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Thread: Gameroom policy discussion thread

  1. #61
    kumquattor Member Riedquat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Well... I'm still a bit angered to be honest, all originated with my mistake!

    To me always has been crystal clear, what's written in red or green by a staff member is the law, you abide by them and/or carry the matter privately.

    I only disagree with GH in how he managed the situation, he didn't need to drop from the game, a single pm saying drop it or I'll bann you could have solved all the issue!
    returning to the shadows.....

  2. #62
    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riedquat View Post
    Well... I'm still a bit angered to be honest, all originated with my mistake!

    To me always has been crystal clear, what's written in red or green by a staff member is the law, you abide by them and/or carry the matter privately.

    I only disagree with GH in how he managed the situation, he didn't need to drop from the game, a single pm saying drop it or I'll bann you could have solved all the issue!
    Nonsense. You made a mistake posting at night, but that means nothing by itself. Most of us have done stuff that required some effort from a mod at some point, and this was a fairly harmless example - it's not like you were flaming other players or anything, you just made a mistake. It was the reactions and accusations that resulted from it that caused the issue. Now, I can't speak for GH himself, but as a former mod, I would have done the same in his shoes re - dropping from the game. This is honestly one of the things we've generally never had issues with in the GR, so I was personally flummoxed that this even became a thing. Still, it was good to clarify this in the sticky.
    It is better to conquer yourself than to win a thousand battles. Then, the victory is yours. It cannot be taken from you, not by angels or by demons, heaven or hell.

  3. #63
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riedquat View Post
    Well... I'm still a bit angered to be honest, all originated with my mistake!

    To me always has been crystal clear, what's written in red or green by a staff member is the law, you abide by them and/or carry the matter privately.

    I only disagree with GH in how he managed the situation, he didn't need to drop from the game, a single pm saying drop it or I'll bann you could have solved all the issue!
    khaan pretty much hit the nail on the head here. As I mentioned to you in a PM, I don't blame you for what happened in the slightest. In a perfect world, once I made my moderation action (and later reversed it on Visor's request), that would have been the end of it. It was only when people started using the action I took as a moderator to try to determine my in-game alignment - and the fact that it dominated discussion and wasn't just a one-off thing - that the wheels came off. By that point I had to sub out.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

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  4. #64
    Member Member BSmith's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    A voice from another former mod – GH did the right thing all round, and I agree that mod hat always comes first. Moderating can sometimes be a murky world of subjectiveness. “Should I act or let it pass” types of calls happen all the time. I have the utmost confidence that GH knows what side of the line he needs to be on, and when issues arise has the integrity to do the right thing.
    Always meet on the level, act by the plumb and part on the square.
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  5. #65
    Member Member novice's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BSmith View Post
    A voice from another former mod – GH did the right thing all round, and I agree that mod hat always comes first. Moderating can sometimes be a murky world of subjectiveness. “Should I act or let it pass” types of calls happen all the time. I have the utmost confidence that GH knows what side of the line he needs to be on, and when issues arise has the integrity to do the right thing.
    Subbing out was very wise.

    I don't think deleting Riedquat's post was a good idea though, I don't see what that was supposed to fix. People had already seen Riedquat's post. IMHO posting in green, and especially editing and deleting posts, should only be done if absolutely necessary.

  6. #66
    Know the dark side Senior Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by novice View Post
    Subbing out was very wise.

    I don't think deleting Riedquat's post was a good idea though, I don't see what that was supposed to fix. People had already seen Riedquat's post. IMHO posting in green, and especially editing and deleting posts, should only be done if absolutely necessary.
    I agree with this principle.

    Same time, this is a judgment call. Once a rule has been broken, moderator can pretty much deal with it as they like.

    On MU, we don't delete rulebreak posts because people will have seen it, and they will have an advantage over the players that hadn't seen it. But that's MU and we have a different and larger group of people with different expectations there.

    I fully appreciate that GH's judgment call here is his decision, I personally would advise against deleting any content that isn't flaming or porn. But since the game host asked that the material get restored, it wasn't really a problem. GH made the best call he could, and then the game host requested an alternative and GH was only too happy to comply. Not really a problem from where I sit.

