It needs to mocked and ridiculed because frankly it deserves it.

If you do, be sure to keep a weapon handy, otherwise muslims may "overreact" at your mocking and then say you deserved it.

So what is this thread about? Relationship advice for a guy whose friends dislike his choice of girlfriend?

Speaking about advice. Suppose Kadagar's niece marries that muslim guy and they have kids, what they will be counted in Fragony's terms - half-guests? Or if an emigrant marries a native, he/she is not a guest anymore? Or something intermediate between a guest and a native? A half-native?

[Fragony]

pfffft bring it,, I'll tear of their jaw and make a nice bouillion. It's the multiculturalal islimphile left that is dangerous, not these few muslims.

[Gilrandir]

pfffft bring it,, I'll tear of their jaw and make a nice bouillion. It's the multiculturalal islimphile left that is dangerous, not these few muslims.

And if they are not that few?
And you didn't qualify Kadagar's once removed grandchildren according to your classification.

[Fragony]

And if they are not that few?
And you didn't qualify Kadagar's once removed grandchildren according to your classification.

If it are not just a few it is because of the multicultural religion, much more dangerouss than a few goatherders that just rolled of the mountain and got lostt, and somehow ended up in a modern society.

My qualification remains by the way, immigrants are guests. Also offspring. You can't become Swedish, you can't become Dutch. You can live here that's all. What more do you need?

[Gilrandir]

My qualification remains by the way, immigrants are guests. Also offspring.

Including offspring of mixed marriages? What about the offspring of the mixed marriages' offspring?

[Husar]

Including offspring of mixed marriages? What about the offspring of the mixed marriages' offspring?

Probably a guest, I found a chart that may or may not explain how it works:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...mberg_laws.jpg

[CrossLOPER]

That is why we shouldn't respect the current state of islam. It needs to mocked and ridiculed because frankly it deserves it.

I know I didn't use the rollseyes smiley, but surely you noted the sarcasm?

God never ages, so he can't be either old or new. Or do you mean God has changed his attitudes since the Old Testament?

I am being haughty.

Including offspring of mixed marriages? What about the offspring of the mixed marriages' offspring?

I already asked him this several times. He does not want to say.

[Kadagar_AV]

Oh Husar... Such an ill thought out post from you.

I will answer in full later when I have time... But seriously?

And Kadagar has claimed in other threads that he thinks Islam is completely unique in being a violent religion IIRC.

Uuuuuh... I have never ever in my life uttered such a claim.

[Fragony]

Including offspring of mixed marriages? What about the offspring of the mixed marriages' offspring?

Too rare to take into consideration, could count as an argument if it is common but it isn't common.

[CrossLOPER]

Oh Husar... Such an ill thought out post from you.

Do you wear a fedora?

[Hax]

Too rare to take into consideration, could count as an argument if it is common but it isn't common.

I've always know that I'm special. <3

Do you wear a fedora?

M'ulticulturalism

[Gilrandir]

Too rare to take into consideration, could count as an argument if it is common but it isn't common.

The USA is a whole country of guests and their offspring.

[Fragony]

Just because it happens doesn't mean it's common, as an argument pretty much ignorable.

was@Hax

[Fragony]

The USA is a whole country of guests and their offspring.

USA ain't Europe, I don't know of any survies but expect immigrants who get a permit consider themselves American first. A survie was done on Europe, who thinks that secular law iand democratic values are only rejected by a minority is truly dillusional. Especially in France and Belgium it's a majority.

http://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/i...-widely-spread

What isn't asked how many are acrually willing to use violence that number is probably a lot lower, and fundamentalist islam isn't necesarily bad, so I am not making a point here by posting this, just asking you to consider.

[Gilrandir]

USA ain't Europe, I don't know of any survies but expect immigrants who get a permit consider themselves American first. A survie was done on Europe, who thinks that secular law iand democratic values are only rejected by a minority is truly dillusional. Especially in France and Belgium it's a majority.

It is not about the USA, Europe and the surveys conducted in either of them. It is about YOUR attitude. Having said A you are expected to say B, i.e. people here would like to hear an orderly and consistent theory on how population of a country might be classified according to their origin. Evidently you don't have one, just an emotional backlash against first-generation emigrants.

