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Thread: POTUS Election thread

  1. #1441
    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    The Battle for America continues!!!

    Jill Stein is demanding recounts in battleground states, and it looks like she will acquire the money to do so.
    Is this "situation normal" or is it "not accepting election results" ?
    I vote "situation normal"; she has the right and the means to ask for a recount => all systems working
    She's just fund-raising. Pretending to fight the good fight for Clinton will bring in lots of fundraising dollars from the Clinton supporters who are still in denial over the election results.

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post

    California is revolting!
    I agree. California is revolting.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
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  2. #1442
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    ...California is revolting!
    This is a mantra, no?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  3. #1443

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval
    Because California will never break from the United States.
    *San Andreas fault joke*
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


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  4. #1444
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Because California will never break from the United States.
    Never is too a long time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  5. #1445
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    So this is fun.... Trump may be violating the lease for his new DC hotel by being elected president.

    TL;DR, the landlord for his new hotel is, in fact, the federal government. As such, the lease states that no elected official can be party to the lease.

    Seeing as how this is going to be one of Trump's main avenues for graft, I'm sure his attorneys will find a way around this. But I hope he at least has to squirm a bit.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-01-2016 at 19:25.
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  6. #1446

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Trump will be the next teflon president.


  7. #1447
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    You mean to say that in this society, the rich and powerful can get away with whatever they like, while the prisons are bulging with poor petty criminals? I'm shocked!
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    You mean to say that in this society, the rich and powerful can get away with whatever they like, while the prisons are bulging with poor petty criminals? I'm shocked!
    Seems to be one of the few things both parties agree on- their elites are above the law.
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  9. #1449
    Ja mata, TosaInu Forum Administrator edyzmedieval's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    James Mattis is the pick for Defence Secretary - something that has been welcomed by both sides of the camp, both Democrats and Republicans.
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  10. #1450
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    James Mattis is the pick for Defence Secretary - something that has been welcomed by both sides of the camp, both Democrats and Republicans.
    MSNBC already found a few who will vote no, because he A) is inside the 7 year gap between military and civilian service, or B) Obama told him to strike his flag so he is not their cup of tea, or C) both.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  11. #1451
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Seems to be one of the few things both parties agree on- their elites are above the law.
    The question is whether you identify your interests as aligning with that elite, or if you think that elite would render you down for tallow if it benefitted then and they could get away with it.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  12. #1452
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by a completely inoffensive name View Post
    Trump will be the next teflon president.
    The "Teflon" is redundant.

    Perhaps Obama will be seen as the only president ever with some personal integrity.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  13. #1453
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    The question is whether you identify your interests as aligning with that elite, or if you think that elite would render you down for tallow if it benefitted then and they could get away with it.
    Wrong doesn't become right and corrupt doesn't become honourable just because you agree with their ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Perhaps Obama will be seen as the only president ever with some personal integrity.
    Obama had his share of scandals too.... I'll name a few:

    Operation Fast and Furious
    Benghazi
    IRS targeting of conservative organizations
    DOJ surveiling reporters
    Obama paying Iran ransom for hostages
    The Secret Service scandals

    I'm sure I could find more... but that's a good start.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-02-2016 at 22:18.
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  14. #1454

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edyzmedieval View Post
    Revolting on paper only. Because California will never break from the United States. Just a simple thought.
    Beware! Many people said that Trump would never be president......

    And I find it interesting that Hillary is leading in every internet forum poll that I look at. Most of the Americans I know of are either Trump supporters or didn't pay attention to his speeches. Very few were against him. It's probably because of the region that I live in.
    Last edited by Shaka_Khan; 12-02-2016 at 23:41.
    Wooooo!!!

  15. #1455
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    Obama had his share of scandals too.... I'll name a few:
    Obama paying Iran ransom for hostages
    I never understood why this stood in common perception.

    It's false - and it's a legal dispute that dates back to 1979 - the Iran money was the money of Iran to begin with, the United States simply returned it. The US held money that was Iran's own, it was returned to the rightful owner.