    The cultural differences do basically come down to this-house-these-rules. Game hosts are free to make whatever rule they wish and enforce it as they wish, if folks don't like the way game hosts setup and host games, they don't have to play. Forum moderators likewise have all the leeway to use their own judgment, and although we can share our concerns in post, the middle of the game is a bad time to argue with the referee, as it does derail things. And, ultimately, if the moderator doesn't agree and we want a different standard, we basically have to volunteer to be moderator and do it ourselves. Otherwise, I support the guy doing the thankless job that everyone is prone to second-guessing. XD

    Running the moderator team on MU, I saw there are often differences of opinion on how we should moderate even within the team, and we already all agree pretty much completely on the rules and code of conduct. There's no manual for this stuff, and people of good conscience often disagree on the details.

    At this stage, I can only say that most of the time, there's more than one right answer. Sometimes there's a right-er answer, but we should learn to be satisfied with a decent answer, or volunteer to be a mod. XD

  7. #67
    Know the dark side Senior Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Ideally the referee shouldn't be a player, but given our small size, a guy who is referee first and player second is the next best alternative and perfectly serviceable.

    Can't let perfect get in the way of good.

  8. #68
    boom bye zack Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    I completely understand why GH deleted the post even if I don't necessarily agree with it. He also immediately restored it when the game host asked him to. GH is a great moderator and has always done a wonderful job of being able to step in when necessary as a moderator while still being involved enough in the community as a player and host so he still feels like "one of us".

  9. #69
    boom bye zack Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Askthepizzaguy View Post
    Ideally the referee shouldn't be a player, but given our small size, a guy who is referee first and player second is the next best alternative and perfectly serviceable.

    Can't let perfect get in the way of good.
    I agree that it isn't ideal, but GH is one of the few people I trust 100% to always be impartial as a moderator and never let his status in the game get in the way of that.

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  10. #70
    Member Member Sooh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Thumbs up for GH!

    I trust your integrity, even though I don't really know the issue at hand!

  11. #71
    Enormous Member Winston Hughes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Likewise. I don't know the particulars of this case, but I have complete trust in GH's integrity as a player and mod.

    That said, with players from elsewhere regularly joining games here, it's a wise move to codify the rule. It's impossible to guarantee that nobody will ever come to the mistaken conclusion that they've gained information from a mod action. But, so long as they don't actually talk about it, the potential for negative consequences is drastically reduced. Someone might end up feeling frustrated that they're unable to explain their full reasons for suspecting/clearing a player, but that situation is just like having a strong gut read: you have to go find reasons you can explain.

  12. #72
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Hi folks. Me again.

    After reviewing the posts and events of the most recent game, I don't think what happened is symptomatic of any larger issues that need to be addressed on an official level for the most part. Things got heated, but they never truly spiraled out of control. People got emotional, but for the most point they recognized that sometimes they needed to step away. This is behavior that, while I don't want to say I encourage it, I certainly won't discourage it as a response to emotions running high in the thread. Sometimes that happens, it's unavoidable, and all in all things could have gone a lot worse. Plus the tone of the postgame discussion in the thread is highly encouraging, and you all are to thank for that.

    So I guess I'll just repost a couple of points from the Rules and Reference thread as a reminder:

    2. Sportmanship. We expect players to adhere to it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sportsmanship according to Wiki
    Sportsmanship is conformance to the rules, spirit, and etiquette of sport. More grandly, it may be considered the ethos of sport. It is interesting that the motivation for sport is often an elusive element. Sportsmanship expresses an aspiration or ethos that the activity will be enjoyed for its own sake, with proper consideration for fairness, ethics, respect, and a sense of fellowship with one's competitors.
    3. Friendliness. Be nice to our new and old players. We should also strive to help new players feel welcome. Any comments perceived to be detracting from the friendly environment are particularly unwelcome.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    There is one thing not in the rules that I do want to address, however. It's the issue of profanity.

    Look, I get it. Sometimes it's cathartic. Sometimes points need to be emphasized. But sometimes it can get to be too much.

    Those of you who have been around here for a while know that we've had a long and at times tortured history with the official policy on profanity. Sometimes there was zero tolerance. Sometimes there wasn't. There was once the long and teeth-pullingly awkward process of determining exactly which words were and were not acceptable. Sitewide rules have changed with different administrators taking the reins over the years. I won't get into the specific timeline but right now there essentially *isn't* a policy for the Gameroom specifically.

