IMMIGRATION thread

[Kadagar_AV]

A blog on the internet, versus a major journalistic publication, i wonder who to trust ... wait a minute.

First thing I could find in English... It links you on to sources as well, so I don't see the problem.

The 55 zones where the police has lost control was an official report from the police, and it was run in most media here... Follow the links.

That's a policing problem/badly implemented immigration/policing policy.
Might have something to do with Swedish people not being very welcoming as well.
http://www.swedensucks.com/antisocial-culture.html

Yes, of course it's Swedens fault...

We just accept more than anyone else in Europe, we give them free apartments and money from the state if they dont get a job... They have free health and dental care, they get full education... We let them keep their religion and have free classes to learn Swedish...


OH THE HORROR!!!! I SEE IT NOW!!!

No wonder they are pissed at us and want revenge on the society that gave them shelter from a war.



That was the most absurd thing I have read yet on these boards... Sig worthy material, right there.

[Leet Eriksson]

The stats are from BRÅ... www.bra.se

They are Swedens official crime center for statistics. Official enough?

Feel free to cross reference, the site is also in English and you will find the numbers are correct.



Feel free to cross reference.

Funny how that works now, please prove your claims, i'm not the one making the claim.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

A blog on the internet, versus a major journalistic publication, i wonder who to trust ... wait a minute.

Original Source - http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel...a-gangens-makt

According to Swedish Wikipedia it's a Scientific Journal published ten times a year run by a Non-Profit Organisation.

Admittedly I'm running this through Google translate with a little Medieval-English-Fu but I see no indication the original article is from a hack publication and it appears to be talking about what Kad is describing, grenades and all.

Addendum - you'll note the above is a Swedish source talking about Sweden whilst your source is an American one talking about Europe generally.

That's a policing problem/badly implemented immigration/policing policy.
Might have something to do with Swedish people not being very welcoming as well.
http://www.swedensucks.com/antisocial-culture.html

Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Ok, now you are just being stupid.


You want me to prove that the official Swedish organization to handle these statistics, can act as proof?



What else would you recommend?

[Leet Eriksson]

Original Source - http://fof.se/tidning/2015/5/artikel...a-gangens-makt

According to Swedish Wikipedia it's a Scientific Journal published ten times a year run by a Non-Profit Organisation.

Admittedly I'm running this through Google translate with a little Medieval-English-Fu but I see no indication the original article is from a hack publication and it appears to be talking about what Kad is describing, grenades and all.

Addendum - you'll note the above is a Swedish source talking about Sweden whilst your source is an American one talking about Europe generally.



Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

Do you mean the link you just posted? because his english link was definitely some sort of biased blog. Also the bloomberg article is interesting because it takes a stab at all of them as opposed to just Sweden.

Furthermore, the article i posted debunks the articles he posted, and it uses very clear language, calling it false.

[Leet Eriksson]

Ok, now you are just being stupid.


You want me to prove that the official Swedish organization to handle these statistics, can act as proof?



What else would you recommend?

Yes, because as stupid as it sounds, it still isn't as stupid as your claims.

Also as extra homework, why are the convictions of reported rapes very low?

[Greyblades]

[Kadagar_AV]

If anyone else have something to add, I'm all ears...

But Husar and Leel Erikson have a temp ban.

[Husar]

If anyone else have something to add, I'm all ears...

But Husar and Leel Erikson have a temp ban.

Trying to ignore the fact that you have no facts, nice try.

[Beskar]

Unfortunately, my internet decided to be terrible today and I will be surprised this is even posted.
But please refrain from the racist remarks such as using an n-word and comparing people to monkeys.

[Kadagar_AV]

Unfortunately, my internet decided to be terrible today and I will be surprised this is even posted. But please refrain from the racist remarks such as comparing people to monkeys.

Uh... Bananas was a nicer way to say penises...

