IMMIGRATION thread

[Kadagar_AV]

I wasn't the one you were replying to, that was Idaho. And besides that I just thought you made a silly comment, I wasn't trying to argue your point.

Oooooooooooops

[Fragony]

Leftist people don't have to click, you can't see it it will never reach your mental hardisc so don't bother. For the rest, second video.

http://www.geenstijl.nl/mt/archieven....html#comments

refugees...

[Fragony]

http://www.civitas.org.uk/crime/crim...ecdjan2012.pdf

Actually Australia is the rape capital of the world according to these statistics.
Why are Germany and the Netherlands so low? I thought they also accept too many immigrants?
Canada and Japan never saw any immigrants, very low rape rates. Apparently Eastern Europe is perfectly safe for women as well, they hardly accept immigrants.
Germany, Netherlands and Switzerland prove that a superior host culture can decrease rapes despite high immigration.
There is a lot we can learn here.

Why are the cases of robbery so low in Sweden if the immigrants want all the money? Given the assault rate they probably just want to beat up the natives for fun. That's pretty mean indeed. And Sweden is way too low on the punitive scale. The US are much, much harsher, a success proven by being only number 4 in rape rate.

Most immigrants in the Netherlands and Germany are fom Marocco and Turkey, Marrocans aren't exactly a succes story, but it could be much much worse, and it is, especially in Sweden. The worse the better seems to be the mantra, the aid/cuddle industry legions have to eat as well

To make it slightly pretentious

There is something rotten in Sweden.
A cause a cause, my kingdom for a cause!

Shakespear always impresses.

[Beskar]

Europe must open official channels for migrants - UN
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34049512

Why is EU struggling with migrants and asylum ?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24583286

Interesting articles which is on topic.

[Gilrandir]

*yes, I should have sourced the OP better, it was lazy of me, with that said, am I really known to draw numbers from my behind?*

You haven't said anything about the statistics shown.
For example why Australia has a higher statistic, do so many Africans arrive there?
Why do some other countries have far lower statistics?

It's because you have lost credibility with me and I wont be bothered with what you write or source till someone else brings it up as something to note?

Kadagar, I believe your arguments would seem weightier if you also gave crime statistics against the chronological frame (as you did in the first post for Sweden) of a country close by which in, say, 1975 had approximately the same number of rapes (say, Norway or Denmark) but which later on pursued a different immigration policy.

[rory_20_uk]

For all intents there are an infinite number of persons who can come from Africa - large families ensure that populations can increase by million er year.

Migrants will head to places with a better quality of life until the destination doesn't offer an increased quality of life. There could be several mechanisms for this - either overcrowding and loss of resource per capita (relatively open borders) or with prevention or the perceived risk is to high to chance it (relatively closed borders).

There is no right approach of course - merely what future one wants. Currently Europe is dealing with the years of idealism where all the Nasty people on the other side of the Med and now the misery is a lot closer.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

One notes that the BBC is still calling them refugees but the UN calls them migrants - which highlights the crucial point that most of these people aren't interested in going home.

So, we need to make their homes more attractive - if they're so intent on living in Europe maybe Europe should just run the Middle East?

I'm not seriously suggesting the EU try to recreate Pax Romanum but it's the logical conclusion of the immigrants' own thinking - they are coming from the Old African and Levantine provinces into the European ones. Clearly - they want to be like us, they want working roads and sewers and expensive, pointless, public buildings and a society run by an apathetic elite - they want to be MORE ROMAN.

[InsaneApache]

they want to be MORE ROMAN.

Well you asked for it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAdHEwiAy8

[rory_20_uk]

One notes that the BBC is still calling them refugees but the UN calls them migrants - which highlights the crucial point that most of these people aren't interested in going home.

So, we need to make their homes more attractive - if they're so intent on living in Europe maybe Europe should just run the Middle East?

