IMMIGRATION thread

[Montmorency]

Population growth is unsustainable in the long run. At some point, it has to stop and stabilise at realistic numbers. Importing people is just pushing the issue further into the future.

It also frees up resources in the countries the migrants left behind, potentially sustaining or even increasing the already high population growth there; in sum pushing the Earth even closer to its global population capacity.

If there weren't enough resources, these countries wouldn't have a growing population in the first place - they'd all starve to death.

It's like if you have two islands with one population each of deers. One population has 0 net growth, while the other has a strong growth. The growth of the second population could have gone on until there became too many of them, and there was not enough food to sustain more growth. Alternatively, we could continuously move some of the surplus of the second population to the island of the first, and gradually both islands would become overpopulated, even if the transferred deers adopt the zero-growth reproduction pattern of the original natives.

Does it really need to be explained at this point why this kind of assertion is so weak and incomplete? Humans have much better resource multipliers than other creatures, so the only real limit to the human population on the Earth is an administrative one.

The real problem is that unlimited growth, under disparate sovereignties, is unsustainable, because continuous improvements in living conditions and ICT factors across all populations is unsustainable.

We should be concerned by your example of the carrying capacity of deer on the islands, then, in the sense that it highlights the fragility of the current international and civilizational order. We can't roll so well with the punches anymore (the bigger they are, the harder they fall of course), with the post-war era having been predicated on the stabilizing effect of economic interdependence. Human catastrophes like Syria and Haiti are par for the course, and if the interest is long-term sustainability then learning to calmly and effectively react to situations in which millions are dying or stand to die is necessary - but this cuts against modern humanist goals. Humanists see infinite expansion of humanity into the future, and so take any 'cullings' very personally. At the same time, they take the position that death and suffering ought to be assuaged everywhere, but death and suffering, on small or large scales, is essential to the condition of living ecology rather than a "tragic" setback to the anthropic imperial project.

In other words, because the order is so brittle and the "free market" actively works against development and contingency for recurring disruptions (that kill large proportions of the population), combinations of social unrest, economic weakness, and poor environmental conditions will inevitably lead to either mass migrations or the collapse of global markets in favor of armed conflict between coordinated strategic blocs.

[Gilrandir]

If you mean keeping the refugees out of Britain, to a large extent it seems realistic unless we give them a lot of boats to swarm you with.
How should the Greeks and Italians go about it?

Towing back all boats to where they came from.

[Snowhobbit]

Targeting children for beatings to send a political "message" isn't different enough from slitting throats on a Libyan beach to send a political "message" to make me think well of them. Of course, one is less at risk from a "hulking" 12-year-old, so I suppose that inspires bravery.

While it is indeed a shame to have these men roaming the streets to "exact justice", and fortunately they were arrested before anything disastrous happened. It is however a major issue that we have "children" of north African origin roaming the streets of central Stockholm, a stone's throw away from Parliament and the PM's residence, selling drugs, robbing people and sexually assaulting women. They often claim to be very young in order to not be prosecuted etc. Once medical age checks are done by the courts it is often shown that these "children" are in fact grown men. Unfortunately Morocco and Algeria for some reason don't want these career criminals to go back home, and so refuse to take them if the "kids" arn't carrying proper ID.

It should also be mentioned that a gang of 10-20 immigrants decided to descend upon a central Metro station wearing robber masks and wielding batons, lashing out at the regular people using the metro to travel. Police showed up with 10 cars and made the arrests while wielding drawn semi-automatics, rather than the usual service pistol. Once police have established order, they simply disperse the kids, as "no crime has been comitted". So apparently it is not illegal to cover your face in public (it is), it is not illegal to intimidate (it is), it is not illegal to wield weapons (it is illegal to run around with batons) in public, if you are belonging to the right group.

There is something rotten in Sweden, and the Government authorities really need to start acting like they care, or I'm sure we will sadly have more vigilante mobs, before all hell breaks loose. At least we can deploy the army now if needed, to assist the civil forces.

[Snowhobbit]

You focus more on whether there was a child in there than on the event itself. Hundreds of adult males attacked and beaten up people, without provocation. It wasn't spontaneus, it wasn't random.

Last time it happened, you declared that a million people should be barred entry and sent home. What are we supposed to do now?

Which event are you referring to that had hundreds of adults going and beating up people? Because it was not hundreds in Stockholm (then the police would have had far more problems subduing them).

[Sarmatian]

Which event are you referring to that had hundreds of adults going and beating up people? Because it was not hundreds in Stockholm (then the police would have had far more problems subduing them).

That's what the article said.

[Snowhobbit]

That's what the article said.