I eat bananas, and I heard others do to... If you see it as racist the problem is in the eye of the beholder, I really wasn't the one making the conclusion or reference bananas = monkeys = blacks...


Feels like the moderation was more racist than anything I wrote...

[Husar]

Absolutely right - it was stupid of the Swedish government to accept so many people so quickly, allow them all to clump together and assume they would become good socialists.

Yes, it would be much better if Poland would actually behave like good catholics and take it's fair share of desperate souls, as well as some of the other xenophobic countries in Europe. That would probably result in far more manageable numbers everywhere.

No stop trolling Kad and re-state your position formally like a good Backroomer because I have no idea what you're on about at this point and if it's so simple you can do the gentlemanly thing and explain it rather than ask us to wade through seven pages. Whatever else you can say about Kad's position he's been entirely upfront about it.

Trolling Kad? He is the one repeating the same bad points every four months as though they had never been disproven. My name is not Sisyphos and for being "honest", I am not fond of repeating things over and over for someone who constantly throws veiled insults at me and combines it with veiled racism while he never provides any proof, only opinions and unsubstantiated racist garbage statements. Do you think I haven't noticed that ever since the "Africans have a lower IQ" argument was proven to be unsubstantiated racism, he replaced it with "some cultures are just HORRIBLE", which basially carries the same racist intention?

You may want to reconsider who is the troll here...I don't want to repeat the same discussion every few months and spend hours doing so, when his lack of any kind of sensible argument can also be exposed much faster. And that people can't remember anything is unfortunate, maybe that's why we always have the same discussions again and again, Im just trying to break the vicious circle...

But if you want a short repetition, we're basically crying on a very high level. Not only could we sort out our "aid" and "cooperation" that currently often exacerbates problems or even causes them, we could also put in more effort to help those who are actually in need of help.
And here in the thread we could stop assuming that everybody who arrives here is actually allowed to stay indefinitely or even to stay at all. And Im tired of the wealthy always blaming the poor. Assad was suppoted by Putin, the rebels were supplied by the CIA, who do we blame? The people who come here trying not to die. Wow, that's brave and heroic! We even come up with all kinds of assumptions on how greedy they are and that scares us because we have so much more and do not want to give them anything Surely that makes us better...

[Kadagar_AV]

Newspeak bullshit propogated by the same Swedish government that brings in the bottom of the barrel.

Immigration is fine if you have plans to turn the immigrants into countrymen.

This.

I never once had a problem with a black guy who in clear Swedish talked with me about the last hockey game while petting his dog - or similar...

But if you have 8 million Swedes, and you pump in 1,5 million foreigners from nations/cultures often completely un-synched... Without a plan what so ever of how to make it work...

Yeah, we see the results.

And we are just ACCELERATING the immigration... 127.000 people people got permanent residency and citizenship 2014... By this rate it will be another half million people the next 3-4 years.

Oh, and we still have no jobs or apartments for them... It's even so bad that Swedish young adults today are pushed out of the work/apartment market, because immigrants have so many "affirmative action" programs working for them.

[Leet Eriksson]

Uh... Bananas was a nicer way to say penises...

I eat bananas, and I heard others do to... If you see it as racist the problem is in the eye of the beholder, I really wasn't the one making the conclusion or reference bananas = monkeys = blacks...


Feels like the moderation was more racist than anything I wrote...

It wasn't about the bananas you special snowflake.

[Papewaio]

Governments without a plan for infrastructure and development is never a good scenario.

Integration is not easy but if done well is a net positive otherwise it's all pain and no gain.

[Papewaio]

Uh... Bananas was a nicer way to say penises...

I eat bananas, and I heard others do to... If you see it as racist the problem is in the eye of the beholder, I really wasn't the one making the conclusion or reference bananas = monkeys = blacks

It's either racist or you like to "eat" penis.

[Kadagar_AV]

It's either racist or you like to "eat" penis.

That seems like a very extreme way to interpret it.

[Husar]

That seems like a very extreme way to interpret it.