I'm not seriously suggesting the EU try to recreate Pax Romanum but it's the logical conclusion of the immigrants' own thinking - they are coming from the Old African and Levantine provinces into the European ones. Clearly - they want to be like us, they want working roads and sewers and expensive, pointless, public buildings and a society run by an apathetic elite - they want to be MORE ROMAN.

And this has often been a problem in parts of Europe for the last c. 50 years. Immigrants want in essence their own country to be economically prosperous with good infrastructure and since it isn't they'll recreate that elsewhere. They would rather stay where they are and do not really want to be part of the new country they find themselves.

[Fragony]

Attachment 16104
"Refugees"

also, these "refugees" would have been safe in turkey or Greece or Hungary, or Saudi arbia for that matter. Then pray tell why they are flocking to Sweden Germany and the U.K.

Simple questjon simple answer, things are easier there for them. Once they made it there they are in for all the free money. 400 in the UK, more in Sweden.

[Husar]

Attachment 16104
"Refugees"

also, these "refugees" would have been safe in turkey or Greece or Hungary, or Saudi arbia for that matter. Then pray tell why they are flocking to Sweden Germany and the U.K.

They are even safer in Germany, there are even rumors that Greece and possibly Italy give them money to pay for the travels to other countries as they don't want all of them to stay. Not to forget that the EU does not want to them to flock to just two southern countries, it's called solidarity. Turkey is incredibly selfish anyway as we could see with them bombing our kurdish allies first chace they got, wouldn't be surprised if they also happily lend them a hand to have fewer camps on their own turf.

Research has also shown that refugees also prefer countries with existing refugee networks of their countrymen, compare it to exchange students typically hanging out a lot with other exchange students because it is easier, sounds like typical human behavior then, no?
In Germany they get less money than an unemployed German on Hartz IV, and Germans complain a lot that Hartz IV is not enough to live, can't be such a paradise then, yet we take a whole lot of refugees who actually want to come here. They are also not allowed to work for at least three months and can't get a work permit if a German is ready to take the same job. So if they're just coming to steal our jobs or for the abundant money, they may be in for a surprise, and yet they keep coming.

Apparently in Sweden they get a room in the Hilton and in the UK they get 1000 pounds a day for each baby or something, but many of them still stay in Germany with the Nazi-like rules for some reason. Oh and as long as their sttus is unclear, they get no money at all here, they have to live in camps and have to order food and other things from the authorities up to a certain budget. Thre was a hunger strike in one of these camps because they weren't quite fond of these luxurious conditions. But yeah, we're being too nice to them, actual concentration camps would probably be more suitable.

[Husar]

Just saw this, the german government called in the army to deal with the refugee crisis, finally!

Finally they are doing something!



Luxurious tents are too luxurious though I assume. Everybody will want to have one now.

[rory_20_uk]

Many immigrants appear to be indignant that they are not allowed to go where they like - cries that they "are not animals" heard when overloaded facilities break - scant gratitude for y'know, not being shot at and whatnot.

If they really do think that there is practically a concierge waiting from them to help them to their new house and job is it any surprise that they're coming over? There have been many migrant streams through the ages that were caused in essence by the people involved being misled.

[InsaneApache]

it's called solidarity

Aw man you crack me up with your wicked sense of humour!

[Husar]

Many immigrants appear to be indignant that they are not allowed to go where they like - cries that they "are not animals" heard when overloaded facilities break - scant gratitude for y'know, not being shot at and whatnot.

If they really do think that there is practically a concierge waiting from them to help them to their new house and job is it any surprise that they're coming over? There have been many migrant streams through the ages that were caused in essence by the people involved being misled.

Given that the local population in Greece and Italy often tries to help them and the camps are actually overloaded because the governments there can't or don't want to bring them to the mainland fast enough, I would be careful with judging it from afar. If they are kept in horrible conditions on purpose, "well, at least we don't kill them..." is a very low standard for people who claim to have the moral high ground.
Not to forget that the villagers whose places they land in often seem to agree and to help them as much as they can, they can probably judge the situation better than someone who looks at a few pictures on the internet.

