Query re merged units

[DEB8]

I know that the following applies ( per the manual ) when two part units are merged: Medieval: Total War keeps track of every man’s valour separately in the game, and the unit valour is an average of the valour of its men. However, does this also apply re : morale, weapon and armour bonuses ?

[ NB : I seem to recall a similar thing re the "valour" note in STW ( re Honour ). Does this apply re : morale, weapon and armour bonuses in STW also ?? ]

[drone]

I've never gotten a definitive answer on this, but the consensus guess has been that the morale, armour and weapons follow the unit commander. Due to the game mechanics, it doesn't make sense to have morale tracked per man (the unit either breaks or not), but it's possible that armour and weapons could be tracked per man.

[LordK9]

Somehow, despite consensus, I have a hard time believing this. If you take a small (very damaged) unit with upgraded weapons and mix a full unit into it that does not have upgraded weapons, the new full unit will have upgraded weapons - basically switching the two.

[DEB8]

If you take a small (very damaged) unit with upgraded weapons and mix a full unit into it that does not have upgraded weapons, the new full unit will have upgraded weapons - basically switching the two.

What you state here seems a slight "cheat" / bug. Why mix a full strength unit with a partial unit anyway ???

In my experience (mainly STW I admit ), any merger of understrength units usually results in the Weapons and/or Armour "displayed" as being adjusted to that of the larger unit. As to what actually occurs...

[LordK9]

--- to test a cheat. I didn't normally but I do make sure that the unit being used to bring another to full strngth is lower or equal armor/weapons - a way of upgrading by dismantling the weaker units. For instance, one weaker equipped unit will be used to bring several better units up to full strength and if totally depleted, a new one created at the higher level city.

[DEB8]

--- to test a cheat. I didn't normally but I do make sure that the unit being used to bring another to full strngth is lower or equal armor/weapons - a way of upgrading by dismantling the weaker units. For instance, one weaker equipped unit will be used to bring several better units up to full strength and if totally depleted, a new one created at the higher level city.

I follow this if you use a smaller ( numerical ) and weaker unit ( re Armour/Weapons type ) to return a larger and stronger unit back to full strength ( as stated above ).

However, your first post suggested you used a smaller ( numerical ) and stronger unit ( re Armour/Weapons type ) to upgrade a Full Strength and Weaker unit.

As I said before, the latter is ( if used , IMHO ) a slight "cheat" ( exploiting what looks like a game "bug" )...

[DEB8]

I've never gotten a definitive answer on this, but the consensus guess has been that the morale, armour and weapons follow the unit commander.

To be honest, I would hope that these factors are tracked individually or based on the majority, rather than following the unit commander. But we get what's programmed, what ever applies...

[LordK9]

Exactly; the test was to take a badly damaged unit with upgraded weapons and armor and merge it with a full strength unit without the upgrades. The former depleted unit becomes full strength while retaining its weapons and armor upgrades and the now depleted unit retains its unupgraded stats. It is a cheat - use your best units and keep the upgrades far from the upgrade city by merging the newly created nonupgrated units with the depeleted upgraded ones. Everyone has their own ideas about what cheats are acceptable - I refuse to make an effort to do this but ---- if the units just happen to be there, I make sure that weaker units are merged into depleted smaller units. Not much of a difference but I'm comfortable with it - but too the point, unless the commander is considered the unit, it likely doesn't follow the commander. If it did, the unit would lose its upgrades if the unit commander was killed.

[DEB8]

Exactly; the test was to take a badly damaged unit with upgraded weapons and armor and merge it with a full strength unit without the upgrades. The former depleted unit becomes full strength while retaining its weapons and armor upgrades and the now depleted unit retains its unupgraded stats. It is a cheat - use your best units and keep the upgrades far from the upgrade city by merging the newly created nonupgrated units with the depeleted upgraded ones. Everyone has their own ideas about what cheats are acceptable - I refuse to make an effort to do this but ---- if the units just happen to be there, I make sure that weaker units are merged into depleted smaller units. Not much of a difference but I'm comfortable with it

That fair enough.

unless the commander is considered the unit, it likely doesn't follow the commander. If it did, the unit would lose its upgrades if the unit commander was killed.

A good observation ! However, could a new unit commander be "appointed" from the upgraded troops ??? I have noted in the past ( in STW ), that when a unit's main "standard" bearer is killed, the "standard" reappears with one of the other men. Perhaps this applies with the leader too ? I can't recall directly one way or another, but I think I have seen a change to the unit commanders name on a few odd occasions...

[LordK9]

That's really what I meant saying the unit commander is the unit - I could think of no clear way to express this and it was the best poor way I came up with :) . Say eight commanders are killed in a battle - each new commander is basically the same as the old commander and in the end, nothing changes - surviving men have the same upgrade. When a unit merges, the merging unit may cease to exist and the whole unit that was merged into retains its upgrades or, if not (still exists), they both stay the same. To my way of thinking, its following the unit but, really, its the same thing following a generic commander. Also, I kind of think of merging to u7pgrade in this manner is simply that the upgraded unit has higher standards for equipment and so give the new men garnered from a different unit the new stuff while the old units takes back their equipment. Rationalizing, I know ----

[DEB8]

That's really what I meant saying the unit commander is the unit

OK - Perhaps this is what happens here...

Rationalizing, I know ----

Seems logical to me

[DEB8]

I know that the following applies ( per the manual ) when two part units are merged: Medieval: Total War keeps track of every man’s valour separately in the game, and the unit valour is an average of the valour of its men. However, does this also apply re : morale, weapon and armour bonuses ?

