AI splits units defending a "castle" assault (VI)

[DEB8]

I have had two occasions where the units defending a "castle" assault were split (2 units adjusted to 3 and 4 units adjusted to 6 ). On each occasion the larger ( spear ) units were split (in half ). I cannot recall this happening in the Medieval period game I played, but it has happened during a Viking Invasion period game. Has anyone else come across this ?

[Brandy Blue]

Often enough that I assumed it was supposed to happen occasionally.

[drone]

This happens in the VI campaign when the "castle" is one of the smaller forts (Warrior Hold, Stockade, maybe Fortified Village). I believe CA made this change so the defender could better manage the two open gates of those castle types, and not have to maneuver a big spear unit within the confines of the smaller fortifications.

[Brandy Blue]

Seems a bit unfair that the attacker doesn't get the more maneuverable split units too. Or maybe not. If you don't want to squeeze 100 guys through a narrow gate, you can simply knock down a wall.

Been a while since I played, but I don't remember two gates. Is that a universal feature of smaller forts, or only on some maps?

[drone]

All of the smaller forts are like that. There's a wall around the buildings, with 2 openings on either end. The walls force you to attack through the openings, but that's about the extent of the defenses.

[DEB8]

I am unsure re the 2 gates too. Each of my 3 assaults in VI to date ( 1 Stockade , 2 Fortified Villages ) only had 1 opening ( stockade ) or 1 gate ( Fortified Village ) so far as I could see... Certainly there is not much ( if any ) room to manouvre large units in the VI "castles" I have encountered to date !!!

Drone : I note you refer to "defender" here re the splitting of the larger units. Is this available to the Player and the AI or just the AI ???

[DEB8]

A little detail further to my original post :

On the first occasion the split unit was the General's unit ( 65 Fyrdmen to 33 and 32 ). The 33 ( I believe ) remained the General's unit.

On the second occasion the split units appearred both inside the "castle" and outside the "castle" ( in a nearby wood ) ; with 1 half unit inside and 3 half units outside !

[ NB : on both occasions the assault occured after a siege round. ]


I hope the latter tactic ( "Castle" / Woods split ) is not limited to the AI... Can anyone advise re this. Thanks.

[ NBB : Having just viewed several custom battles re Viking "castles", I believe this is limited to the AI (only ) !! ]

[Brandy Blue]

All of the smaller forts are like that. There's a wall around the buildings, with 2 openings on either end. The walls force you to attack through the openings, but that's about the extent of the defenses.

Are you sure? IIRC you are not forced to attack through a gate but can have your infantry knock a hole in a wall or even burn it down with fire arrows.

[DEB8]

All of the smaller forts are like that. There's a wall around the buildings, with 2 openings on either end. The walls force you to attack through the openings, but that's about the extent of the defenses.

I have just looked at most of the Stockade and Fortified Village Viking castle maps in the Custom Battles section of the game. All of those viewed only had 1 entrance ( and only 1 road in/out too ).

Are you sure re two entrances for the Campaign game ?!?

[drone]

I have just looked at most of the Stockade and Fortified Village Viking castle maps in the Custom Battles section of the game. All of those viewed only had 1 entrance ( and only 1 road in/out too ).

Are you sure re two entrances for the Campaign game ?!?

It's been a while since I played a VI campaign, so I'm probably wrong about the 2 gates. The split units only happens at the lower castle levels though. And yes, the AI will stick a half-unit outside hidden in woods at times, it's very annoying especially when the timer is running and you don't have cavalry to find the cowards.

I don't know if the human player can split the units, I've never had to defend a lower level castle before.

Are you sure? IIRC you are not forced to attack through a gate but can have your infantry knock a hole in a wall or even burn it down with fire arrows.

You could do that, but that early in the game who has time for that?

[Gilrandir]

I don't know if the human player can split the units, I've never had to defend a lower level castle before.

In fact, it is done by the AI for the human player. I had it done for me many times.

[DEB8]

In fact, it is done by the AI for the human player. I had it done for me many times.

Interesting...

Thanks for that !!

NB : Was that just the unit splitting, or did it include placement/s outside of the "castle" too ???

[Gilrandir]

Interesting...

Thanks for that !!

NB : Was that just the unit splitting, or did it include placement/s outside of the "castle" too ???

It was several full-size units split and one "splinter" could be located in the lower court the second up in the citadel, or both could be in the citadel, or (if it was one level fortress) both were located separately in the fort. All sorts of options, both for me and for the AI if I was the attacker.

[DEB8]

It was several full-size units split and one "splinter" could be located in the lower court the second up in the citadel, or both could be in the citadel, or (if it was one level fortress) both were located separately in the fort. All sorts of options, both for me and for the AI if I was the attacker.

Your answer implies "splitting" only. Were any units compleately outside of the "castle" , i.e. say in a nearby wood ???

