Another terrible race motivated attack.

[Ironside]

2. I think I was misconstrued. The civil war was the death throes of a way of life. Slavery was the center piece of that life, as Ironside pointed out with his google fu. However, in April 1865, it wasn't just that slavery that was destroyed. Post WWII that destruction was captured in academia for the first time and that is when you begin to see the use of the battle flag again. The modern use of the battle flag comes out of that lost cuasism of post war America. Using civil war era quotes to explain why the battle flag came back into prominence is not the way to go. The modern use of the battle flag is tied to the post war era and integration more than it is Antietam.

The major issue is that the confederate flag got popular post WWII was because it was used as a symbol of North oppression of forcing the proud South to desegregate. In 1948 it got a symbol for the Dixiecrats, the Democrats that quit their party, because the Democrats adapted civil rights to blacks as an agenda.

Basically, the expression of pride of the South and state rights was wanting to keep segregation alive and kicking. There were no real separation on the issue.

To be fair, the Confederate had an older tradition of being used as a simple war flag. I'll probably would be needing more than google fu to see if it was a cool old flag or if it was a symbol to cleanse "the dagger in the back of the South".

The idea you can change a few street names and some how "denazify" the feeling for a man like Robert E Lee makes me fear for this forums critical thinking skills. It is akin to the people flying the battle telling a black guy to get over slavery and segregation. You're just on the otherside.

That would not be enough yeah. But dropping the support on the official state level would still be a marker.

Let me put it this way. How would you feel if the officially supported symbol for the state pride you have lived for generations are the same symbol used by people (with significant public support) wanting to have you treated as a lesser being? And that twice?

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.

Nah, it's racism and class in a nasty mixture. Then you get the counter-cultural development among the black as a response to that are quite unhealthy and also creates barriers. But to stop the neighbouring alien to bleed acid all over you, you have to stop stabbing him.

[Beskar]

Panzer is right. The standard liberal defense of high crime rates is quite frankly wrong and the fact it keeps getting parrotted is just ignorance. I think there are other reasons for the disparity and don't share his kind of social nihilism but to sit here and howl about how it's all about class is kind of uniquely European.

Actually, it is rather accurate. Though 'blacks' enjoy far less opportunities than the typical 'white' person, so there is some disparity and difference which complicates the matter further, but as a general theme, it is indeed the poverty and lack of opportunity which breeds those environments, and placing different 'races' into those same environments causes the same effect. In short, the liberal 'argument' is socioeconomical ranging in a wide breath of factors which result in the disparity.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin" is not only not right, it is not even wrong

[a completely inoffensive name]

First of all, the point I am making is one I am extrapolating from the views I have read and seen on TV. I wanted to open this thread with that specific point of view to prevent the same old talking points from arising. Second, the point about Denazification is not to eradicate the feelings towards Robert E Lee as a person but to dismantle the post war usage of him and his battle flag as a symbol of segregation and oppression. His name is used no longer as a reminder of brave soldiers doing their duty or as respect for a brilliant general, but as a symbol of the ideological fight to keep white supremacists. Third, the actual policy involves more than just renaming streets but a systematic government audit. And really, this is where I got confused at the responses about suppressing culture because it is about cleaning out the justice system, not about homogenizing the south.

[Husar]

There are actually people who say the flag is a symbol of slavery/segregation for the most part:

http://theweek.com/articles/562004/s...nfederate-flag

Opposition to civil rights legislation, to integration, to miscegenation, to social equality for black people — these are the major plot points that make up the flag's recent history. Not Vietnam. Not opposition to Northern culture or values. Not tourism. Not ObamaCare. Not anything else.

[Papewaio]

Everybody who tried such a "radical reorganisation" is remembered a monster because everybody resisted and they had to kill thousands to cow the rest.

I think there are quite a few examples of reorganization that overall reduced friction within a nation. Look at the UK with both the Magna Carta and its derivatives, and the formation of the Church of England.