It was a racist statement even if you hadn't said banana. And the part before it was a racist stereotype as well.

Tell me one thing, if Swedish people are so great, why did they vote for so many governments that ruin the country?
You keep claiming that only rotten cultures ruin their countries after all...

[Fragony]

Sure all go ahead, Sweden has absolutily no problem with immigrants. Except that it does, why let facts get into your way. Feeling good about yourself is also important

[Kadagar_AV]

It was a racist statement even if you hadn't said banana. And the part before it was a racist stereotype as well.

Tell me one thing, if Swedish people are so great, why did they vote for so many governments that ruin the country?
You keep claiming that only rotten cultures ruin their countries after all...

Husar, as I already said, I won't continue discussing with you for some months, till I have seen that you can have a normal, functional discussion.

Because when you start to argue like this:

Also prove the connection between your statistic and immigration.
Then show that there are no other possible factors that could be rsponsible for the statistical increase over time.

You're just not worth my time.

[Beskar]

Sorry, the internet was dreadful in my area and it just cleared up. I don't know what is worse.. having no internet, or it being so impaired where every blue moon it works, so you keep trying to tap away at it.

Bananas was a nicer way to say penises...

It was more the use of n-word and the fact you were describing them as mindless animals. True, use of Monkey was incorrect.

Anyway, there were quite some racist statements and not simply because you said 'Banana'. If you want to talk about immigration, that is fine, I have no issues with this. If you are going to cross that line where your comments are deemed racist, then I am stepping in.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Do you mean the link you just posted? because his english link was definitely some sort of biased blog. Also the bloomberg article is interesting because it takes a stab at all of them as opposed to just Sweden.

Furthermore, the article i posted debunks the articles he posted, and it uses very clear language, calling it false.

I gave you the original article the blog was riffing off, and I gave you as much context as I could for it.

The Bloomberg article it basically Americans debating what they think about Europe - the Swedish one is about the situation in Sweden, and even running it through Google translate you can see it makes grim reading. Now, whether you think the article has enough statistics to support its main point is another question and a bit difficult to tell when running the whole thing through a computer program but it describes things common to European ghettos like an ethnically cohesive criminal class and a "wall of silence" when the Police try to investigate any crime, regardless of context.

Bear in mind that Americans will tend to imagine not just a ghetto but also endemic Urban decay. In Europe it's perfectly possible to have a ghetto where everything works and which you can actually walk through quite happily during the day, provided you're on the main streets. What Europeans - white Europeans - mean when they talk about a "ghetto" is somewhere where the writ of national law is thin because of local non-co-operation and where all the white people have sold up and left.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, it would be much better if Poland would actually behave like good catholics and take it's fair share of desperate souls, as well as some of the other xenophobic countries in Europe. That would probably result in far more manageable numbers everywhere.

Sorry, what? Would you like to list all the racist countries for us just so we can be clear?

From wehere I'm sitting most European countries don't want to take in hundreds of thousands of immigrants a year, and I don't blame them because it's not manageable.

Trolling Kad? He is the one repeating the same bad points every four months as though they had never been disproven. My name is not Sisyphos and for being "honest", I am not fond of repeating things over and over for someone who constantly throws veiled insults at me and combines it with veiled racism while he never provides any proof, only opinions and unsubstantiated racist garbage statements. Do you think I haven't noticed that ever since the "Africans have a lower IQ" argument was proven to be unsubstantiated racism, he replaced it with "some cultures are just HORRIBLE", which basially carries the same racist intention?

Kad does tend to repeat himself, but his arguments have developed. He's gone from "I don't want them here" to "I don't want them here but I want to make their country better".