[ I take it that this reply also refers to MTW proper rather than the VI add on. Any information re what happens in VI ? ]

[Gilrandir]

Your answer implies "splitting" only. Were any units compleately outside of the "castle" , i.e. say in a nearby wood ???

[ I take it that this reply also refers to MTW proper rather than the VI add on. Any information re what happens in VI ? ]

If the number of units was more than 16, some were outside the battlefield and came in as reinforcements. That is speaking of me defending the castle. I don't remember any other details, but I can make some deductions.
If an enemy is hiding somewhere the battle isn't over, right? So if someone is, you will have to wait wondering why your battle isn't over. I can't remember such situations. I took the castle and that's it. No waiting and wondering.
My game has a VI add-on, so I must assume it refers to battles in either mode. Yet I don't play VI very often, still less I play siege battles in it, so can't remember any cases referring to VI proper. Moreover, I never paid attention to such things.
But soon I'm going to play Scots (if I pluck up enough courage) and I will take notice of it.

[DEB8]

If the number of units was more than 16, some were outside the battlefield and came in as reinforcements.

That's a given and not what I am refering to... The "outside" units are outside the "castle" but on the map ( battlefield ), and are usually out of sight ( initially ), hence the Woods example. To date, they have not remained hidden and they usually attempt to aid the troops inside the "castle" !

That is speaking of me defending the castle. I don't remember any other details,

Fair enough.

If an enemy is hiding somewhere the battle isn't over, right?

Correct.

So if someone is, you will have to wait wondering why your battle isn't over. I can't remember such situations. I took the castle and that's it. No waiting and wondering.

Noted - see previous replies though.

My game has a VI add-on, so I must assume it refers to battles in either mode. Yet I don't play VI very often, still less I play siege battles in it, so can't remember any cases referring to VI proper. Moreover, I never paid attention to such things. But soon I'm going to play Scots (if I pluck up enough courage) and I will take notice of it.

OK - Thanks...

[Gilrandir]

Just finished my Scottish campaign (btw, it wasn't that hard as I had feared, had problems mostly initially, when I was playing tug-of-war with the Picts).

Once I was besieged in a fortress by the Irish. Since it was some low level (a fortified village, IIRC) it could house only 3 out of my 4 units. So when these three were done with, my fourth unit (the archers) got to the field in the way of reinforcements - from beyond the edge of the battlefield. I marched it to the village - and was defeated totally.

But I now I realize that I could have hidden it somewhere in the woods and given more headache to those dratted Irish. Perhaps it was the way the AI uses when it is in similar situation. Then a unit comes from behind the horizon and hides somewhere and you have a problem with finding it.

I hope I shed some light on the problem discussed.

[DEB8]

Once I was besieged in a fortress by the Irish. Since it was some low level (a fortified village, IIRC) it could house only 3 out of my 4 units. So when these three were done with, my fourth unit (the archers) got to the field in the way of reinforcements - from beyond the edge of the battlefield. I marched it to the village - and was defeated totally.

But I now I realize that I could have hidden it somewhere in the woods and given more headache to those dratted Irish. Perhaps it was the way the AI uses when it is in similar situation.

Did you have to make a choice somehow / sometime , re placing the unit that did not "fit" into the "castle" ???
If so, please advise the mechanics ( if you can recall them ). Thanks.

Then a unit comes from behind the horizon and hides somewhere and you have a problem with finding it.

This "sounds" rather like a reinforcement. My limited experience here has units hiding in nearby woods and attacking you during the "siege" assault. They are not far away, nor do they stay hidden. I even got attacked by a 1 man Huscarle unit this way recently !!!!

Generally, I think that the AI may get to place units on Map this way, but the player cannot. I may be wrong though...
I will "report" further when/if a suitible happening occurs.

[Gilrandir]

Did you have to make a choice somehow / sometime , re placing the unit that did not "fit" into the "castle" ???
If so, please advise the mechanics ( if you can recall them ). Thanks.

No choice, regretfully. I just saw the fortress I had to defend and three units in it. The fourth unit's panel was on the screen, but the unit appeared later in the way I described. Perhaps I could have summoned it at once, but I didn't try it.

This "sounds" rather like a reinforcement. My limited experience here has units hiding in nearby woods and attacking you during the "siege" assault. They are not far away, nor do they stay hidden. I even got attacked by a 1 man Huscarle unit this way recently !!!!

Reinforcements are those units which are above the 16 allowed to be present on the battlefield. I had only four. So I don't have any explanation to what you witnessed.

[DEB8]

No choice, regretfully. I just saw the fortress I had to defend and three units in it. The fourth unit's panel was on the screen, but the unit appeared later in the way I described. Perhaps I could have summoned it at once, but I didn't try it.

Ah ! OK. Interesting...

Reinforcements are those units which are above the 16 allowed to be present on the battlefield. I had only four.

True...

[ Perchance my "General" comment is correct ( overall ) then... ]