[Fragony]

Answer is simple, I don't think islam belongs here. My attitude doesn't matter as it's their own attitude that makes them unwelcome in western Europe. If you reject a secular society and think your religion is more important than your host country, what the fuck are doing here, just go to a desert of choice where you are among those who feel the same way. Simple as that. Reject and get rejected.

About the himself muslim mayor of Rotterdan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivnQGPFnJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0oVQ45blY Short interview

[Ironside]

Uh....

I refuse to go into a debate whether christianity or islam or the jewish are the worst when it comes to what it says in the scripture.

Let's face it, it ALL has a lot of **** in it. I for one think Christianity has the least ****, but still enough **** for me not to take their faith seriously in a grown up discussion 2015.

My problem is with the Islamic faith, and even MORE so with EVERY Islamic culture I have had the ill fortune to meet or have been forced to live among.

Islam is for me a totally lunatic ideology, and people actually believing in this might as well be hunted for sport if we ever want a society where, say, women are treated as equals and we have a free and open debate climate for political and religious questions.

The thing of dragging out Christianity has to do with answering the question if it's possible to create a decent secular state in a Muslim country. The answer is yes, even if you probably aren't feeling that right now. Would purging Islam a make a major cultural difference in the direction you want it? No.
Are there severe issues in the Islamic world right now? Yes. Does some immigrants carry that with them? Yes.

As a fellow Swede, do agree that there's issues in the Swedish society today?

Clearly there's something rotten with Sweden. It's not like every other country, but ruled by fanatical feminazis and should be fought in each and every manner that we possibly can, for the betterment of mankind. There's something deeply wrong with this country.

Sweden is a totally lunatic country, and people actually believing in this might as well be hunted for sport if we ever want a society where, say, women are treated as the different gender that they obviously are, and we have a free and open society where godless atheists without morals doesn't rule.

Of course, I mean it's really enough to wipe out Sweden from the map and that all Swedes denounce Sweden and its wicked ways, no need to kill them and I would really prefer it this way. Civilized as I am.

Did reading that make you feel more or less proud to be a Swede? If someone really wants you to change your attitude towards Sweden, should they talk and write like that? In particular since strong feelings in one place tends to leak through the mask that you wear in another place.

[Husar]

Answer is simple, I don't think islam belongs here. My attitude doesn't matter as it's their own attitude that makes them unwelcome in western Europe. If you reject a secular society and think your religion is more important than your host country, what the fuck are doing here, just go to a desert of choice where you are among those who feel the same way. Simple as that. Reject and get rejected.

About the himself muslim mayor of Rotterdan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yivnQGPFnJY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0oVQ45blY Short interview

I agree, to a degree, but they do apparently stay anyway, nothing we can do. Apparently they have a mind of their own, crazy stuff.

And that guy in the first video seems funny, apparently something weird happened to his glasses that he didn't bother to fix but he still advertises media appearance tutoring in the description of the video.

[Fragony]

Of course they are going to stay and that's fine with me. But nobody is forcing them to stay they can leave at any time they want if they want to, staying here is a choice , don't take a dumb on my lawn and expect me to like it. We aren't asking all that much from them imho, and that's a favour I would like to have returned. If you want to live in a society of your own you have no claim on the benefits of living in a western society as you distanciate yourself from it. Quid pro quo. Can't have the benefits of society and reject our society it at the same time. If I come to your house and I don't like what you did with the place I don't ask you to refurnish it because I don't like it.

[Husar]

Of course they are going to stay and that's fine with me. But nobody is forcing them to stay they can leave at any time they want if they want to, staying here is a choice , don't take a dumb on my lawn and expect me to like it. We aren't asking all that much from them imho, and that's a favour I would like to have returned. If you want to live in a society of your own you have no claim on the benefits of living in a western society as you distanciate yourself from it. Quid pro quo. Can't have the benefits of society and reject our society it at the same time. If I come to your house and I don't like what you did with the place I don't ask you to refurnish it because I don't like it.

Yeah, I just don't get why you say it's fine with you that they stay and then explain that they have no claim on the benefit of staying here.