10 years

[Beskar]

Could someone please just tell us non veterans what happened with Lois?

Here are threads related to Louis-gate.

BQ complaining one
Initial Thread
The Louis post in question.
One of the later Louis topics

There are a few deleted posts, and a few threads by Louis with creative titles involving a certain word. But that should cover the jist.

Edit: For context, the Org was very strict back then on words. I myself received an infraction for using the word 'Damn'.

[GeneralHankerchief]

In addition to the above, here's a choice Watchtower thread from several months after the issue.

As somebody who was an active staff member at the time this went down, I'm going to respect the rules of not discussing what went on behind the scenes, but a couple of quotes from the linked thread do a good job of summing it up:

Some people see the org as a place where they hang out and chat with other people they like chatting with, and see the rules as being useful to the extent that they allow this to happen without much fuss. Other people imagine that the whole business of who broke a rule and whether there is fairness or bias etc is extremely important and worth pages and pages of internet drama, with accusations and demands for apology and orgies of hand-wringing. These people are usually not the most frequent posters in the backroom and so don't really care if people get fed up with silly drama and stop posting.

"Louis-gate" in a nutshell.

Hmmm. It's not quite as simple as that, Strike. Louis had several opportunities to defuse the situation, and he didn't take them. It was a classic "this could have been sorted out with an apology and a laugh" kinda escalating, cascading event. Actually, thinking about it, Louisgate kinda resembled a classic tragicomedy in that way, lots of people making marginal calls that add up to a big, painful dénouement.

As well as everything Andres posted in the thread as well.

Some of the trolls who actively contributed to the loss of these members posting in this very thread (not you ACIN) to celebrate their demise has been an absolute hoot though, so this has been fun.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Wow, rereading the shibumi thread. That drunk clown guy trolled me harder than anyone else. We joked about being the same person, then when it came to the Louis threads he amped it up too much.

[Beskar]

*referring to the not saying stuff*

Here are the rules of being a staff member as set out by TosaInu. All staff members have had to agree to:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Your expected conduct as a moderator:

-You will endeavor to keep in mind that the forum belongs to the totalwar.org patrons and not to you personally.

-To avoid confusion about who is deleting/closing what, you are assigned to a single forum-area, In other words: don't worry about the other forums they are someone elses responsibility.

-You are free to move wayward threads to other forums if they are incorrectly posted in your forum-area (i.e. send them to General Discussion, OT, etc).

-You are free to close threads at your discretion within your given forum-area. (Note: whenever you excercise your right to close a thread please insert a final msg explaining you reasons/rational for doing so).

-You are authorized to remove posts/threads in the following circumstances:
1) if the post contains obscene language (i.e. the obscenity filter is dodged),
2) if the post conveys threatening or abusive intent against yourself, other moderators, or patrons
3) if the post contains references or solicitations for multiplayer cheats and/or warez/cd key-code information (note: single-player cheats are okay), and
4) If a post/thread is accidentally double-posted by a patron you may remove one of them.
5) Msgs containing blatant spam (i.e. "make money fast") are to be closed for a period of 24 hours, and then subsequently deleted.

-What was said, what is said and what will be said in the Keep, remains in the Keep (Kurando said so too, but I say it again).

-No back- and/or blackchat about colleagues. We're all human and things will happen at some point. Work it out in the topic where the hurt was done. If you're not big enough to say sorry, you should be big enough to avoid conflicts at all cost!

-Don't make up (drama and off) stories to achieve something. That's manipulating? Intrigues?

-Do not say A and do B. Difficult choices will have to be made. Being critical and changing mind is good, in fact encouraged. But do not say A to one person and B to the second one (this includes dodgy undercover accounts).

-Be honest, modest and work in a positive way. No one expects you to work here 24 hours a day and in fact, just interacting in your forum for 20 minutes a day does wonders (leading by example?).

Note: if you have a continuing problem with a particular you must contact the forum administrator.
Hence before you delete any posts make sure you note the IP address of the offending patron(s); which as a moderator you will now be empowered to view.

Note: It is an outside possibility that you will at some point have to make a decision to close a thread because of it's content. Closing threads is always preferable to deleting them, though you are totally within your right to do either given the circumstance.
And as was previously stated: endeavour to keep your forum-area free of non-relevant content by sending wayward threads to the OT forum, patch related posts to the Editing/Mods/Patches forum, and so forth.

