US Pilot achieve a whole new level of fail

[AE Bravo]

Patreus being the guy who said it's time to support "moderate" elements of Al Qaeda.

He's more Don Sterling than Kobe.

[Hooahguy]

Again, Petraeus is not the focus of this thread.

Anyways, Ive been reading that the plane in question was an AC-130 gunship. So I asked a buddy who was in the Air Force about what could have happened. Apparently AC-130 crews dont have the same rules when it comes to firing their weapons as normal planes. Where other planes have to call out individual targets to bomb, the AC-130, once they get their initial clearance on a target, can follow that target and keep engaging without clearance. Im guessing that MSF didnt mark their hospital on the roof with the markings of a hospital. Then when they got reports of Taliban in the hospital from the Afghans, they began bombing the hospital without checking that what they were shooting at. So at best this is criminal negligence. If they knew it was a hospital and fired anyways, thats a war crime.

EDIT: and because its bothering me, what Petraeus said isnt exactly a new concept. We did something very similar in Iraq with the Sons of Iraq and the Sunni Awakening. And it actually worked.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Again, Petraeus is not the focus of this thread.

Anyways, Ive been reading that the plane in question was an AC-130 gunship. So I asked a buddy who was in the Air Force about what could have happened. Apparently AC-130 crews dont have the same rules when it comes to firing their weapons as normal planes. Where other planes have to call out individual targets to bomb, the AC-130, once they get their initial clearance on a target, can follow that target and keep engaging without clearance. Im guessing that MSF didnt mark their hospital on the roof with the markings of a hospital. Then when they got reports of Taliban in the hospital from the Afghans, they began bombing the hospital without checking that what they were shooting at. So at best this is criminal negligence. If they knew it was a hospital and fired anyways, thats a war crime.

EDIT: and because its bothering me, what Petraeus said isnt exactly a new concept. We did something very similar in Iraq with the Sons of Iraq and the Sunni Awakening. And it actually worked.

.....

Told you so.

[Hooahguy]

I mean ok? I never disagreed with what you were saying in regards to this matter anyways. I simply wanted confirmation.

[Husar]

Again, Petraeus is not the focus of this thread.

Anyways, Ive been reading that the plane in question was an AC-130 gunship. So I asked a buddy who was in the Air Force about what could have happened. Apparently AC-130 crews dont have the same rules when it comes to firing their weapons as normal planes. Where other planes have to call out individual targets to bomb, the AC-130, once they get their initial clearance on a target, can follow that target and keep engaging without clearance. Im guessing that MSF didnt mark their hospital on the roof with the markings of a hospital. Then when they got reports of Taliban in the hospital from the Afghans, they began bombing the hospital without checking that what they were shooting at. So at best this is criminal negligence. If they knew it was a hospital and fired anyways, thats a war crime.

EDIT: and because its bothering me, what Petraeus said isnt exactly a new concept. We did something very similar in Iraq with the Sons of Iraq and the Sunni Awakening. And it actually worked.

That's very interesting info, but as I say below, it does not entirely explain why they did not stop unless they turn off their radios during missions.

.....

Told you so.

A broken clock is also right twice a day. I mean I don't remember you mentioning that it was an AC-130, you also blamed "the pilot", but the one pulling the trigger in an AC-130 is "a gunner" usually. And let's not pretend that the whole "they can just write some GPS-app" in any way applies to an AC-130 since that one does not use GPS-guided bombs.
Not to forget that it is still weird that the HQ did not notify them that they were shooting at a hospital after the hospital notified the HQ, unless we assume they are plain murderers and ignored the order to cease fire. Which is possible but seems a bit odd given that they should know they could hardly get away with that.

[Hooahguy]

Bear in mind, what I wrote about what my friend told me might not be what actually happened. That is just what he told me might have happened from his experience with working around the AC-130. He left the Air Force like four years ago or something so things might have changed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I mean ok? I never disagreed with what you were saying in regards to this matter anyways. I simply wanted confirmation.

Well, I wouldn't normally, but I promised.

A broken clock is also right twice a day.

Ouch.

I mean I don't remember you mentioning that it was an AC-130, you also blamed "the pilot", but the one pulling the trigger in an AC-130 is "a gunner" usually.

Well, I knew it was an AC130 a couple of days ago, or whenever that was revealed - I'm not sure that's relevant, though - I didn't say it wasn't a gunship either, just that it was human error - pilot or gunner is semantics. I suppose if it had been a Super Hornet I would have been wrong too because they have weapons operators, ditto an Apache gunship.

And let's not pretend that the whole "they can just write some GPS-app" in any way applies to an AC-130 since that one does not use GPS-guided bombs.

Oh really?

What kind of precision munition do you imagine it was?

Possibly these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Diameter_Bomb

Or these?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-176_Griffin

Maybe these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GBU-44/B_Viper_Strike

Looks like only the J and W variants carry bombs, and all the bombs designed to attack static targets like buildings use a combination of GPS and/or laser targeting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_AC-130

So, yeah, you could totally write an App for that.

Not to forget that it is still weird that the HQ did not notify them that they were shooting at a hospital after the hospital notified the HQ, unless we assume they are plain murderers and ignored the order to cease fire. Which is possible but seems a bit odd given that they should know they could hardly get away with that.

You are suggesting that MSF had not previously notified the NATO-led airforce of the hospital's location - were that the case it would already have come out by now and there's no reason to suppose MSF are lying about that, nor do they have any motive to.

