After years of pain and humiliation Greece may exit Euro AND EU... PVC says...

[a completely inoffensive name]

It's only a matter of time for Greece to leave at this point.

[Gilrandir]

After several personal experiences where I witnessed for myself the two parallel dimensions, namely the "real" reality and the reality manufactured by the press, yes, I'm ready to put more weight on some random guy's opinion on the facts than on what the mass-media says.

To rely on the opinion of one person to make conclusions about the life in a country?What if this random guy is a tycoon, or an extremist, or a politician pursuing his agenda, or a europhile, or a misogynist, or (God forbid) Putin? Would it make the picture he paints lop-sided? The selection must be more representative to make more or less accurate conlusions.

[rory_20_uk]

They cooked the books to get in. They continued to lie about their finances. The locals' favourite sport is tax evasion.

Unless the Germans continue to like paying for their cute pets by the Agean this can't work as getting the Greeks to act like Germans isn't realistic.

[Fragony]

It's only a matter of time for Greece to leave at this point.

Not yet, the baillout for the banks that help for Greece really is isn't over yet. All the money flows back and the Greeks are left with less than nothing. Pure plunder.

[Brenus]

"They cooked the books to get in. They continued to lie about their finances. The locals' favourite sport is tax evasion." Like in UK you mean?

"Unless the Germans continue to like paying for their cute pets by the Agean this can't work as getting the Greeks to act like Germans isn't realistic." I hope so.

[rory_20_uk]

UK budgets often get signed off by an independent audit office. I don't see that happening in Greece or the EU. Yes there is almost certainly tax evasion in all countries. It is extremely bad in Greece.

[Gilrandir]

Yes there is almost certainly tax evasion in all countries. It is extremely bad in Greece.

Any facts or just a supposition?

[wooly_mammoth]

I thought that the fact that greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day.

[Gilrandir]

I thought that the fact that greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day.

Learned it from a random guy at a bus station?

[Brenus]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

[Husar]

http://www.economist.com/news/europe...-sport-no-more

GREEK officials used to shrug off tax evasion as “a national sport”.

[Kadagar_AV]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

I have talked with a few (3) greeks about it... And they all say tax evasion is MASSIVE, and that people more or less expect money for free from the state. Oh, and also that as soon as they entered EU and the monetary union people just started to borrow money like crasy. Not for any real use, but for luxury articles.

[Pannonian]

"I thought that the fact that Greeks don't pay their taxes was as common sense as the sky being blue in a clear day." As far as I know, the Greeks pay their taxes like in UK, when they are paid, every month (week in my case as I am temp). So, the only one who don't pay taxes in Greece (and UK) are the "auto-entrepreneur", another word for slave, or the riches.
And, I was explained that if you tax the Riches, they go, so it is counter-productive as they are the jobs creators etc etc... Apparently Greece should imported workers as none of them pay taxes, according to the European Media...

Why do you live in the UK when you clearly hate it and the people here?

[Brenus]

"Why do you live in the UK when you clearly hate it and the people here?" If I clearly, do you mind to elaborate or to give some evidence where I show this hate?
And to answer your question I married an English...

And because I do, I expect others to do it as well:
I never deny that the Greeks (meaning the ones who can, as I said, their taxes are included in their salaries) tax evaded. My point is, one they are not alone (See D. Cameron in UK and "morally wrong" thingy), or Depardieu fleeing to Russia in order not to pay tax in France, two, I was told if you tax the riches they go somewhere else (they love their countries just enough to leave if they have to pay for hospitals, roads and schools) so you loose the elite of the Creme de la Creme, so you loose jobs as they are allegedly the jobs creators, reason why Greece should have full employment as they don't pay taxes so they should at least invest in diamonds, yacht and all these luxury shops...
I can't dodge taxes. Bankers could and did, can and do. I use Bankers as generic term.