Note: There is a behind the scenes "staff forum" to help the Moderators and Admins coordinate site business, you can contact TosaInu about that and he'll send you the direct link to the forum along with access password. Generally it is a good idea not to mention the staff forum to the other patrons because I find that they tend to get uneasy if they think that there is something going on that they are not a part of + don't post anything irrelevant in the staff form either.

Andres has also made a very eloquent post on this topic in the past.

I know it's not satisfying and I know it sounds "company"-like and all that.

I understand you love Louis and his contributions. Heck, I miss his posts too.

It's just that it has been .Org policy for years not to discuss sanctions in public without the consent of the member involved. I've always seen and understood that rule as a form of courtesy and respect toward the member who broke the rules. Everybody deserves a new chance. Plenty of people have gotten plenty of chances. Louis deserves that too.

If Louis wants to come back with a WT thread to discuss what happened in public, then that's fine and things will be discussed in public; with his approval and the chance for him to give his version and interpretation. However, if Louis wants to let this rest and come back once all the dust has settled, in a more discrete way, with a few witty posts here and there, then that's fine too. If he prefers not to come back at all, then that's less fine, but not much we can do about it.

If I'm now going to discuss with non involved parties, in public, the details of what happened, then that would be very unfair towards him. First because, like everybody else here, he deserves the courtesy and respect not to make private stuff public; secondly, because he wouldn't have a chance to give his version if I made everything public in his absence; thirdly, who says he wants it to be made public?

You want it to be public knowledge, but it's not your call. Nor mine. Louis is the only one who is entitled to decide if this story should be made public or not.

If Louis wants to come back, he's more than welcome. There will be no grudges, no bad feelings, no ill will. It's sad that it had to happen, but it doesn't mean he's no longer welcome here. On the contrary. He'll be welcomed back with open arms and a pat on the back, as far as I'm concerned. Let that be clear.

But if, when and how he comes back, is his decision and his choice. It's not up to us (you nor me) to decide for him if, how or when he comes back.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Read Prole's post. The only detail omitted is that a rather big part of the .Org staff (mostly those not involved in the backroom) were just waiting for an opportunity and ACIN delivered it to them on a silver platter. Louis and Banquo left and Adrian followed suit after learning the reasons of their decision.

Yep, I was the big troll for wanting Louis to apologize for using a gay slur and I enabled a faction of the mods to dump all over Louis. Thus, I caused the downfall of the backroom. The reason most people blame me is because they still thought I was trolling, when the reality is that I was making contributions for a while at that point. I don't blame people for thinking that and I don't want to incite people, but I want it known the anger was genuine although I should not have gotten so worked up about it. If you don't believe me when I say I was being genuine, look up my reaction to Vuk three years ago when he made some terrible statements about gays.

[Strike For The South]

We clearly remain as intractable as we were 3 years ago. Lucky for most of you I am paitent man.

[Beskar]

We clearly remain as intractable as we were 3 years ago. Lucky for most of you I am paitent man.

Out of curiosity, what do you hope can be achieved and what do you think there is to make this so?

Unfortunateness of Louis going missing is that it is self-exile, and we cannot force him to return. There is no place for a hatchet to go, other than to be buried.

[Strike For The South]

I like a good roll in the mud. It's part of my winning personality. Louis was my best internet friend, I'm nothing if not loyal.

not to mention the level of discourse has plummeted and the banter is at an all time low. Need to spice things up.

i was perfectly happy celebrating a decade here with a tacit nod to an all old friend. I did not bring up the incident but I will not stand by and let history be rewritten

[Husar]

I like a good roll in the mud. It's part of my winning personality. Louis was my best internet friend, I'm nothing if not loyal.

not to mention the level of discourse has plummeted and the banter is at an all time low. Need to spice things up.

i was perfectly happy celebrating a decade here with a tacit nod to an all old friend. I did not bring up the incident but I will not stand by and let history be rewritten

What history is being rewritten and why can you not stay in contact with Louis?
Even if he does not want to come back here, there are other ways to stay in contact.

The only detail omitted is that a rather big part of the .Org staff (mostly those not involved in the backroom) were just waiting for an opportunity and ACIN delivered it to them on a silver platter. Louis and Banquo left and Adrian followed suit after learning the reasons of their decision.