[Husar]

Well, I knew it was an AC130 a couple of days ago, or whenever that was revealed - I'm not sure that's relevant, though - I didn't say it wasn't a gunship either, just that it was human error - pilot or gunner is semantics. I suppose if it had been a Super Hornet I would have been wrong too because they have weapons operators, ditto an Apache gunship.

I only heard it from Hooahguy, but then again I didn't quite chase the story.

Oh really?

What kind of precision munition do you imagine it was?

Possibly these?

[...]

So, yeah, you could totally write an App for that..

Okay, I admit/realize I was obviously not updated on the latest AC-130 upgrades, but you still don't just write an app for an airplane, at least not from all I heard about the development for such systems. Your point that they should have this is not invalid, it's just not a trivial task to make it given the integration into existing systems, security aspects, etc. Not to forget that the Air Force can't, since it's usually proprietary software from the manufacturer.

You are suggesting that MSF had not previously notified the NATO-led airforce of the hospital's location - were that the case it would already have come out by now and there's no reason to suppose MSF are lying about that, nor do they have any motive to.

My point was that from what I read, MSF got bombed, they called the US military and said "guys, you're bombing a hospital!", 30 minutes later they got bombed again. Assuming they did not call the pilot from their landline but some US military HQ, why could or did this HQ not relay this information to the aircraft within 30 minutes? Thus my assumption that there were probably more screw ups than just from the people in the air. The HQ could also have checked the hospital's claim even if the aircraft does not have an app for that.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I only heard it from Hooahguy, but then again I didn't quite chase the story.

It was on the BBC website, which is my main news source lacking a TV.

Okay, I admit/realize I was obviously not updated on the latest AC-130 upgrades, but you still don't just write an app for an airplane, at least not from all I heard about the development for such systems. Your point that they should have this is not invalid, it's just not a trivial task to make it given the integration into existing systems, security aspects, etc. Not to forget that the Air Force can't, since it's usually proprietary software from the manufacturer.

Populist language aside the point is that these planes recieve constant software upgrades and the US is big on "plug and play" software which essentially means an OS that runs separate Apps.

Your earlier jibe comparing a warplane to a smartphone is almost exactly right when we get to the F35, which using one touch screen and afaik DOES run on Linux. Older planes are a bit cruder but the fact remains that if you have GPS targeting then you have all the necessary components to build in a GPS Friendly-Fire warning system.

Bear in mind the US does this sort of thing a LOT, they have very poor target recognition skills when it comes to non-American assets, be they planes, tanks, or buildings.

I illustrated that with the point that a US general doesn't know what "Sunray" means even though a UK general would recognise the callsign "six" and UK generals even condescend to wears stars on their uniforms so that the Americans don't have to learn to read European/Commonwealth ranks.

My point was that from what I read, MSF got bombed, they called the US military and said "guys, you're bombing a hospital!", 30 minutes later they got bombed again. Assuming they did not call the pilot from their landline but some US military HQ, why could or did this HQ not relay this information to the aircraft within 30 minutes? Thus my assumption that there were probably more screw ups than just from the people in the air. The HQ could also have checked the hospital's claim even if the aircraft does not have an app for that.

And my point was that this should never have been possible and its an example of shoddy work all round and - as I predicted - it basically comes down to the guy with his finger on the trigger in the plane, and the controller on the ground who was either out taking a smoke break or just didn't bother to pick up the phone.

When I started this thread I may have been guided by rage but that rage was borne of the fact that I know enough about air support and American hardware to know that the only way this could have happened was if someone in the USAAF screwed up, and historically that's usually the guy with his finger on the trigger.

Stories of these sorts of things happening to British servicemen are legion - Warriors repeatedly strafed by A-10's, helicopters shot at by Patriot missiles WHEN THE ENEMY HAS NO AIR FORCE and Americans just generally shooting anything that isn't American.

[Hooahguy]

You do realize that friendly fire incidents are almost just as common on the British side of things as the US side? The only difference is that due to the much higher number of US planes in the air its statistically more likely that a US plane did it.

Here is a list in fact!

Also with that Patriot battery incident, there was an issue with the friend-or-foe ID system so it wasnt identified as a friendly plane.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You do realize that friendly fire incidents are almost just as common on the British side of things as the US side? The only difference is that due to the much higher number of US planes in the air its statistically more likely that a US plane did it.

Here is a list in fact!

Also with that Patriot battery incident, there was an issue with the friend-or-foe ID system so it wasnt identified as a friendly plane.

If you look at the American incidents though there are a higher proportion of American patrols spontaneously attacking allied targets - other Blue on Blue incidents either tend to happen at ground level or it's a case of close air support gone wrong. On the one hand there's missing your intended target, on the other there's mistakenly identifying friendly forces as valid targets.

[Hooahguy]

There are also many times more US soldiers in theater than British.

Of the 25 incidents listed in the Afghan war section, almost half were done by British forces or caused by British negligence.

In Iraq, of the 13 incidents listed, five were of British fault.

So this is hardly an American phenomenon.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

US Inquiry says it was the fault of the AC-130 crew who mistook the hospital for a government building.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34925237

I stand by my first assessment, poor discipline/training/briefing of aircrew.

On Wednesday, the US commander in Afghanistan, Gen John Campbell, said the investigation had found that the attack on the hospital was "the direct result of avoidable human error, compounded by process and equipment failures".

[Montmorency]

US Inquiry says it was the fault of the AC-130 crew who mistook the hospital for a government building.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-34925237

I stand by my first assessment, poor discipline/training/briefing of aircrew.

Typical flyboy stereotype?

'Requesting airstrike on enemy-occupied structure, we are pinned under sustained fire.'

- 15 minutes later, distant explosions -

'Damnit, I hope whatever they did there was at least useful.'