[rory_20_uk]

I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.

The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.

The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.

[Husar]

I do not claim to have nor want to have the "moral high ground" which invariably is a state of self delusion - are starving masses a new problem or merely one that has finally come to the shores of Europe? Those who are so quick to pity them have not been giving most of their disposable income to charities - and in fact few if any still have.

That might be a good argument if charities were the ideal solution.
Quite a few people try to stop supporting the causes for war in these regions however.
IMO charities are just a bandaid when proper solutions have already failed.

As for the age of the problem, see it as a stonger reminder that we did and still do cause problems and that having human rights does not just mean your right to use a smartphone.

The governments of Greece and Italy are pretty poor at the best of times and given that the standard they should have is better than where they've come from is the whole point of being a refugee since they are fleeing a situation where they are likely to die. Sorting the logistics of 30,000 on an island right on Turkey's doorstep is no easy feat at the best of times - and as you say these persons have hardy arrived via established channels.

Yes, but you basically seem to say that living in a small cage is better than dying so they should be thankful of the cage, at least they can now turn around their own axis alive. I'd call that a serious lack of compassion, but then again you've always seemed rather cold, so maybe we'll just have to disagree there as I'd treat them as human beings and not as cattle in a small cage just because it means they're not getting shot anymore. By spreading them out into more countries and locations you can treat them better, integration works better and so on. And while it may not be easy to get them off the islands for the countries involved, other countries could help. If we can give Greece billions of Euros, we can also lend them a ship or two.

The locals do help them. And as always wanting to think of oneself as giving and wonderful rather palls when all those people remain and it starts impacting on one's livelihood and future. Rather than room sharing with these people it appears special trains are laid on to ensure that the problem is passed on as soon as humanly possible.

What else should they do? See how many fit onto the island until the first people inevitably drop off the edges? Put them into even tighter containment camps?
As for room sharing, I've never demanded that, but:
http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/28555/
https://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/129893
http://www.refugees-welcome.net

[Montmorency]

The refugee question is so difficult that it cannot be simplified to a mere contest between compassion and expedience.

The problem is so difficult precisely because international bodies have so little power as such.

Individual countries cannot develop effective policies for managing, averting, or diverting refugee migrations, because it becomes a matter of international security in which all countries affected are trying to impose the least burden on themselves as everyone else will let them get away with.

Thus, each country's response boils down to "do nothing". The refugees keep coming in, piecemeal hotfixes are applied inconsistently - until the kettle boils over, governments just don't have leverage to apply systematic policies.

You might notice some parallels with banking/finance regulation and the 2008 crisis...

[Montmorency]

, I don't know - Refugee Cap & Trade?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The refugee question is so difficult that it cannot be simplified to a mere contest between compassion and expedience.

The problem is so difficult precisely because international bodies have so little power as such.

Individual countries cannot develop effective policies for managing, averting, or diverting refugee migrations, because it becomes a matter of international security in which all countries affected are trying to impose the least burden on themselves as everyone else will let them get away with.

Thus, each country's response boils down to "do nothing". The refugees keep coming in, piecemeal hotfixes are applied inconsistently - until the kettle boils over, governments just don't have leverage to apply systematic policies.

You might notice some parallels with banking/finance regulation and the 2008 crisis...

Me, I'm seeing parallels with Total War: Attila.

Apparently Europe is expected to receive 100,000 migrants this month who will try to claim refugee status. Assume an average of half that a month and you get 600,000, which is already fewer than Germany is expecting this year. Now suppose this continues for another three years, bearing in mind that Europe already has a large number of immigrants from outside the EU - the UK alone has a population which is 13% foriegn born.

The key point is that, whatever you believe, this isn't sustainable unless you're willing to accept systemic collapse on a regional level in some countries, first in Italy and Greece, then in the likes of Germany and Sweden. Sweden has already taken in so many immigrants that the law runs thin in some areas, the UK has already become a major recruiting ground for IS...