Also, not all his arguments are "bad" at all. While it's inflamatory to say we should "sink the boats before they leave" he's basically correct that these boats are deathtraps and if we blokaded the ports they were coming from we'd ruin the people trafficers and we'd no longer have thousands of man women and children dying in the Med every month. You haven't suggested an alternative to a blockade to stop the boats and we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

As for Kad being racist, no he's not. Is he prejudiced, oh hell yes, excessively, but that's a product of his life experience and he's hardly a single voice in Europe these days. If you don't think that killing your daughter for having a boyfriend and wanting to live her own life is horrible and basically evil then I have no sympathy for your perspective. It is a FACT that certain African and Middle Eastern cultures, which are predominantly Muslim, practice this. They also practice female genital mutilation and forced marriage which is basically family-condoned rape.

Kad finds these people disgusting and he wants nothing of their cultures, neither do I, and that does not make us racist. Racist would be seeing these people as "unevolved" or their culture as "underdeveloped" when neither is true. These people are just as intelligent as us and their cultures are just as rich and complex - and part of that rich culture is the disgusting things mentioned above.

Now, as I know that you're going to bring it up I'll touch briefly on Kad's somewhat unhealthy obsession with IQ tests. IQ tests were, and still largely are, designed by white people from European cultures and it is a fact that when exported to other cultures, especially African ones, that the median score is often lower than 100. This doesn't mean Africans are "stupid" or genetically inferior but it does tell you that they don't think like us - which is obvious if you look at their rich culture and the way they construct their societies - it's something Nelson Mandela discussed in one of the early chapters of his autobiography and he even tacitly acknowledged that the African forms of government were poorly designed to respond to the top-down Colonial governments because they king required absolute consensus before he could do anything.

You may want to reconsider who is the troll here...I don't want to repeat the same discussion every few months and spend hours doing so, when his lack of any kind of sensible argument can also be exposed much faster. And that people can't remember anything is unfortunate, maybe that's why we always have the same discussions again and again, Im just trying to break the vicious circle...

"Go back and read what I wrote before" is a classic troll-tactic as opposed to "go back and read what I wrote in post #75" which is not.

I'm not sure it's malicious but you're far from coherent in the Ukraine threads and I personally feel that the lazy moderating style of the Backroom has caused you to develop bad habits.

But if you want a short repetition, we're basically crying on a very high level. Not only could we sort out our "aid" and "cooperation" that currently often exacerbates problems or even causes them, we could also put in more effort to help those who are actually in need of help.
And here in the thread we could stop assuming that everybody who arrives here is actually allowed to stay indefinitely or even to stay at all. And Im tired of the wealthy always blaming the poor. Assad was suppoted by Putin, the rebels were supplied by the CIA, who do we blame? The people who come here trying not to die. Wow, that's brave and heroic! We even come up with all kinds of assumptions on how greedy they are and that scares us because we have so much more and do not want to give them anything Surely that makes us better...

That's not a poor summation of the problem, but you're not offering any real solutions. We have tried "sorting out" our aid and co-operation but it's not that easy, we co-operated with the moderate secular opposition to Gaddaffi when the Libyan Civil War broke out to try to get out ahead of the Islamists and that actually worked, but then Russia and China prevented us from doing the same in Syria which eroded all the good will in the Arab world we had just built up and then Islamic State became the answer to Tyranny - meanwhile the secular moderates in Libya were unable to hold back the various tribes there and now that country has basically been split in two in a sort of internal Cold War.

Let me pose you a specific question - Greece had 50,000 immigrants from the Middle East last month, many coming via Turkey, how do we stop that because Greece can't cope with those numbers for any sustained period.

[Kadagar_AV]

Thank you PVC :)

Very well written.


About my idea to sink the boats... I don't see why it would be so inflammatory? I of course in no way suggest sinking boats out at sea with people in them... What I of course mean is to set up a smaller intelligence operation to find out what ships/boats are to ferry immigrants the next day, and during the night put some well placed holes in them.

When the smugglers start to lose their boats without getting the money for "safe" passage (and I mean "safe" in a very, very sarcastic way), they will cease with that method.

The reason why I want to sink them is the same as you said:

we DO need to stop them, as close to home port as possible.