    The Shah of Iran paid 400 million US Dollars for military equipment which was never delivered. The money was returned by the USA.
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  16. #1456
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Seems like it was unclear or maybe even interpreted/intended differently on both sides of the exchange:

    http://fortune.com/2016/08/05/money-america-iran/

    The “sweetener” view may have some validity. Sick concedes that the deal did “let the Iranian hardliners say they got something in the nuclear deal. Iran was happy to get the cash back. Perhaps that made it easier for them to give up the prisoners, I don’t know.” He doesn’t believe the three teams of negotiators were working together. “The negotiations for the hostages were totally separate channels, and handled by the Swiss,” he says.
    I'm curious what you mean by "The Secret Service Scandals" @Xiahou? That he didn't catch Snowden or that Snowden hd something to expose in the first place? Of course for me the only scandal there is that your government is spying on my private communication, but I blame the one who started it (Bush) more than the one who "merely" maintained it. The drone killings are in the same league in that regard.


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  17. #1457
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    ..I'm curious what you mean by "The Secret Service Scandals" @Xiahou? That he didn't catch Snowden or that Snowden hd something to expose in the first place? Of course for me the only scandal there is that your government is spying on my private communication, but I blame the one who started it (Bush) more than the one who "merely" maintained it. The drone killings are in the same league in that regard.
    Secret Service handles anti-counterfeiting and presidential protection, not those other things you mentioned. They got dinged repeatedly over the course of a year or so during the Obama administration for letting people penetrate the perimeter while carrying weapons, letting people in to White House events without checking ID/insuring they were on the guest lists, and in at least one case for taking a group of whores up to the hotel to party while on a Pre-presidential visit security prep trip.

    The scandals occurred on BHO's watch, but it struck me more along the lines of a bureaucracy gone complacent and sloppy ethics.

    Snowden was with No Such Agency, and the programs he objected to were begun under the Patriot Act (Bush 43) but very much continued under BHO.

    The drone strikes were mostly conducted by the CIA, who operated armed drones years before the military used them for more than imaging/painting targets. Drone strikes were begun under Bush, but (in part due to the maturation of the technology and in part by executive decision) BHO's administration oversaw far more drone strikes than did the Bush administration.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  18. #1458
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Secret Service handles anti-counterfeiting and presidential protection, not those other things you mentioned. They got dinged repeatedly over the course of a year or so during the Obama administration for letting people penetrate the perimeter while carrying weapons, letting people in to White House events without checking ID/insuring they were on the guest lists, and in at least one case for taking a group of whores up to the hotel to party while on a Pre-presidential visit security prep trip.

    The scandals occurred on BHO's watch, but it struck me more along the lines of a bureaucracy gone complacent and sloppy ethics.

    Snowden was with No Such Agency, and the programs he objected to were begun under the Patriot Act (Bush 43) but very much continued under BHO.

    The drone strikes were mostly conducted by the CIA, who operated armed drones years before the military used them for more than imaging/painting targets. Drone strikes were begun under Bush, but (in part due to the maturation of the technology and in part by executive decision) BHO's administration oversaw far more drone strikes than did the Bush administration.
    Yes, you're right, I hastily confused Secret Service with Secret Agencies.
    Considering how many TV series involving all of them in some capacity I watch, that is actually inexcusable.

    I agree with you on the Secret Service scandals and I would say there are a few more that Xiahou listed which are not micromanaged by the President most likely. One could blame him for choosing the people responsible, but even that can go a bit far considering that hiring the wrong people for a job happens to a lot of people all the time if you think about it.

    The one "good" thing about Obama and drone strikes is that IIRC under his administration the average amount of civilian casualties per strike was heavily reduced. Of course ideally there should be none, but if that's not a choice, reducing them is the least one can do I guess.