Oh, there it is, rewriting history.
Banquo decided to leave IIRC, it made me very sad.
So what were the reasons of their decision? I am almost sure that Louis told some members his side of the story, but I can only guess what exactly that was as they don't seem to want to disclose any of it either....

[Beskar]

I just discovered I was erroneous in some of my views, so some of my previous posts were inaccurate. Apologies for that and removing.

[Gilrandir]

There was a conflict in terms of rules. Should we allow mods to say things members are not allowed to say or should we allow it because it was a joke? In the first case the members would complain that mods have special rights in terms of speech and in the letter case, members could insult eachother and then claim it was a joke.

"Letter" means "a message", "latter" - the last of the mentioned.

Sorry, couldn't help it. But why should I be sorry? After your "than vs then" correction, I feel entitiled to correct you in kind.

[Husar]

"Letter" means "a message", "latter" - the last of the mentioned.

Sorry, couldn't help it. But why should I be sorry? After your "than vs then" correction, I feel entitiled to correct you in kind.

I am aware of this, it was a typo and you are absolutely correct.
Thank you for pointing it out.

[Sarmatian]

Oh, there it is, rewriting history.
Banquo decided to leave IIRC, it made me very sad.
So what were the reasons of their decision? I am almost sure that Louis told some members his side of the story, but I can only guess what exactly that was as they don't seem to want to disclose any of it either....

Why should it be disclosed? I can respect privacy, too.

On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum.

"A muslim fag" was just a convenient excuse. We've left far worse things go unpunished. Could have Louis acted differently? Possibly, but then he wouldn't be Louis. And it wasn't just him. Adrian and Banquo, too. Those three were definitely amongst our most intelligent posters. I'm sure you remember those days, back when we used to discuss different things around here, before it deteriorated to 94th version of "why muslims suck" and "gunbortion" 97th version.

[Beskar]

On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum

I am going to clear something up. Moderators wouldn't have known what transpired as it was an administration decision which they are not privy to. They only know that Louis was de-greened and put 1+1 together, something that I did myself and so did the rest of the board. I only discovered last night the administration decision behind the action, but the only way to know what was said for sure is to break in a Louis and Ser Clegane's accounts to read PMs to confirm it. This is an action I don't find suitable nor I am willing to make.

The reasons Louis left are private to himself. For some people, Louis-gate is enough of a reason, the idea the Frenchman wouldn't lie low, waving his flag in a foolish, but heroic manner, before being struck down. It has that romantic appeal. But I can assure everyone there is no conspiracy, there was no 'backstabbing' and the reasons Louis left are unrelated to BQ.

If you have specific concerns, feel free to message me and I will address them.

[whyidie]

Louis was not banned from the Org, his choice to leave was his free will and isn't/hasn't been barred from coming back at anytime.

Thats really all there is to it then. Added a lot of colour to the forums, wasn't suited for moderation, sad he went, but ultimately he chose to go.

...and congrats on reaching the decade mark!

[Viking]

Can't say I feel the nostalgia some do, but it's always lame when interesting voices go silent for whatever reason. As far as debates go, diversity is a must.

Also, '05-ers ftw.

Ive done basically a 180 on most issues so... great success! Now give me another eight years here and Im sure I will have done a full 360.

I wouldn't be too surprised, such a cycle makes sense in some contexts: uninformed position 1 → better informed position 2 → even better informed position 1. It's a matter of switching to gradually better and more informed arguments, which can take one on any kind of path; all depending on the arguments one started out with and the new arguments one is exposed to.

[Husar]

Why should it be disclosed? I can respect privacy, too.

Didn't you ask us to make the Keep threads public? It's a bit like asking to make someone's PMs public.

On the other hand, you know perfectly well what transpired. You were a moderator back then and had access to private moderator forum.

I would like to know what you think transpired because I have a suspicion that what you think is not what I know about.
Or maybe just see below.

"A muslim fag" was just a convenient excuse. We've left far worse things go unpunished. Could have Louis acted differently? Possibly, but then he wouldn't be Louis.

As Beskar said, I do not know for sure what ultimately led to the decision to demote Louis, but I have a very strong suspicion that the things the trolls were concerned about were a minor reason at best and not really sufficient to reach such a decision. What I can perhaps tell you is that the vast majority of Moderators who disagreed with Louis' public statements did NOT want to see him demoted for those comments. A correction, perhaps even an apology, yes, but a demotion was NOT wanted. That it came to be one anyway was most likely because of Louis' reaction(s) to the whole affair but I cannot know this for sure either.