Can't get any closer than what I suggest... It would also directly hit the smugglers before the people pay...

As it is now, we just have a system that keep the smugglers motivated to continue flooding Europe while risking peoples lives.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Aren't you supposed to leave behind an indication of what he said so that it doesn't look like everyone is just ganging up on Kad?

I applaud you sudden stirring of a need to actually moderate, I hope you have many more, but if Kad is actually being racist his friends should have some indication of what he said so that they can cuff him around the ear for it.

[Kadagar_AV]

Aren't you supposed to leave behind an indication of what he said so that it doesn't look like everyone is just ganging up on Kad?

I applaud you sudden stirring of a need to actually moderate, I hope you have many more, but if Kad is actually being racist his friends should have some indication of what he said so that they can cuff him around the ear for it.

IIRC, there was something about how Africans from cultures where women dress as tents seem to have a hard time controlling their penises when surrounded by blonde women in miniskirts...

______________________________________________________________________________________

In a way I can understand (but still detest) why. First of all women are often seen as cattle in their home cultures... Women dressed like ours are "whores" in their eyes...

And as around 85% of Asylum seekers are men, it kind of means it's hard for them to mate in their own population group, so instead they mate with my population group by force/threat.

Also what little control functions that might have stemmed their behavior in their home nations: Family, tribal honour, and so on - is often non-existant here.


Was only yesterday that a black guy walked into a 60 year old womans backyard and signalled and then tried to force her to bend over her garden table so he could relieve himself in her...

Luckily she was able to scare him off with screams and violence.

Things like this sound absurd, but they happen increasingly often. Women just have no value in their cultures.

[Husar]

Husar, as I already said, I won't continue discussing with you for some months, till I have seen that you can have a normal, functional discussion.

Because when you start to argue like this:



You're just not worth my time.

You make a claim, I post arguments against it, you dismiss them without any evidence for your claims, and then you say I cannot debate because I ask for you to prove your claims...

That makes no sense...

Was only yesterday that a black guy walked into a 60 year old womans backyard and signalled and then tried to force her to bend over her garden table so he could relieve himself in her...

Luckily she was able to scare him off with screams and violence.

Things like this sound absurd, but they happen increasingly often. Women just have no value in their cultures.

And this means we should reject families with children or what are we to deduce from these anecdotes?

[Kadagar_AV]

Husar, again:

When you start to argue like this:

Also prove the connection between your statistic and immigration.
Then show that there are no other possible factors that could be rsponsible for the statistical increase over time.

You are just trolling (I hope, the alternative would be that you are stupid). And in either case that's not worth my time.

So sharpen your arguments or thinking, or take that I'm not interested in discussing with you.



To break it down for others:

Also prove the connection between your statistic and immigration.

Prove we are not all holograms?

Some things are impossible to prove down to the last digit, that however have nothing to do with seeing general trends. If anyone want FULL proof of anything said, the discussion will be impossible.

IE, can I PROVE that Black guy A who commited crime B did it because of cultural reasons, and not because someone slipped a drug in his drink? Nope.

Can I walk through every criminal case and directly see that culture is the reason behind it? Nope.

What we can do, is see general trends. IE, around 15% of the population committing more than 50% of the rapes.

Same goes with the build-up of the 55 No-Go zones for the Swedish police... Is it all the immigrants fault? Of course not, but the last ghetto youth center I worked at SURE had 99 people yelling ALLAHU AKBAR for ever white dude who threw stones at police cars.

Can I prove it wasn't because of the last healthcare reform or alien overmind though? Nope.

Then show that there are no other possible factors that could be rsponsible for the statistical increase over time.

There are always other factors at work, so a question like this is either pure trolling, or semi-retarded.

Can I prove that 100% of the PISA results for our schools are because of immigration? Nope, we have had reforms and stuff... With that said it sure looks like them Africans seem to struggle with their own education, while simultaneously disrupting it for the others.