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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I agree with you on the Secret Service scandals and I would say there are a few more that Xiahou listed which are not micromanaged by the President most likely. One could blame him for choosing the people responsible, but even that can go a bit far considering that hiring the wrong people for a job happens to a lot of people all the time if you think about it.
    I think that's fair, it's not as though Obama ordered them to sleep with prostitutes. At the same time, the buck stops there and all that- I don't think Bush would've gotten a complete pass for repeated misbehavior of his security detail, and Obama shouldn't either.

    Oh, that reminds me of another scandal- the Veterans Affairs hospitals. Again, Obama wasn't directly responsible for their negligence- but he does bear a share of responsibility for his inability to clean it up during his 8 years in office.
    Last edited by Xiahou; 12-03-2016 at 03:29.
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    ...The one "good" thing about Obama and drone strikes is that IIRC under his administration the average amount of civilian casualties per strike was heavily reduced. Of course ideally there should be none, but if that's not a choice, reducing them is the least one can do I guess.
    As much newer tech as anything. The MEDIA may report all of them as Hellfires, but that is far from the only one in use and the newer stuff is far more discriminating and easier to target. Not yet a sniper rifle in the sky, but heading that direction.

    The Hellfire was kludged onto the early CIA predators to give them a punch, but it weighs about 100 pounds traditional measure and was designed to target tanks and bunkers with a big boom and who cares about collateral damage. Obviously, even the newer Hellfires have been upgraded.

    And, YES, BHO did have his people pay more attention to some of the shoot/no shoot conditions -- though you could judge that badly from an effectiveness perspective.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  21. #1461
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    I think that's fair, it's not as though Obama ordered them to sleep with prostitutes. At the same time, the buck stops there and all that- I don't think Bush would've gotten a complete pass for repeated misbehavior of his security detail, and Obama shouldn't either.

    Oh, that reminds me of another scandal- the Veterans Affairs hospitals. Again, Obama wasn't directly responsible for their negligence- but he does bear a share of responsibility for his inability to clean it up during his 8 years in office.
    The VA hospitals have been an ongoing scandal since at least the Tet offensive days....LOTS of blame to go around there.

    I do agree with you, however, that Bush-43 could have announced that "Wednesday" was originally named in honor of Odin All-father.....and STILL got flack for it from at least 15% of the media along with half or more of them arguing he was being culturally insensitive to the descendants of those Norse raiders of old.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  22. #1462
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    So this is fun.... Trump may be violating the lease for his new DC hotel by being elected president.

    TL;DR, the landlord for his new hotel is, in fact, the federal government. As such, the lease states that no elected official can be party to the lease.

    Seeing as how this is going to be one of Trump's main avenues for graft, I'm sure his attorneys will find a way around this. But I hope he at least has to squirm a bit.
    Trump is apparently going to set aside all his businesses whilst President, so don't worry he won't be breaking the law but the money will be there for him when he's done (assuming his kids let him have it).

    So how about Trump and China, eh?

    If he actually enacts a "Two China" policy I'm going to have to take my hat off to him and admit I agree with it, in principle at the very least.
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  23. #1463
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Trump is apparently going to set aside all his businesses whilst President
    Is that why he asked Erdogan for a favour for a Turkish business friend of his over the phone?
    Or why his daughter used that picture from the after-election press conference to promote her business?


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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Trump is apparently going to set aside all his businesses whilst President, so don't worry he won't be breaking the law but the money will be there for him when he's done (assuming his kids let him have it).
    He says he will- but it remains to be seen. Even if he does formally yield control of his business interests- he's yielding them to his children. The end result would be little different than if he maintained control.

    If he actually enacts a "Two China" policy I'm going to have to take my hat off to him and admit I agree with it, in principle at the very least.
    So, while I have no doubt he'll be massively corrupt, I do still hope that Trump can do some good for the country while he's in office. He hasn't even been sworn in yet, so I can still hope.
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou View Post
    He says he will- but it remains to be seen. Even if he does formally yield control of his business interests- he's yielding them to his children. The end result would be little different than if he maintained control.