We remember the more violent changes that have occurred as that is often how we measure history. But there has been a lot of changes that have occurred over the last hundred years that haven't required killing off the old school followers.

In Australia we managed to include aboriginals as people in 1967 by referendum. We didn't then need to mass murder the opponents to the referendum to change things.

Most law is small layers of change and are often quite boring compared with the broad brush strokes of history.

For instance after seeing the impact of the American Civil War the Australian Consitution had it written in that secession is not an option to cut off any momentum. Note that Australia Federated in 1901 and inbetween the Civil War and that time we had a lot of Americans come in for the gold rush.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I never knew that about Australia, interesting fact.

[Montmorency]

You think wanting to eliminate all cultures and form One World Government isn't a totalitarian idea?

Nah, totalitarianism is the lashing-out of a weak and unstable autocracy. Once a mechanism is in place, salutary neglect comes into force.

All our beliefs are a product of the culture we are raised in, modified by our personality and life experience. So if you want to "eliminate all cultures" that belief is a product of your cultural context - it's actually a not uncommon product of the culture of American Exceptionalism, which is itself the last gasp of the 19th Century "white Man's Burden".

Here's a hint: Here on the Org we have our own culture. It was created by the Big Bang.

Let me give you an example -

Murder - we often say that all societies condemn murder, but this is in fact not true. One example of this is the Thugee (from whence Thug), an Indian sub-culture/cult which worshipped Kali and went about murdering travellers.

As far as I know, Thugees did not tolerate the murder of fellow Thugees - making them essentially indistinguishable from all the rest.

[Papewaio]

Confederate flag should be allowed to be used by Joe Citizen. With all the social consequences that entails.

For a government institution or employee should not show allegiance to it anymore then the WWI German Flag, WWII Japanese Flag, North Korean flag, Vietnamese flag or the Iraq one.

It should not be honored by local, state or federal. As a dual citizen I understand multiple allegences. Country, state, sports team (All Blacks btw). However one should not show allegences to enemies of your country. And a failed rebellion is an enemy that should not be revered by government insitutions. Particularly if most of the uses of the flag is still used in anti-federal ideas and also by persons in promoting an unconstitutional creed (All men not created equal).

[Fragony]

Nice and balanced. Isn't it also a symbol of a motorgang, the local bikers-pub here is full of confederate-flags. Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.

[Husar]

Nice and balanced. Isn't it also a symbol of a motorgang, the local bikers-pub here is full of confederate-flags. Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.

I would assume they use it as a symbol of rebellion against authority/the government as they are often also criminals. It is also quite well known that a lot of these gangs are involved in modern slavery themselves, so their use of the flag does not exactly make it seem more harmless. You might think the smaller clubs are not as criminal as the bigger ones but quite a few of them seem to be allied with the bigger ones of sorts. I came across a local club here I'd never heard of before but they supported the Banditos or so all over their Facebook page...

[Fragony]

Probably right about the rebel-part. I don't know how criminal these gangs are, I don't think the police knows either. As far as I know they don't cause a lot of trouble in plain sight at least. But it's kinda 'rock', people who have nothing to do with this still have these flags, they are not a rare sight in rock-bars.

[Gilrandir]

In Australia we managed to include aboriginals as people in 1967 by referendum. We didn't then need to mass murder the opponents to the referendum to change things.

That's because no Robert E. Lee was in evidence among the aboriginals.

Motorgangs are 'cool', flag can mean anything. In this case big bikes and big beards.

You forgot the big bellies.

[Kadagar_AV]

Actually, it is rather accurate. Though 'blacks' enjoy far less opportunities than the typical 'white' person, so there is some disparity and difference which complicates the matter further

They do? Last I checked blacks get into good schools and universities not because they deserve it compared to the other applicants, but because they are black.

There is a load of well meaning projects and programs to help blacks, as well.

To be honest, at least here in Sweden and reportedly in the US as well, blacks actually often have an advantage.

but as a general theme, it is indeed the poverty and lack of opportunity which breeds those environments, and placing different 'races' into those same environments causes the same effect.