It is true that there were roughly one or two hundred men present. One person punched an officer (and got arrested for that), a handful of people were kindly driven off to a different location to disperse them, and a small number of people were charged for carrying knives in public. No person of immigrant origin (or any other than the police officer) was reported as having been assaulted. They handed out fliers stating that the illegal street urchins/men would be "getting what is coming to them" etc, basically inciting violence. Now, if police had not interfered it is likely something horrible would have happened. But it didn't.

[Myth]

Well, that's equality for you. The police, which was impotent and could not protect women from assault and rape, can't protect immigrant kids from unjustified violence.

There was a story recently where an algerian 14 year old stabbed a scandinavian girl. So yeah, there's shite on both ends of the diaper.

[Myth]

Towing back all boats to where they came from.

No, just build more Ships of the Line of coruse.

[Snowhobbit]

Well, that's equality for you. The police, which was impotent and could not protect women from assault and rape, can't protect immigrant kids from unjustified violence.

There was a story recently where an algerian 14 year old stabbed a scandinavian girl. So yeah, there's shite on both ends of the diaper.

What is the basis for this? Where are the police reports of immigrants being beaten up? The police were fully able to establish order and arrest the worst perpetrators (unlike in the Metro, where 3 strikes of illegality lead to no charges being pressed).

Stabbings is not even half of what these "immigrant kids" have been engaged in. The targets of this attempted mob justice have a lot more on their conscience than mere stabbings...

[Myth]

What is the basis for this? Where are the police reports of immigrants being beaten up? The police were fully able to establish order and arrest the worst perpetrators (unlike in the Metro, where 3 strikes of illegality lead to no charges being pressed).

Stabbings is not even half of what these "immigrant kids" have been engaged in. The targets of this attempted mob justice have a lot more on their conscience than mere stabbings...

Shh, don't let the others hear you. You'll be called a racist islamophobe bigot nazi alien zombie.

[Snowhobbit]

Shh, don't let the others hear you. You'll be called a racist islamophobe bigot nazi alien zombie.

I dunno, our PM managed to call SD right-wing rather than brown fascists-nazies. Not that I am card-carrying or inclined to vote SD for now, there are more serious parties with better policies on immigration/integration, not to mention every other area where SD is rather weak.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'll just collate some posts first.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a6843451.html

It seems that those who are outraged by immigrants have decided that they themselves should be dealing with the problem... by putting on masks and beating up refugee children.

Whilst it seems acceptable to point fingers at incidents which go against the grain of our society by those deemed 'outsiders', things are always shushed when we have a look at the natives acting like the barbaric animals they can be.

I don't think acts of violence are isolated into groups labelled as being on the "outside".

Looks like PVC has earned an "I told you so":

Are you certain they were children-children and not primitives in their 30s claiming to be 12? If it's the latter type of "children" (I understand they are quite common in Sweden), I'm really glad they got into physical contact with someone of their own size and strength.

There is indeed a large problem in Sweden where young men claim to be minors, this entitles them to extra benefits and more importantly to bring their whole family to Sweden.

Some context:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35444173

Swden now officially has a worse gender imbalance than China.

Some more general woes of Sweden and immigration.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35425735

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35451080

This was predictable - after the mass-sexual assault in Germany and elsewhere the stabbing of a single young woman who was there to help the migrants was the spark of a pile of tinder, oily, greasy tinder.

The Swedes are losing faith in their government because the government is less interested in them than in an ideological mission to help the "unfortunate", a mission that is now causing suffering for the native Swedes that actually vote and pay taxes.

If the Swedish authorities don't deal with the migrant problem then this is going to get worse. That's not to say the 100 masked men aren't horrible people but for every masked man there are probably ten other Swedes who let him get away with it by, for example, not tipping off the Police.

Beskar is wrong to compare these thugs to the immigrants though, the immigrants do what they do out of a sense of entitlement - the violence against aid workers because they aren't getting what they want fast enough, the sex attacks because they want to grope pretty Germanic women.

These thugs did what they did out of fear - it's a completely different impulse.

[Myth]

Correction, fear would not be it. If "fight or flight" is taken into account, this would be righteous rage and fury.

[Snowhobbit]

This was predictable - after the mass-sexual assault in Germany and elsewhere the stabbing of a single young woman who was there to help the migrants was the spark of a pile of tinder, oily, greasy tinder.

The Swedes are losing faith in their government because the government is less interested in them than in an ideological mission to help the "unfortunate", a mission that is now causing suffering for the native Swedes that actually vote and pay taxes.

If the Swedish authorities don't deal with the migrant problem then this is going to get worse. That's not to say the 100 masked men aren't horrible people but for every masked man there are probably ten other Swedes who let him get away with it by, for example, not tipping off the Police.