[ NB : I seem to recall a similar thing re the "valour" note in STW ( re Honour ). Does this apply re : morale, weapon and armour bonuses in STW also ?? ]

I have traced MTW's "Battle Results" ( in the "Logfiles" Folder ).

These list "Pre-Battle Honour" ( Valour ) , "Post-Battle Honour" ( Valour ) , "Armour" , "Weapon" , "Kills" , "Friendly Kills" (!) and "How Soldier Left Battle" for each individual soldier in a battle. Each battle is "listed" on a seperate file. Files are labelled to show "campaign/custom/quick/historical campaign/tutorial" battles, along with a date and a 6 digit number ( significence unknown ).

It therefore "appears" that each soldiers Armour and Weapon are tracked, as well as their Valour. Morale is not ( it appears ), tracked ( per soldier ).

[ NB : Each battle file I have viewed to date ( not many ); has listed the same value for each soldier in a unit re Weapon and Armour ( i.e. the "norm" ).
Next time I have a battle with a unit that I know has merged soldiers with different weapons and/or Armour, I will check out the appropriate units "stats" and report here accordingly. ]

[Ludens]

[ NB : Each battle file I have viewed to date ( not many ); has listed the same value for each soldier in a unit re Weapon and Armour ( i.e. the "norm" ).
Next time I have a battle with a unit that I know has merged soldiers with different weapons and/or Armour, I will check out the appropriate units "stats" and report here accordingly. ]

That would be appreciated .

IIRC it's not clear how morale bonuses work: it's possible they apply to units defending the province, rather than units recruited there.

[drone]

These list "Pre-Battle Honour" ( Valour ) , "Post-Battle Honour" ( Valour ) , "Armour" , "Weapon" , "Kills" , "Friendly Kills" (!) and "How Soldier Left Battle" for each individual soldier in a battle. Each battle is "listed" on a seperate file. Files are labelled to show "campaign/custom/quick/historical campaign/tutorial" battles, along with a date and a 6 digit number ( significence unknown ).

It therefore "appears" that each soldiers Armour and Weapon are tracked, as well as their Valour. Morale is not ( it appears ), tracked ( per soldier ).

Morale is a unit function, since you can't have a part of a unit break. I'm curious about fatigue though, if armour is tracked separately, maybe fatigue is as well, with the bars just showing the unit average.

[DEB8]

I'm curious about fatigue though, if armour is tracked separately, maybe fatigue is as well, with the bars just showing the unit average.

The traced txt file does not include fatigue, so it appears it is not tracked.

[ Presumably most of the soldiers in a given unit will be covering roughly the same distance ( re movement ) ; so any, ( if any ), differences would have to be as a result of combat...
Minimal, therefore waived ??? ]

[drone]

Sorry, what I meant was that if individuals within a unit have separate armour values, the ones with higher armour would fatigue faster during a battle. Fatigue resets in between battles and wouldn't have to be stored.

[DEB8]

Sorry, what I meant was that if individuals within a unit have separate armour values, the ones with higher armour would fatigue faster during a battle.

Ah ! OK ... Reasonable.

Fatigue resets in between battles and wouldn't have to be stored.

True ( I forgot that too ) ...

[DEB8]

It therefore "appears" that each soldiers Armour and Weapon are tracked, as well as their Valour. Morale is not ( it appears ), tracked ( per soldier ).

[ NB : Each battle file I have viewed to date ( not many ); has listed the same value for each soldier in a unit re Weapon and Armour ( i.e. the "norm" ).
Next time I have a battle with a unit that I know has merged soldiers with different weapons and/or Armour, I will check out the appropriate units "stats" and report here accordingly. ]

Sadly, early results ( to date ), suggest that each soldiers Armour and Weapon are NOT tracked...

[ I.E. A unit of Huscarles, known to be made up of soldiers with both Improved Weapons and Improved Armour PLUS soldiers with no improved Weapons or Armour ; showed post battle as ALL having both Improved Weapons and Improved Armour ( as per the unit Icon detail shown on the general "Review Panel" graphics and the "in battle" unit Information panels ).

Per chance my memory may have let me down here, so I will continue to monitor and report further ( but I am not hopeful ).

[Ludens]

Per chance my memory may have let me down here, so I will continue to monitor and report further ( but I am not hopeful ).

Thank you for that.

Incidentally, about fatigue, I recall an old post by Puzz3D (it probably was about S:TW rather than M:TW) stating that CA initially did track fatigue on an individual basis. However, because there is no rotation in the units, this resulted in the front rank of the unit becoming very fatigued (and easily killed) while the rest of the unit was still fresh, so CA dropped it. However, I can't find it, and it was a very long time ago, so I may be misremembering.

I did find this post by him on the S:TW combat system, where he states that the fatigue rate is based on the activity of individual soldiers, but the effects of fatigue are calculated from the unit average.

[DEB8]

I did find this post by him on the S:TW combat system, where he states that the fatigue rate is based on the activity of individual soldiers, but the effects of fatigue are calculated from the unit average.

Interesting - thanks.

[DEB8]

Recently I put a unit of 20 Round Shield Spearmen ( VI campaign ) with level one Armour, into a training queue to upgrade them.
[ I made a slight error, in that the province only had facilities to upgrade to level one Weapons - oops... ]

The unit came out as 100 Round Shield Spearmen with level one Weapons AND level one Armour !
[ I know you can't upgrade a unit type, if that unit type cannot be built in a province ( the game system refuses to let you put it in the queue ) ;
so I am very suprised the game system allowed me to place the Spearmen into the queue here at all !! ]

Anyway, I'll monitor this unit ( in any future battles ) to check it's "makeup" , and advise accordingly.

[ NB : No news yet re those merged units ( Huscarles ) being tracked. ]