Why are blacks poor? Is it because everyone is evil and hold them back, or because they just don't have the same value on the work market of western societies as white or asian people - because of genetical and cultural factors?

In short, the liberal 'argument' is socioeconomical ranging in a wide breath of factors which result in the disparity.

Leftists always want to point to a "myriad of factors". Why not make it simple? Blacks generally have higher testosterone, less impulse control, and generally lower intelligence.

None of these traits are much valued in most professions, so blacks often become "the underclass" socio-economically. Is that fair? Nope, but then the world isn't. So deal with it and stop asking for exceptions because of race.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin" is not only not right, it is not even wrong

I call BS.

I don't think racists care much about the amount of melanin in their skin. I think they care about other genetical factors more involving the brain... Also, culture is a BIG issue.

Honestly speaking I very much dislike the culture I have seen around blacks, both in Europe and in the US. They just don't seem to contribute much to a western society - and generally get in direct conflict with it. NO MATTER how much money, time or energy you waste on them.

I have tried to myself, but these days I have just given up. They are just not worth my efforts in the long run, I spend it better elsewhere.

[Sarmatian]

They do? Last I checked blacks get into good schools and universities not because they deserve it compared to the other applicants, but because they are black.

There is a load of well meaning projects and programs to help blacks, as well.

To be honest, at least here in Sweden and reportedly in the US as well, blacks actually often have an advantage.

They don't.

Why are blacks poor? Is it because everyone is evil and hold them back, or because they just don't have the same value on the work market of western societies as white or asian people - because of genetical and cultural factors?

For the most part, yes.

The modern US were built after the Great Depression. After that and ww2, middle class of America was born. The basis of that was the New Deal, which was about large scale public work projects and cheap houses (simplified version). During that time, blacks in America were for the first time given an opportunity to work and be beneficiaries of public funded projects. Mind you, that doesn't mean they were equal. They were still underrepresented and they received lower pay for the same work. On the other hand, they were almost completely excluded from the other part - affordable houses. They were simply regarded as not being creditworthy, just because they were black. It had nothing to do with income, type of job, or education.

In the 50's, 60's and partly 70's, the price of houses was rising, allowing whites to take a mortgage on their houses, which many did. That money was used to start a business or educate children. Blacks weren't able to do that simply because they didn't own their houses.

Even much later, during 80's and 90's, it was harder for blacks than whites to acquire a loan from the banks. Banks tended to lend to low income whites rather than middle income blacks. Investigative journalist Bill Dedman received Pulitzer's prize for his series of articles called "Color of Money" in 1989, in which he showed the extent of it in Atlanta.

Just take a look at the picture

Leftists always want to point to a "myriad of factors". Why not make it simple? Blacks generally have higher testosterone, less impulse control, and generally lower intelligence.

Because making it simple in the way you're trying to portray is like killing Jews because they brought plague to Europe. Why blame on the myriad of factors, like poor education, poor understanding of medicine, poor hygiene, germs, lack of sanitation... It's simple - the Jews are to blame.

None of these traits are much valued in most professions, so blacks often become "the underclass" socio-economically. Is that fair? Nope, but then the world isn't. So deal with it and stop asking for exceptions because of race.

As Beskar said - this is not even wrong.

I call BS.

I don't think racists care much about the amount of melanin in their skin. I think they care about other genetical factors more involving the brain... Also, culture is a BIG issue.

Honestly speaking I very much dislike the culture I have seen around blacks, both in Europe and in the US. They just don't seem to contribute much to a western society - and generally get in direct conflict with it. NO MATTER how much money, time or energy you waste on them.

I have tried to myself, but these days I have just given up. They are just not worth my efforts in the long run, I spend it better elsewhere.

And there simply isn't a single serious research to confirm that view.

Culture is a factor. Genes aren't. Whites are responsible for the most part for those cultural problems. There still is institutionalized racism. Those are the facts. Deal with them.