Beskar is wrong to compare these thugs to the immigrants though, the immigrants do what they do out of a sense of entitlement - the violence against aid workers because they aren't getting what they want fast enough, the sex attacks because they want to grope pretty Germanic women.

These thugs did what they did out of fear - it's a completely different impulse.

First off, the caretaker worker was stabbed because she interfered in the attempted murder of another of the residents of the asylum home.

It is true that our authorities are failing to deal with the issues, primarily because they are hamstrung by our ruling politicians. I can assure you that there would not even be a thousand residents of Stockholm who would let these man run amok in the streets without alerting the police. They are thugs however and are not acting out of fear. These men have never been under threat from the street urchins. They are acting because they believe (wrongly) that it is the right thing to do, and given their history as football hooligans (united from all 3 clubs in Stockholm) they are no strangers to using violence not only as a means to solve a conflict, but also as a means to provide themselves with entertainment. Have no illusions about the "greater good" that they may claim to be trying to fight for. While it is not fear, it is not their sense of justice that called them to the street with weapons.

[Snowhobbit]

Correction, fear would not be it. If "fight or flight" is taken into account, this would be righteous rage and fury.

There is nothing righteous about what happened on that weekend, other than the arrest of the would be mob.

[Husar]

@hussie, Beskar's thread is about mindless violence against immigrants, which I deeply disaprove. This one about the consequences of just letting everybody in. There is no inconsistancy

Inconsistencies in your heart my friend. You want to help people in need because you have a good heart and at the same time you would rather keep them all in poverty and squalor outside the walls of Babylon.

Towing back all boats to where they came from.

Where did they come from?

No, just build more Ships of the Line of coruse.

To ship them to Europe safely?

[Snowhobbit]

Where did they come from?

In the case of Greece, they came from Turkey. In the case of Italy they mostly come from Libya.

[Husar]

In the case of Greece, they came from Turkey. In the case of Italy they mostly come from Libya.

Why are they coming from our allies? Will Libya accept all of them based on "we assume they mostly came from here"? What if Libya gives them new boats right away? Who is responsible in Libya anyway? What about the ones who already landed?

[Pannonian]

Why are they coming from our allies? Will Libya accept all of them based on "we assume they mostly came from here"? What if Libya gives them new boats right away? Who is responsible in Libya anyway? What about the ones who already landed?

And this is why toppling Gaddafi was such a stupid decision.

[Snowhobbit]

Why are they coming from our allies? Will Libya accept all of them based on "we assume they mostly came from here"? What if Libya gives them new boats right away? Who is responsible in Libya anyway? What about the ones who already landed?

Yes, what motive does Turkey have to offload their refugees on the EU? Have they been getting any juicy rewards in recent negotiations perhaps? Does Turkey maybe act in their own self-interest?
Libya, or at least the areas from where the refugees depart, are largely lawless and the smugglers pay protection money to ISIS. The ones who have already landed should have their application processed and if they are granted asylum should be spread around EU as economy and ability to integrate dictates.

And henceforth going with the current suggestion by the EU chair-country would be beneficial to all parties.

[Gilrandir]

pretty Germanic women.

Oxymoron?

[Gilrandir]

Where did they come from?

Doesn't matter. Wherever it is - just ship'em back.

[Pannonian]

Oxymoron?

Just look at this pulchritude.



Blonde Germanic beauty in all its glory. The girl's not bad either.

[Sarmatian]

the stabbing of a single young woman who was there to help the migrants

Funny thing, it the case of the Swedish girl who was murdered, is that she is a second generation immigrant from Lebanon. There just a dozens of morals in that story, and everyone can pick the one they like.

[Snowhobbit]

Funny thing, it the case of the Swedish girl who was murdered, is that she is a second generation immigrant from Lebanon. There just a dozens of morals in that story, and everyone can pick the one they like.

We can find a plethora of victims from all manner of groups you want to divide society into with regards to crime from certain groups. Immigrants are overrepresented both as perpetrators and victims when it comes to severe crime in Sweden. Very few blonde girls are victims of "honour" killings for instance. Victims of rape will have a different setup of course.
The fact that we have calls to separate our asylum shelters between Muslims and Christians, and I'm sure soon Sunni and Shia might have escaped notice on the forums. That we greet returning ISIS fighters with open arms and fast-tracks into jobs and housing is sure to help too...

[Fragony]

Funny thing, it the case of the Swedish girl who was murdered, is that she is a second generation immigrant from Lebanon. There just a dozens of morals in that story, and everyone can pick the one they like.