I have a horrible fealing we are actually approaching that horrible event horizon when things genuinely slide out of our control and nobody knows what will happen then.

[Fragony]

A lot of violence against immigrants in Germany lately, mostly in the old eastern-part

[Viking]

A lot of violence against immigrants in Germany lately, mostly in the old eastern-part

I am sure Husar will agree with me that we must blame it on the suppression their recent ancestors experienced under the DDR. We cannot give them responsibility for what they do themselves, that would be inconsiderate.

[Husar]

I am sure Husar will agree with me that we must blame it on the suppression their recent ancestors experienced under the DDR. We cannot give them responsibility for what they do themselves, that would be inconsiderate.

Indeed, the DDR did not want to talk about the Nazi past as a similarly suppressive regime itself, as a result, such nationalist tendencies were allowed to prosper and not talked about, not engaged with and the myths not disspelled. Additionally, the DDR was still using machinery from 1945 in 1990, which didn't really help with the unemployment rate once it entered the real world, the socio-economic conditions these people grew up under were not exactly ideal. And then the local politicians also did not do quite enough to change this. There is some progress but obviously some people are still stuck in the stupid. Their leaders can usually be blamed for it as they are often rather intelligent and know exactl what they do and how to manipulate those unfortunate souls of lower intelligence and with a fitting socio-economic background that makes them vulnerable to such ideals and manipulation.

The latest tactics revolve around pretending not to be Neo-Nazis at first and recruiting easily impressable school children already, under the disguise of being some cool youth groups where people are friends and support eachother. There was a documentary from Poland that showed how it worked on a girl there.
Once in the scene it is also hard to get out due to the fear of violence by you "friends" should you "betray" them.

[Beskar]

Germans keep giving aid to refugees from Syria, Police ask them to stop as they got too much.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-10481522.html

[wooly_mammoth]

I really cannot understand these people and why they feel the need to feed the "we came here to get free stuff" mentality that I've seen in many interviews with the refugees.

[Husar]

I really cannot understand these people and why they feel the need to feed the "we came here to get free stuff" mentality that I've seen in many interviews with the refugees.

Compassion is the term you are looking for.
And your guess as to their mentality is just your guess, maybe the people who actually talk to them and deal with them, such as the police, actually do have a better idea about their mentality.

[Husar]

http://www.heute-show.de/ZDF/artikel...ungskultur.php

Bavarian ministress of social issues greets a refugee (roughly translated):

"Okay, are you housed well here?"
"Yes, it's fine."
"But you know that you have to go back, right?"

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

http://www.heute-show.de/ZDF/artikel...ungskultur.php

Bavarian ministress of social issues greets a refugee (roughly translated):

"Okay, are you housed well here?"
"Yes, it's fine."
"But you know that you have to go back, right?"

Ha!

Sell her the bridge.

Meanwhile, migrants protest in Budapest at being stuck in Hungary

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34128263

Refugees my foot.

[Fragony]

Compassion is the term you are looking for.
And your guess as to their mentality is just your guess, maybe the people who actually talk to them and deal with them, such as the police, actually do have a better idea about their mentality.

They literally say that. But it's nice of you that you are willing to share your house with them. Or wasn't that what you meant

[Viking]

Meanwhile, migrants protest in Budapest at being stuck in Hungary

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34128263

Refugees my foot.

As if to underscore the point, there are even Syrian migrants crossing into Norway via the Russo-Norwegian border, which is located north of the polar circle. They've more or less travelled from beyond the southernmost parts of Europe to the northernmost parts.

They might as well travel all the way to Svalbard, no visa requirements for settling there..

Everyone may, in principle, travel to Svalbard, and foreign nationals do not need a visa or a work or residence permit from Norwegian authorities in order to settle in Svalbard.

http://www.emb-norway.or.th/studywor.../#.Vedx0_mqpBc
http://www.sysselmannen.no/en/Visito...and-residence/