To have to go through that there are NO OTHER POSSIBLE FACTORS is impossible. Again, an alien overmind at work?




A serious reply would go along the lines of: "You say it is so, but have you considered this factor". That is a BR worthy argument.

PROVE THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBLE FACTORS is pure trolling and/or idiocy.

[Husar]

Husar, again:

When you start to argue like this:



You are just trolling (I hope, the alternative would be that you are stupid). And in either case that's not worth my time.

So sharpen your arguments or thinking, or take that I'm not interested in discussing with you.

I'm not trolling, and thanks for the insult, it's funny because you're still wrong.

Prove we are not all holograms?

Some things are impossible to prove down to the last digit, that however have nothing to do with seeing general trends. If anyone want FULL proof of anything said, the discussion will be impossible.

IE, can I PROVE that Black guy A who commited crime B did it because of cultural reasons, and not because someone slipped a drug in his drink? Nope.

Can I walk through every criminal case and directly see that culture is the reason behind it? Nope.

I posted an article that claimed the increase in numbers is due to other factors such as changes in the way police statistics are kept. You have done absolutely nothing to show that the increase is only due to immigration and not due to changes in statistical methods.

You make a wild claim that you cannot back up, ignore evidence to the contrary and then call your opposition stupid...
If you say the change are only due to immigration, you have to back this up somehow other than "it is obvious to me", because that isn't proof for anything. It is possible that immigration led to more crimes being committed, but according to the only journalistic source posted so far, it's nowhere near as drastic as you claim. And instead of backing up your claim, you resort to personal attacks, an arrogant but in no way helpful approach. If I were to report or punish you every time you (indirectly) call me stupid, you might as well be permabanned. How about you start posting sources instead of insults and personal opinions?

What we can do, is see general trends. IE, around 15% of the immigrant men committing more than 50% of the rapes.

And where are these numbers coming from? Or is that impossible to show as well?
According to you it is stupid to ask whether you have any sources for these numbers...

Same goes with the build-up of the 55 No-Go zones for the Swedish police... Is it all the immigrants fault? Of course not, but the last ghetto youth center I worked at SURE had 99 people yelling ALLAHU AKBAR for ever white dude who threw stones at police cars.

Can I prove it wasn't because of the last healthcare reform or alien overmind though? Nope.

No, but I only need to take your arguments to prove that swedish culture is rotten because it ruined its own country.
And that's not trolling, that's only to highlight how silly some of your statements are.
You keep stating that rotten cultures ruin their own countries, then you say the politicians Swedes voted into office for 30 years have ruined the country, obviously Swedish culture must be rotten because the people don't know what's good for the country.

Your arguments, not mine...

There are always other factors at work, so a question like this is either pure trolling, or semi-retarded.

Another insult?
Good argument...or should I thank you for your honesty?

To have to go through that there are NO OTHER POSSIBLE FACTORS is impossible. Again, an alien overmind at work?

You could be creative and prove that there is any kind of link in the first place. The reason I wanted you to prove the absence of other factors was that you dismissed the article that listed several other factors. You cannot just dismiss it without providing anything to back up your dismissal other than your personal opinion.
Instead you post a long tirade about how stupid I am, this is very bad form and it gets very tiring in the long run.

A serious reply would go along the lines of: "You say it is so, but have you considered this factor". That is a BR worthy argument.

PROVE THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBLE FACTORS is pure trolling and/or idiocy.

Your insults are hardly BR-worthy either, I suggest you start by working on them and posting actual sources instead of replying with your typical "trolling or idiot" to everything I say, which is not helpful. If I were trolling you, it would be because you constantly insult me.

[Leet Eriksson]

Is it everytime you are faced with a call out you either call them trolls or stupid? If you can't back your claims with actual evidence, or the fact the swedish government is ruining its own country then you are practically for all intents and purposes either deluded or extremely dense and fed trash.