So why Greece is not in full employment? After at least 7 years of remedies inflicted by IMF and Troika, all imposing solutions? So they are obviously not working. Why these vultures carry on to impose tax on pensions when Germany and Luxembourg (by the way Juncker is one who benefit of tax evasion) refuse to allow the Greeks to chase the Greek tax dodgers in their respective banks?

The bail out of Greece was not meant to save Greece but to save German and French banks. If Greece default, the European Mechanism will have to gear up and France and Germany will have to pay the Greek debt.

The propaganda against the Greeks was near racism: we could hear things like in the same time they are lazy and have two jobs, (civil servants being taxi was the frequent line). I don't know for you, but if I have a swimming pool and money for free, and a Swiss bank account (or in Luxembourg), I will not, repeat, not, going to drive a taxi from 4 in the afternoon to late in the night. And the legend of the pension at 50, of course...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I've known quite a few Greeks - all educated to be sure, but they all paid taxes. The impression I got was that your average Greek pays his taxes but the wealthy are dodgers. Essentially Greece has a larger version of the problem every country with professional accountants has.

[Crandar]

I've known quite a few Greeks - all educated to be sure, but they all paid taxes. The impression I got was that your average Greek pays his taxes but the wealthy are dodgers. Essentially Greece has a larger version of the problem every country with professional accountants has.

Paying the taxes depends on your profession.
The greatest tax-avoiders are the millionaires, who are too powerful to be annoyed with such trivial things, a great part of the small businessmen, to whom receipt is an unkown concept, and the vast majority of the free professionals, like doctors or electricians, who greet you by presenting you two options:
Paying the original price or paying the three quarters of the price, but without any receipt.

[drone]

My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Paying the taxes depends on your profession.
The greatest tax-avoiders are the millionaires, who are too powerful to be annoyed with such trivial things, a great part of the small businessmen, to whom receipt is an unkown concept, and the vast majority of the free professionals, like doctors or electricians, who greet you by presenting you two options:
Paying the original price or paying the three quarters of the price, but without any receipt.

So, essentially, the Western European prejudice about Greeks not paying taxes is correct?

That's disappointing.

I assume the employees of small businesses are paid in cash and therefore also don't pay taxes?

That would mean that the only people who do pay their taxes would be the corporations and those people paid directly by the state, like teachers.

[Gilrandir]

http://www.economist.com/news/europe...-sport-no-more

No, no, no!!! No lying media, please! Only random guys' opinions! Not even sure if ladies' evidence is accepted.

My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.

I don't know about Greece, but it is perfectly true in Gipsy communities in Moldova.
http://picturetank.com/___/series/60...a_(44306).html
See the comment under the first picture to the right.

[Papewaio]

I know Taiwan had a novel (not sure if original) solution to getting taxes via making sure receipts were issued.

Each receipt at a store would have a unique number on it.

A unique lottery number for a state run monthly lottery.

I win a few minor prizes on it... Enough for coffee or a meal (1 coffee = entree, main meal and a tea).

[Crandar]

So, essentially, the Western European prejudice about Greeks not paying taxes is correct?

That's disappointing.

I assume the employees of small businesses are paid in cash and therefore also don't pay taxes?

That would mean that the only people who do pay their taxes would be the corporations and those people paid directly by the state, like teachers.

Yes, the prejudice is basically correct, although the populists' rhetoric about that concerning the vast majority of Greeks is an exagerration.

Regarding the employees, most of them are paid by checks, that's necessary, according to the state's laws and how Greek economy used to operate, but with the increased immigration and unemployment, many young men are obliged to join the black market:
Officially unemployed, but in reality, working for a tiny salary without any insurance. That is a common practice in the Aegean islands and that's why I discourage everybody from spending his vacations there.

[Furunculus]

Any facts or just a supposition?

https://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

Select: "European Union and Western Europe"

[Kadagar_AV]

**** just hit the fan...

Will be an interesting time for the EU ahead...