    This is probably a mistake on my part, but going back to zero tolerance is probably an overcorrection, and I have no desire to go back to the Good Bad Word/Bad Bad Word list from yesteryear either. So the current (lack of a) policy will stand in the meantime.

    However.

    It is my unscientific opinion that an excessive amount of profanity is more likely to lead to a poor thread environment. It can potentially signify a lack of self-censorship, which can lead to less of a filter, which can lead to emotions running higher, etc etc etc. To go full wet blanket mode, it can be classified as a gateway drug to the stuff I do need to step in and bust heads over, such as personal attacks or other behavior that goes against what is outlined in the Rules and Reference thread.

    Which is all my mangled way of saying, no, the rules on profanity are not changing officially and nothing will be codified at this point in time. But unofficially, I am making a request as moderator to you all to please keep it to a manageable level, and never use it to refer to a specific individual or action. As always, I reserve the right to drop green text and start acting officially if I deem this imaginary line is crossed. Never forget that the : daisy : smiley () is your friend.

    Feel free to comment/lament/vent here.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.

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  13. #73
    boom bye zack Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    A lot of words to say the nothing is changing. Typical bureaucracy!

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  14. #74
    Facilitating Understanding Member Dp101's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    What is the daisy smiley meant to represent?

  15. #75
    boom bye zack Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dp101 View Post
    What is the daisy smiley meant to represent?
    censored profanity

  16. #76
    Know the dark side Senior Member Askthepizzaguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    What? This policy is total , and if I weren't such an upstanding I'd tell you s to go daisy with a fish-smelling tablecloth!

    in the alps! Son of a blackberry teakettle racecar hornswoggle with a pea soup-colored hair dryer!!!

    Pineapple tin-can sizzle bacon!

    Et cetera.

    Obviously it's fine. Nevermind the above.

  17. #77
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    There's been some talk in the queue thread about provisionally moving back to two games at once. I'm kind of ambivalent about it, so I'll throw it to you guys to see what you think.

    (Well, I'm ambivalent in the sense that if the games are scattered, i.e. signups for the second game begin around, say, D4 or D5 of the first game, it could go either way. Still strongly opposed to two games *not* being scattered.)
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  18. #78
    boom bye zack Member Zack's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    I think it's a bad idea. Maaaaaaybe if they're significantly staggered.

  19. #79
    Member Member Sooh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    I think, like Dragonmount, that this community isn't big enough at the moment for two games at the same time. I would like to reiterate the idea I had about starting sign-ups while one game is in progress, so that we can start a new one within a day or two of the previous one ending. If there are enough hosts who are able and willing, this should be possible to pull through.

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  20. #80
    syö minun šortsini Member Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion, Metal Slug Champion, Bubble Trouble Champion, Curveball Champion, Moon Patrol Champion, Zelda Champion, Minigolf Champion El Barto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Zack View Post
    I think it's a bad idea. Maaaaaaybe if they're significantly staggered.
    Define ‘significantly’, both in terms of Day/Night cycles and actual (RL) time.
    good lord| if you're telling the truth you're setting new records for scumminess as a townie -Renata on IM, 16/09/2011
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  21. #81
    Senior Member Senior Member Yeti Sports 1.5 Champion, Snowboard Slalom Champion, Monkey Jump Champion, Mosquito Kill Champion, Tontie Champion Csargo's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I think, like Dragonmount, that this community isn't big enough at the moment for two games at the same time. I would like to reiterate the idea I had about starting sign-ups while one game is in progress, so that we can start a new one within a day or two of the previous one ending. If there are enough hosts who are able and willing, this should be possible to pull through.
    I agree with this, I think it would be good to start sign-ups while a game is still ongoing, but near to completion. That wouldn't leave a significant gap between games, which I think would be a good thing. Don't think two games running simultaneously would work though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sooh View Post
    I wonder if I can make Csargo cry harder by doing everyone but his ISO.

  22. #82
    Member Member Jabbz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    So what do we think a minimum amount of time in between games should be?

  23. #83
    Member Member Sooh's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    I think that could be discussed in the sign up thread. The host could clarify that "This game won't start until _____ is done." and then people could state their preferences and/or limitations.