    So, while I have no doubt he'll be massively corrupt, I do still hope that Trump can do some good for the country while he's in office. He hasn't even been sworn in yet, so I can still hope.
    X-man:

    As to the financials, we are in uncharted territory here. Washington and Jefferson were men of wealth for their era, but communications of the era and the way finances were structured required that they provide written instructions to someone to manage their property for them and NOT maintain anything more than a distant oversight. Our modern rich politicos were all, functionally, professional politicians before taking the Presidency, so they had the blind-trust or whatever systems ironed out completely in advance. Not so "The Donald." And our other "First political job is the Presidency" types were all generals (Grant, DDE) -- who never have any heavy money. This is uncharted territory -- for good or for ill.

    As to the corruption, it is impossible to say. I don't think Trump enough of a putz to make national decisions based on moving Trump industries from 8 to 12 billion in value, but he has ALWAYS been operating among the rich and powerful corporation circles and he probably trusts their judgement in a way that few populist politicians ever have. He is certainly demonstrating a willingness to employ 'heavy money' types over 'heavy academic' types thus far. His personal argument during that campaign, that he was effectively too rich to be bribable, may or may not be a good basis for minimizing corruption.

    On the other hand, it is not as though other politicians were not worse. Remember, it was that populist Jackson (after winning the popular vote twice and finally getting elected on the second try) who ramped up the patronage thing and supposedly remarked "If there is any federal job that can't be filled by a Democrat, I want the JOB abolished," and other political professionals like Harding (Teapot dome etc.) and Nixon [Enemies list, Watergate, etc.) with major corruption concerns. Heck, even Carter had Bert Lance forced to resign for corruption reasons, and whatever I think of his presidency or judgment, Carter's personal ethics were and are above reproach.

    But Taylor, Eisenhower, and Grant (all, like Trump, beginning their political careers at the Presidential level) each had problems with subordinates nuzzling at the trough. In each case a general found that you could not command a government and keep a government under discipline anywhere close to what you could do with an army. There are, of course, worries that a CEO -- used to saying do this and having people jump through hoops to do that -- will have the same kind of trouble. I hope not, but.....
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  26. #1466

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    I doubt (hope) Trump will be no more corrupt than any other politician.
    With tax breaks up-chain and I believe "enhanced" budgets for defence and security, the deficit will balloon.
    Like under Regan and Bush, that will all be "ok" because Republicans are doing it.
    So, more jails to accommodate an renewal of the war on drugs; more gadgets for the military (useful and not)
    Will the next civil war be over cannabis? http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...rijuana-214501
    Ja-mata TosaInu

  27. #1467
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Quote Originally Posted by HopAlongBunny View Post
    I doubt (hope) Trump will be no more corrupt than any other politician.
    With tax breaks up-chain and I believe "enhanced" budgets for defence and security, the deficit will balloon.
    Like under Regan and Bush, that will all be "ok" because Republicans are doing it.
    So, more jails to accommodate an renewal of the war on drugs; more gadgets for the military (useful and not)
    Will the next civil war be over cannabis? http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...rijuana-214501
    I don't think he is gonna be quite so manic about the drug war. He's paying it lip service only so far. I hope so, at least. We lost that one long since and STILL cannot find someone from whom to ask for terms.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

    "The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken

  28. #1468
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/07/us...rump.html?_r=0

    WASHINGTON — President-elect Donald J. Trump has selected Scott Pruitt, the Oklahoma attorney general and a close ally of the fossil fuel industry, to run the Environmental Protection Agency, a transition official said, signaling Mr. Trump’s determination to dismantle President Obama’s efforts to counter climate change.
    More excellent choices by the president-elect.


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  29. #1469

    Default Re: POTUS thread

    Some musing about recursion of negative assessments from the West to the third world:

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opi...123725710.html

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    Ja-mata TosaInu

  30. #1470
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: POTUS thread

    The hysteria train keeps on rolling; presented to you by the qatari propaganda arm.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 12-11-2016 at 00:43.
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    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

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