[Fragony]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQMoFWfFPzQ

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here are threads related to Louis-gate.

BQ complaining one
Initial Thread
The Louis post in question.
One of the later Louis topics

There are a few deleted posts, and a few threads by Louis with creative titles involving a certain word. But that should cover the jist.

Edit: For context, the Org was very strict back then on words. I myself received an infraction for using the word 'Damn'.

Well, two of those are threads where everyone says how great BG is/was.

Also - where the hell was I in all this?

I mean, I remember it happening but I apparently wasn't involved?

[InsaneApache]

Banquo had nothing to do with Louis leaving. I'll leave it at that.

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

[Gilrandir]

Also - where the hell was I in all this?

Perhaps posting in the drunk thread?

[Kagemusha]

My opinion has not changed from what i had to say back then when this was an issue, both at public forum and staff forum. I think Louis was going through a tough period in his life because of some things that happened in his personal life and that projected into his behavior also here in Org. At that point some people did not give him any leeway he deserved and many of us including myself have got in the past from the Org Administration and the rest is history.

The whole affair can be seen from several point of views, but the end result remains. We lost a good patron and his contributions and to me that is bad thing for all of us who populate this forum.

[Sarmatian]

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

It didn't have anything to do directly, but they both left for the same reason. And Adrian then left because Banquo informed him why he left.

Both suffered abuse from other moderators and administrators, mostly from those rarely involved in off-topic part of the forum, and both decided they had enough. Some of it was public, some of it happened in the moderator's forum, and some through PM's.

Didn't you ask us to make the Keep threads public? It's a bit like asking to make someone's PMs public.

I asked to allow us plebs to see the relevant discussion(s) that went on in the moderator private forum. I didn't ask to see private messages.

[GeneralHankerchief]

It didn't have anything to do directly, but they both left for the same reason. And Adrian then left because Banquo informed him why he left.

Both suffered abuse from other moderators and administrators, mostly from those rarely involved in off-topic part of the forum, and both decided they had enough. Some of it was public, some of it happened in the moderator's forum, and some through PM's.



I asked to allow us plebs to see the relevant discussion(s) that went on in the moderator private forum. I didn't ask to see private messages.

"I am confident enough in my knowledge of what happened in discussions I was not privy to to publicly recount them"

"I want to see transcripts of what happened in staff discussion so as to better understand what happened"

Pick one.

[Kralizec]

This.

I was in PM contact with Louis all through the farce and it was the rank hypocrisy that decided it was enough for him.

From what Louis told me at the time, I understand that Banquo stepped down as a mod for related reasons. My previous post was mostly directed at Kadagar's theory that Banquo was somehow responsible for Louis' departure.

I've never heard about Adrian's departure being related.

[Sarmatian]

"I am confident enough in my knowledge of what happened in discussions I was not privy to to publicly recount them"

"I want to see transcripts of what happened in staff discussion so as to better understand what happened"

Pick one.

I'm confident enough in my knowledge of what happened. I'm also tired of the mantra how everything was fine and dandy and those two inexplicably decided to leave, leaving the rest of the staff aghast and surprised because of the unprovoked move. And now everyone wants them back.

[GeneralHankerchief]

I'm confident enough in my knowledge of what happened. I'm also tired of the mantra how everything was fine and dandy and those two inexplicably decided to leave, leaving the rest of the staff aghast and surprised because of the unprovoked move. And now everyone wants them back.

Then your confidence is misplaced.

I'm going to make an assumption, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your perceived knowledge of what happened came directly from private messaging with Louis.

I know this is difficult to do considering the party involved and his relationship to you and this forum, but if you examine the source from a nonbiased perspective, as a historian would do, then it doesn't quite hold up to increased scrutiny.

Assuming your best source is Louis, you're getting a primary source, which is obviously very valuable when examining the greater picture, but only as a part of the whole and not as a standalone. Assuming Louis was contacting you as the entire thing was reaching its later stages, or even somewhat after that, you have to take into account the fact that he wouldn't have any incentive to provide a detached, dispassionate account of what was going on. He would be venting to his friends. As would all of us.