  24. #84
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    From the updated rules thread:

    We used to be very lax on the global "no outside contact" rule, but this has tightened up in recent years. Follow the host for exact guidelines as to what exactly you can and cannot do in a particular game - most if not all hosts will have very specific instructions on this front.
    I've marked this for over a year, that some time after the 2015 revival hosts began universally shutting down unmonitored private communications, and typically even one or both of night chat and public participation by the dead.

    I'm assuming it has to do either with off-site cultural influence or wider theoretical developments...
    Vitiate Man.

  25. #85
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Just for clarification, the new stickied thread isn't an updated rules thread so much as just a general guide for offsite players coming in so they can hopefully have an easier time adjusting. It does not supersede the Rules and Reference thread.

    But yes, you are correct in both the general trend and one of the reasons why this is the case. Is this something you - both "you" singularly, Monty, and "you" in terms of everybody - approve or disapprove of, generally?
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


  26. #86
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by GeneralHankerchief View Post
    Just for clarification, the new stickied thread isn't an updated rules thread so much as just a general guide for offsite players coming in so they can hopefully have an easier time adjusting. It does not supersede the Rules and Reference thread.

    But yes, you are correct in both the general trend and one of the reasons why this is the case. Is this something you - both "you" singularly, Monty, and "you" in terms of everybody - approve or disapprove of, generally?
    Well, it's disconcerting and a bit sad. A far cry from living players PMing dead players threats to relay to the game thread on their behalf, like in Capo. What's the story behind the new order?
    Vitiate Man.

  27. #87
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    It's kind of a combination of things. I'd say the heart of the change is two related events: First, a lot of the players that started here (or CFC, etc) have branched out and played mafia elsewhere, where more of an emphasis is placed on keeping the game self-contained. Secondly, most/all of our new arrivals nowadays also come from mafia sites elsewhere (as opposed to them being regular Orgahs who have gotten curious) and thus come in with their own expectations and standards, which are more in line with the changes you described.

    I don't want to go so far as to say that the games will not fill if we stick to the old style, "Wild West" type of environment that we saw in the monster games from years back, but I do think it's fair to say they'll have a harder time filling. Any mafia > no mafia, so we cater the wishes of the people.

    Also don't worry, when I run Pirate Ship IV next year, it'll have all of the usual outside communication and PMing backroom deals that you're used to.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.

    Member thankful for this post:

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  28. #88
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Besides its use as a network mechanic in complex games, I've enjoyed it in vanilla games where it usually has no strategic value for any alignment or individual.

    Even if I haven't used it most of the time it's been available, or even much of the time, it's fun to know that if I desired I could contact any player, not knowing if they are town or scum.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Usually it's been to my/Town's detriment.


    Come to think of it, I'm not sure, now that everyone posts 10 times a day on average, whether any place for one-on-one PMs would get muscled out or amplified.
    Vitiate Man.

  29. #89
    syö minun šortsini Member Space Invaders Champion, Asteroids Champion, Metal Slug Champion, Bubble Trouble Champion, Curveball Champion, Moon Patrol Champion, Zelda Champion, Minigolf Champion El Barto's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    I think it should be up to each game's GM.
    good lord| if you're telling the truth you're setting new records for scumminess as a townie -Renata on IM, 16/09/2011
    Feles deliberatissimae subiugare humanitiati sunt, et res solae quae eas desinunt canes sunt.
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  30. #90
    Illuminated Moderator Pogo Panic Champion, Graveyard Champion, Rally 2100 Champion, Missle Attack Champion, Ninja Kid Champion, Ninja Turtles 1 Champion, Pop-Up Killer Champion, Ratman Ralph Champion GeneralHankerchief's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gameroom policy discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by El Barto View Post
    I think it should be up to each game's GM.
    Fully concur, and I have no plans on ever instituting a blanket rule saying "all games must follow pre-approved .Org meta" or anything along those lines. The purpose of the thread was simply to give offsite players coming in a better idea of what to expect - nothing more, nothing less.
    "I'm going to die anyway, and therefore have nothing more to do except deliberately annoy Lemur." -Orb, in the chat
    "Lemur. Even if he's innocent, he's a pain; so kill him." -Ignoramus
    "I'm going to need to collect all of the rants about the guilty lemur, and put them in a pretty box with ponies and pink bows. Then I'm going to sprinkle sparkly magic dust on the box, and kiss it." -Lemur
    Mafia: Promoting peace and love since June 2006

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    At times I read back my own posts [...]. It's not always clear at first glance.


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