Or avoid what they don't they don't. I didn't know that but she was an immigrant herself but why take that into consideration if it happened on Swedish soil. I saw his picture, he is not 15. He is not Somalian either. Not going to bet any of my nuts on it but I'm pretty sure. Showed pic to Somalian mate and he is sure as well.

[Beskar]

Funny thing, it the case of the Swedish girl who was murdered, is that she is a second generation immigrant from Lebanon. There just a dozens of morals in that story, and everyone can pick the one they like.

Are you suggesting that she is not classed as an immigrant because it suits certain 'media' people read, to paint the picture of innocent blonde haired white Swedes being preyed in the streets, and that otherwise, she is just another immigrant as spun by those same 'media' outlets?

[Snowhobbit]

Or avoid what they don't they don't. I didn't know that but she was an immigrant herself but why take that into consideration if it happened on Swedish soil. I saw his picture, he is not 15. He is not Somalian either. Not going to bet any of my nuts on it but I'm pretty sure. Showed pic to Somalian mate and he is sure as well.

He spoke Somali very well according to the translator. But yes he is definitely not 15, the system just incentivizes him to lie about his age.

Are you suggesting that she is not classed as an immigrant because it suits certain 'media' people read, to paint the picture of innocent blonde haired white Swedes being preyed in the streets, and that otherwise, she is just another immigrant as spun by those same 'media' outlets?

Are you suggesting it is good that the police was refusing to deal with sexual assaults due to the perpetrators belonging to a group which would lead to gains by a certain political party?

She was born and raised in Sweden and spoke Swedish, fully integrated into society, even graduating from a uni.
What does it take for you to view someone with roots in immigration to be viewed as Swedish?

[Viking]

How large would the drop in unwanted behavior be and how large would it be for other measures? And where do morals come into the equation? What would be the impact on Greece, Italy and surrounding countries? What the impact on those people stranded somewhere in the middle of winter? Would it be okay to let a few thousand people freeze to death because it's simple? What exactly are we talking about? Is this a what-if about us having kept the borders closed or are we talking about sending everybody who came back to somewhere else? And where to? What if the other country does not want them?



So it was the what-if after all? Okay, then, what should we have done and how nice would it be now then?

Part of the reason so many travel to Europe is that they know they might get accepted here. They could have travelled to China or Kazakhstan, but they won't - because they don't expect to be accepted there. Once people are not let into Europe, fewer will come, because it is likely to be a waste of time, anyway.

They don't necessarily have to be sent back (which would rely on the goodwill or agreement with destination countries), we could just place them in closed interment camps that are only marginally better than the ones in e.g. Lebanon. This, too, would reduce the desire to travel to Europe.

This could be a one-time investment with significant pay-off; unlike a lot of other things you might do in order to decrease the amount of anti-social behaviour.

Yes, it will continue to grow. That is the point. It will continue to grow because the population is living longer and subsequently gets older. Short of killing them at the age of 70, the only other option is to balance it by importing more youth.

It would continue to grow because of continued immigration. The largest post-WWII cohorts are expected die off well before the year 2100.

If that is able to start mass protests, imagine what could happen after a more serious social upheaval.

Again, that's France. Upheaval in France is a result of how that country is governed, and does not have to translate directly to other countries.

Generally speaking, most social upheaval tends to come from the younger generations, not the older ones. With a decreasing younger fraction of the population, the country could just as well become more stable.

We're so far off a hypothetical global limit that it is absurd to even contemplate it.

Disagree.

In the next part you mix up economic conditions of an area and food production. I'm not going to bother responding.

I never said it would be ideal. The point is that there are jobs refugees could do, some right away, some with a little training, some with more training. They wouldn't be a perpetual drain.

But a lot of them may end up unemployed or in low-paying jobs, potentially creating a new underclass of people along ethnic lines (which does not bode well for stability, cf. above).

It has nothing to do with refugees, though.

Given enough refugees, it will.

It will happen, even if you never accept a single Muslim ever again.

Not necessarily. Many places in Europe has had a near-static ethnic composition for more than a thousand years.

That is irrelevant and nonsensical. Let's say all of them, a 100%. Now you've got a result, what you're gonna do with it? Deduce that a 100% of Muslims in Europe are terrorist?

Congratulations, you're now a proud owner of a piece of information that is completely accurate and useless at the same time.

This relates directly to your claim that it is safer for Europe (in terms of terrorism) to accept a large amount of migrants from Muslim countries rather than letting them stay there.

This claim appears to be directly odds with the ratio of Islamist terrorists with European citizenship to those without. The attacks are coming from within, not outside countries.

Man, Greyblades is starting to make more sense than you.

Stay classy.

[Beskar]

...we could just place them in closed interment camps...

Do people not realise that 'immigrants' are actually people?