[Greyblades]

Culture is a factor. Genes aren't. Whites are responsible for the most part for those cultural problems. There still is institutionalized racism. Those are the facts. Deal with them.

Give me an example of institutional racism that has survived to the present day.

[Sarmatian]

Give me an example of institutional racism that has survived to the present day.

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

[Kadagar_AV]

Sarmatian,

First of all, you never heard of affirmative action? Blacks DO have benefits when it comes to education.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/educati...-overview.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirm...#United_States


Dude, wake up.



Also, NO, saying black people become a problem in the western societies is NOT equal to saying one should kill all jews. It also isn't the same as saying one should kill black people.

My point is that black people more often are problematic and I for one DO NOT want black culture around me. Just like I don't want Arab culture around me.

Why? Because I am white, I am a westerner, and I quite dislike their way of life.

Sure, they are free to HAVE that way of life. They can do whatever they want.

As_long_as_it_isn't_around_me.


Also... Did I read your right? You agree that blacks become the underclass in western societies because of genetical and cultural factors?


Research on black peoples intelligence is shunned... So far you are right.

However, research HAS been made, and it all conforms to the popular belief that blacks tend to be on the lower end of the bell curve when it comes to academic intelligence.

I can point at a few examples and studies showing blacks are generally more challenged on the intellectual scene...

Can you show me sources showing they are on par with whites when it comes to IQ?

Can you show me studies showing blacks are on par with east asians?

Heck, can you show me studies saying whites are or par with east asians?

All the evidence I have seen show:

East Asians > Whites > Blacks.



Also, of course there are institutionalised worries about choosing black people for a position when you could have a white one. I totally understand this worry too, I for one would always hire someone white unless the black person clearly had more experience and former work credit.

Why?

Because I have had a lot of problems with blacks, and way less problem with whites.

Is that racist, or just a result of life experience?

[Kadagar_AV]

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

Can it be explained with whites BEHAVING better, even when drugged?

As an example, when I smoked weed we used to go out and play frisbee golf...

My black co-workers during the same time would smoke weed, go to bars, and harass white girls...


No wonder that the police would crack down harder on the latter group.

[rvg]

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

For crack? Perhaps, because most whites don't do crack. Just like most blacks don't do crystal meth. However if you looks at overall drug incarceration rate, blacks make up about 40% of inmates.

[Greyblades]

More whites use cocaine than blacks. 80-90% of people going to jail for the use of cocaine are blacks.

Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

[Husar]

Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

There was this report by the US ministry of law or something that basically said the institution called police targets blacks unfairly in at least that one troublesome city. People who don't just read racist nazi blogs should know what I'm talking about.

[Greyblades]

Nice implication.

Regardless. Present it.

[Kadagar_AV]

There was this report by the US ministry of law or something that basically said the institution called police targets blacks unfairly in at least that one troublesome city. People who don't just read racist nazi blogs should know what I'm talking about.

So police in one city in the world were bad against blacks...

Yeah, now I totally see why we would get blacks off of common decent behaviour


On a further note...

I don't mind the police targeting blacks more, when the blacks commit more crime...

Say that you have a population of a hundred blacks, and a hundred whites...

Of the whites 2/100 will commit serious crimes.

Of the blacks 10/100 will commit serious crimes.

Shouldn't the police then spend 5 times as much effort on monitoring the black population? At least this is the problem in Sweden... When the police target crime ridden groups, they get hit with the racism-card at once.

As an example, recently the police where found having a register of our gypsies explaining family ties, close connections and so on... The police were hit HARD because of racism...

Nevermind that the gypsies here is ALL ABOUT parasitizing on the host society...

Of course they should be targeted, they are a cancer in an orderly society!!

[Husar]

Nice implication.

Regardless. Present it.

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

So police in one city in the world were bad against blacks...

Use common sense, it's not just happening in one city.

[Greyblades]

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

Half your post are trolling, and you have a habit of throwing a tantrum when you are challenged to back up the rest, no wonder I have come to doubt every claim you make.