[Brenus]

Yeah, the Greeks will decide by REFERENDUM... What? They will ask the Greeks citizens their opinion? Democracy in an EU member? The Commission will be p**** off!!!

[Kadagar_AV]

Yeah, the Greeks will decide by REFERENDUM... What? They will ask the Greeks citizens their opinion? Democracy in an EU member? The Commission will be p**** off!!!

There is a little more to it than that...

Greece has basically said "we will..." and "later we shall" and generally postponed the whole thing indefinitely... When placed against the wall, in our out, THEN they went like "Uuuuuuh, we need more time... This time for a referendum... So, six more months, a year is ok eh?"


No wonder the rest of Europe is pissed at them. They don't act in a honest way. Heck, they haven't since they joined the EU.



Kick greece to the wolves is what I say. Good riddance.

[Brenus]

"There is a little more to it than that..." Yes there is. Greece (former government(s) of) was help by the crook actually at the Head of the European Central Bank to cook the book in order to be part of European Union. The actual President of the European Union was the head of a State that actively encourage tax evasion as it profits from it.
European Union bailed out Greece few time in order to save their banking system, and for Greece to be able to pay all the military equipment Greece bought to Germany, including two sub-marines that don't really work.
For now more than 5 years, Greece is under a program of looting, sorry, austerity measures, that failed to create one job, put hundred of thousand in misery, but makes a lot of money for bankers and others vultures.
Undeterred by the total failure of their plan(s), the EU & IMF want to carry on in stockpiling debt on Greece.
The actual government was elected on a platform to stop this madness. The EU & IMF decide to go for the jugular, to make an example. Well, the actual Greek Government out-maneuver them.
Come on, let's Lagarde (actually the worst minister of finances France ever produce) and Joncker go to explain to the Greeks the benefit on long term of increasing the price of food and medicament and to decrease the taxes for the Riches.
You know, the Greeks are educated people and the plan is good, they will made sacrifices, as they did in the past.
The problem of course is all evidence prove the plan wrong: the Debt did increase, unemployment went up to the sky, no future for the youth, only air is left as everything else should be privatised (sold to the same who plunder the country).
So perhaps time to really tackle the problem with a realistic plan for the Greek population and Europe.

"Kick greece to the wolves is what I say": The funny thing is you can't. See, that the trouble when you follow only media's "experts". There is no mechanism to expel a country, as they are allegedly all equal. The same for Euro. So, that will be fun when Europe will want something, like extension on Russian's sanctions.
I foresee interesting time.

[InsaneApache]

Learned it from a random guy at a bus station?

My dad lived in Greece for ten years and it's endemic. It is indeed the national sport.

[InsaneApache]

My favorite anecdotal Greek tax-evasion story came from Brits, they said all the new buildings had "unfinished" top floors so the owners wouldn't have to pay property taxes, which were only collected upon completion. No idea if true or not.

I can assure you that this is indeed the case. All over Corfu you see this. I wondered why and asked my dad and that's what he told me, supported by Greeks themselves who actually sniggered . To them paying tax is an option. One they rarely take up.

[Furunculus]

I can assure you that this is indeed the case. All over Corfu you see this. I wondered why and asked my dad and that's what he told me, supported by Greeks themselves who actually sniggered . To them paying tax is an option. One they rarely take up.

i have seen the same in rhodes, and heard the same explanation from the locals.

you've never seen so many nearly attractive houses with reinforcing rods sticking out the top of the flat concrete roofs.

[Fragony]

There is a little more to it than that...

Greece has basically said "we will..." and "later we shall" and generally postponed the whole thing indefinitely... When placed against the wall, in our out, THEN they went like "Uuuuuuh, we need more time... This time for a referendum... So, six more months, a year is ok eh?"


No wonder the rest of Europe is pissed at them. They don't act in a honest way. Heck, they haven't since they joined the EU.



Kick greece to the wolves is what I say. Good riddance.

Who are the wolves really. Dutch, German and French banks are getting a baillout at the expense of everybody