It's why I'm getting a little twigged at all these cries of "slander" from all of those whose sources are presumably Louis and what happened in the Watchtower threads at the time; they're presumably all originating from one single source. From someone else's point of view, it could easily be turned around and I could say the same thing to those who are directing it as a kind of dolchstoßlegende against staff at the time. Slander is a matter of perception.

The alternative to this is that you and others received leaks of what was discussed in staff forums directly from Louis or someone else, in which case the leaker would be in gross violation of the moderator code of conduct we all agreed to and which Beskar posted earlier in the thread.

[Brenus]

"I've never heard about Adrian's departure being related." As much I remember Adrian never intend to stay. He was a journalist making inquiries about forums.
As Louis is concerned, I don#'t remember a thing. Was there, then gone, as the other French I don't remember his avatar... Yes, he was a good opponent/ally and I regret him. But life sometimes takes path which leads out of internet.

I was just killed on line because my wife insisted I had to empty the bin... And it couldn't WAIT!!!!

[Sarmatian]

Then your confidence is misplaced.

I'm going to make an assumption, and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, that your perceived knowledge of what happened came directly from private messaging with Louis.

I know this is difficult to do considering the party involved and his relationship to you and this forum, but if you examine the source from a nonbiased perspective, as a historian would do, then it doesn't quite hold up to increased scrutiny.

Assuming your best source is Louis, you're getting a primary source, which is obviously very valuable when examining the greater picture, but only as a part of the whole and not as a standalone. Assuming Louis was contacting you as the entire thing was reaching its later stages, or even somewhat after that, you have to take into account the fact that he wouldn't have any incentive to provide a detached, dispassionate account of what was going on. He would be venting to his friends. As would all of us.

It's why I'm getting a little twigged at all these cries of "slander" from all of those whose sources are presumably Louis and what happened in the Watchtower threads at the time; they're presumably all originating from one single source. From someone else's point of view, it could easily be turned around and I could say the same thing to those who are directing it as a kind of dolchstoßlegende against staff at the time. Slander is a matter of perception.

The alternative to this is that you and others received leaks of what was discussed in staff forums directly from Louis or someone else, in which case the leaker would be in gross violation of the moderator code of conduct we all agreed to and which Beskar posted earlier in the thread.

This is exactly the bullshit I'm sick of. For the record, I didn't exchange a single PM with Louis. I've learned about from PM with those who were in contact with Louis. So, I don't even have a single primary source. Several secondary sources at best. Also, I didn't have a bromance with Louis like Strike did. We exchanged a few jokes over the years, but by and large, we were talking only in the backroom and monastery. I didn't even know what was going on until I noticed that Louis simply isn't posting anymore, and I found out only recently that it's all related to BG and Adrian leaving.

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

And now everyone is going "ooh, we miss him" and "we maybe shouldn't have done that", even those who actively trolled him, together with those who refused to get involved or simply just joined the majority.

I dare say, the loss of those three members is the primary reason why the backroom deteriorated so much.

I was just killed on line because my wife insisted I had to empty the bin... And it couldn't WAIT!!!!

That's an emergency. The trash, if left unchecked, can threaten Gotham City.

[Beskar]

BUT, I don't really need any of that to understand what was going on. Two years later, one of the guys who trolled Louis and demanded a public punishment, ACIN, called another member "slut" in jest. You could try and look for a lifetime for such a perfect equivalence. No one batted an eye. When I pointed it out, Andres' explanation was "well, we're not as strict now".

There are dozens of examples before and since, and it appears we became "strict" for just a short period of time, to demand of Louis to repent his wicked ways and apologize, and after he was gone, we returned to "not so strict" ways. Screw that.

Further we look in the past, stricter things were.

For example, you used to post at least 10 times in the Entrance Hall before you could post anywhere else, after you have been 'approved'.
Then there was the Junior Member system where you couldn't edit your posts and restricted in where you could post. The edit part was a little painful for me, as I am a sucker for constantly tweaking posts, that whole 'oh, I should include this, or reword that' once you left the room sensation.
The Backroom used to be a sealed off fortress where you had to be vetted before you could even read it.
I acquired infractions for using the term 'Damn', I got a warning for calling another member 'sillybilly' when it was said in jest, as it was classed as a personal attack.
This is how strict it was, thus, by comparison, Louis's not even getting a post edit for saying 'muslim fag' was used as an argument of hypocrisy.

Suggesting it was strict for a few minutes to somehow bump Louis off is fantasy.