[Kadagar_AV]

Find it yourself.
You were able to find all the wrong arguments, now use your abilities to find the good ones.

Why don't you?

I can once again point to a myriad of evidence of blacks being more stupid than whites, or east asians... Can you find anything, like any research at all, that would confirm that blacks are just as intelligent as east asians - or even whites?

Use common sense, it's not just happening in one city.

Police probably are more focused on blacks in most cities, to be honest.

Now, is that because of racism or because of genetical / cultural differences? You have some sort of for you politically correct way of looking at this, it seems...

But where are the facts?



FACT 1: Blacks from poor countries tend to do really, really bad in western societies...

Fact 2: East Asians from poor countries tend to do really well in western societies...


Want to explain "socioeconomic factors" again? Puh-Leeze...

Some are smart, some or dumb. That's just the way the world is

[Strike For The South]

I suppose I have been meandering around my point for too long. The South has always been burdened with a disproportionate amount of American sin. The American flag flew over slaves, Imperialism, and genocide. Union commanders went on to massacre Indians in the west less than decade after the war. Outside of a few abolitionists, everyone was a frothing at the mouth racist. Racism was just as bad in the north through the civil rights movement, look at the Boston bus riots or MLK jr's attempts to organize the black population of Chicago.

So, Why is the American flag any different than the battle flag one? Maybe it represents hope, that is what I like to think. The flag represents all of our past sins but also all of our hopes and dreams. The flags past can not change, but its future has to be molded. The battle flag on the other hand remains stagnant, an ugly relic of a shameful and calamitous past. However, on some of my grumpier days I think the deference to the flag may be more of the product of might makes right. It sits on top if only because it is the victor.

I know Dylan Roofs family were German immigrants whom came here after the war. I know he shares a kinship with apartheid era Rhodesia and South Africa something that has nothing to do with America. His manifesto looks like a rip off of common neo nazi tropes that can be found all over the internet. He does not care about this land, only his warped views of hierarchy based on melanin content. So everyone from Amazon to Wal-mart will shake their finger and get kudos for taking away merchandise but nothing will change.

We won't talk about why another American decided to act out in a mass shooting. We won't have a frank discussion about race. We won't even broach the subject of angry young men being seduced be delusional ideas. We will simply pin it on the battle flag and the south, while the seat gets a little heavier as more sin is added to it.

Edit: I don't even like the flag. I am a dyed in the wool Federalist and small "r" republican. My family were unionists and I am immensely proud of that fact. I recognize one flag. I consider the battle flag treason.

Edit 2: There seems to be some confusion as to who his ancestors actually were. I'll leave mypost for now but change it if something comes up

[PanzerJaeger]

That was Panzer who did that.

Not my intention. Your call for revisiting Reconstruction just seemed to lack a measure of logical consistency.

This study says nothing in particular about how black people are treated and everything to do with cost of living.

Well, yes, it does require a modest amount of reading between the lines. The South is the only region in America with a growing - both in number and affluence - black middle class, independent and well regarded black educational and social institutions, and large scale black political leadership - leading to considerable in-migration, by far the largest black population growth in the country. Unlike the culture of dependency present in the Northeast and certain West Coast cities, blacks in the South have built businesses, wealth, and a society on their own, which has actually allowed a number of them to escape the cycle of poverty we're conditioned to believe 'institutional racism' keeps blacks in forever. You'll never see the kind of rioting in the South that you did in Baltimore or LA, because the blacks in the South actually have a vested interest in the society they've built (I'll refrain from sharing an opinion on the quality of that society). The economy is doing better than the Rust Belt, sure, but it's definitely not booming throughout most of the South. Thus, the insidious racism you describe either isn't all that insidious or not what you believe it to be. Appeals to some caricature of what popular culture thinks the South is based on events that took place 50 years ago are always fun, but demographics don't lie.

The racial argument employed by Racists and their ilk is "because they got more melanin in their skin"

Don't forget those troublesome IQ scores...

[Sarmatian]

Sarmatian,

First of all, you never heard of affirmative action? Blacks DO have benefits when it comes to education.

http://www.ncsl.org/research/educati...-overview.aspx

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirm...#United_States


Dude, wake up.

Dude, read the links you provided. Do you understand waht affirmative action is?

Affirmative action policies often focus on employment and education. In institutions of higher education, affirmative action refers to admission policies that provide equal access to education for those groups that have been historically excluded or underrepresented, such as women and minorities.

Also, NO, saying black people become a problem in the western societies is NOT equal to saying one should kill all jews. It also isn't the same as saying one should kill black people.

It isn't the same as killing Jews, but it is the same old principle of going for the easy answer, instead of assessing all the issues.

My point is that black people more often are problematic and I for one DO NOT want black culture around me. Just like I don't want Arab culture around me.

Why? Because I am white, I am a westerner, and I quite dislike their way of life.

Sure, they are free to HAVE that way of life. They can do whatever they want.

As_long_as_it_isn't_around_me.

If you really think blacks want their kids to grow up in a ghetto or be part of a gang, you really need to do your research better.

Also... Did I read your right? You agree that blacks become the underclass in western societies because of genetical and cultural factors?

There are cultural factors, not genetic. Those cultural factors are a result of a long time of oppression.

Research on black peoples intelligence is shunned... So far you are right.

However, research HAS been made, and it all conforms to the popular belief that blacks tend to be on the lower end of the bell curve when it comes to academic intelligence.

I can point at a few examples and studies showing blacks are generally more challenged on the intellectual scene...

Can you show me sources showing they are on par with whites when it comes to IQ?

Can you show me studies showing blacks are on par with east asians?

Heck, can you show me studies saying whites are or par with east asians?

Go to MENSA and ask them to explain IQ to you. Intelligence isn't something we fully understand, but it is connected to the education. To have a meaningful study, you would have to pick a statistically significant sample of people of similar background and education.

All the evidence I have seen show:

East Asians > Whites > Blacks.



Also, of course there are institutionalised worries about choosing black people for a position when you could have a white one. I totally understand this worry too, I for one would always hire someone white unless the black person clearly had more experience and former work credit.

Why?

Because I have had a lot of problems with blacks, and way less problem with whites.

Is that racist, or just a result of life experience?

"For the past century raw scores on IQ tests have been rising; this score increase is known as the "Flynn effect," named after Jim Flynn. In the United States, the increase was continuous and approximately linear from the earliest years of testing to about 1998 when the gains stopped and some tests even showed decreasing test scores. For example, in the United States the average scores of blacks on some IQ tests in 1995 were the same as the scores of whites in 1945.[55] Flynn has argued that given that these changes take place between one generation and the next it is highly unlikely that genetic factors could account for the increasing scores, which must then be caused by environmental factors. "

With better access to education and more integration into society, blacks are suddenly getting more intelligent?

Can it be explained with whites BEHAVING better, even when drugged?

As an example, when I smoked weed we used to go out and play frisbee golf...

My black co-workers during the same time would smoke weed, go to bars, and harass white girls...

No wonder that the police would crack down harder on the latter group.

No. Anecdotal evidence. I have white friends who play Risk when high, and those who go to bars and harass girls.

For crack? Perhaps, because most whites don't do crack. Just like most blacks don't do crystal meth. However if you looks at overall drug incarceration rate, blacks make up about 40% of inmates.

Which proves my point as whites use more drugs overall.

Ok.

Now prove that it is the insitution causing this.

No, it's a clerical error.

Spend a few hours on it. You will find that it is present almost everywhere. Blacks get harsher punishments than whites for comparable crimes. They get paid less for comparable work. They pay more interest for credits...

[Beskar]

Don't forget those troublesome IQ scores...

IQ measures IQ, not intelligence, and it's flaws are very well documented, especially with cultural bias. Even then, many factors such as diet play a more significant influence on the physical and mental develop than melanin content. Your commen means nothing.

- Comes from guy with IQ of 167.