Terror Attack: 130 Dead in Paris

[Brenus]

"token muslim in the French cabinet " Really? Why do you assume that an Muslim woman is a token? It shows more about you than her, as you probably have no idea of her success or failure.
But of course, because she is a woman, a Muslim, she can be only a token. She was just in charge of the Justice department in France (post that you have not reach in your country yet), a very unimportant post in all states, as we all know.

"even assuming that Hollande is the type of socialist" You should first assume that Holland is socialist...

[Strike For The South]

"token muslim in the French cabinet " Really? Why do you assume that an Muslim woman is a token? It shows more about you than her, as you probably have no idea of her success or failure.
But of course, because she is a woman, a Muslim, she can be only a token. She was just in charge of the Justice department in France (post that you have not reach in your country yet), a very unimportant post in all states, as we all know.

One muslim does not change the tide of anything. It says more about you. You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration. Head. In. The. Sand.

Pfh - never said they werent proper muslims, nor did i say there was no nine year old wife. What i said about christianity is true because most forms of veneration and the god that jesus himself knew from the torah has been forgotten.

"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he killed all of humanity"

Rip peace out. Montmorency is right.

You realize he is disagreeing with you right? Do you just look at whoever writes the most words with high brow vocab and think "me and this guy agree"?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Reports are now the attackers spoke accent-less French and yet claimed solidarity in with their brothers in Syria.

But please show me the token muslim in the French cabinet again. That was totally mind blowing.

Back the iron fists, supply them weapons, and make sure the trade agreements are friendly. I don't see what else we can do. Backing the rebels only leads to fractious groups....the devil you know.

Your misguided thinking is part of what got us into this mess. We should have crushed Assad at least two years ago before IS were able to dig in and garner local recruits via Assad's brutality.

If we have to spend a century knocking down tin-pot dictators in the Middle East so that three generations of girls and boys can grow up with even a modicum of peace and form an actual civil society it will be worth it.

The problem with people today is they can only think up to the time of their own death, or perhaps the deaths of their children. We should be planning for the next two centuries at least.

Pfh - never said they werent proper muslims, nor did i say there was no nine year old wife. What i said about christianity is true because most forms of veneration and the god that jesus himself knew from the torah has been forgotten.

"Whoever kills an innocent person, it is as if he killed all of humanity"

Rip peace out. Montmorency is right.

Really?

"No mention in scripture of the prophet marrying a 9 year old girl or rolling heads for that matter. They weren't intimate until about ten years after. He served his people well and brought them a message that led to great success, made a better society. Gandhi was a racist."

You have repeatedly denigrated the Whabbi version of Islam as being a false "revivalist" movement.

You said Jesus "made war on Rome" which is absurd - he was executed to behaed one Jewish faction and placate another but there is no suggestion he opposed the Roman administration, quite the opposite. "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's"

Islam condemns those who kill the innocent - Christianity condemns killing (but loves the murderer). Notably, the Islamists believe att Westerns are guilty 0 hence it is permissible for them to be killed.

You are correct that Ghandi was a racist, at least for part of his life.

Here's what I want you to think about "Are these men barbarian monsters?"

I would say yes, regardless of ethnicity and religion.

[Strike For The South]

If we have to spend a century knocking down tin-pot dictators in the Middle East so that three generations of girls and boys can grow up with even a modicum of peace and form an actual civil society it will be worth it.

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?

Honestly, that quote could literally have been ripped from 2004. Mission accomplished! They will greet us as liberators!

[Papewaio]

Don't look to politicians for integration look to Zinedine Zidane for an example.

[AE Bravo]

Really?

I didn’t deny that he was married to a young girl. But like i said this is not mentioned in scripture (Qur’an). Again, crucifixion is for enemies of the state. Jesus was also known to see gentiles as below his people. This is fine though, I’m not knocking it at all.

You have repeatedly denigrated the Whabbi version of Islam as being a false "revivalist" movement.

Must have been a misunderstanding. Wahhabism is modified strict orthodoxy. None of the people I've met actually want the life this preaches for themselves. No sane person would.

Here's what I want you to think about "Are these men barbarian monsters?"

Absolutely yes. What did you expect me to contribute exactly? Lose-lose situation for me imo.

Listen this is a fight that we fight every day ourselves. http://heavy.com/news/2015/09/new-is...rabs-stills/2/
A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia had a cousin who was the same way, except that guy actually left and went to Syria. They are killing other Muslims in their sleep, in their mosques, and in their wedding nights. So YOU think about who the real enemy is. There is nothing I despise more than a takfiri, Muslims who feel they are entitled to more and are driven by the heavens more than their worldly obligations.

You realize he is disagreeing with you right? Do you just look at whoever writes the most words with high brow vocab and think "me and this guy agree"?

Anti-western units are reactionary movements born from the first reactionary movement. I hope what Montmorency says isn't going to happen but it will eventually. The west is not capable of stopping the "contagion," this is the duty of Arabs and Muslims.

I look at you and I see a bigot with a "brevity is the soul of wit" persona. It's quite pathetic actually. You are the only person in this thread who talks like he's at a bar rather than sincere discourse.

[Hooahguy]

Just going to remind everyone here to keep it civil, which includes holding off from personal attacks.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Just going to remind everyone here to keep it civil, which includes holding off from personal attacks.

NO, YOU!

[Strike For The South]

I look at you and I see a bigot with a "brevity is the soul of wit" persona. It's quite pathetic actually. You are the only person in this thread who talks like he's at a bar rather than sincere discourse.

My discourse is nothing if not sincere. Believe, you, me. I'm also fairly certain that you are someones alt.

I am also not a bigot. I think the way the Europe handles its immigration is the reason they are in this mess. I think the way the west handles the middle east is the reason we are in this mess. I feel bad for the refugees and the innocent muslims who are slaughtered in the name God.

However, the solution to these problems is not to import people from a different culture en masse and then hope that both of these disparate societies will stay out of each-others way while dipping into the same socialist money pool.

America is the greatest country on earth because of its immigrants. It is quite obvious that it has not always been good, or even close to good at assimilation. However, it is quite telling when a minority feels marginalized in America, he complains about not being American. In Europe they claim solidarity with people who wish their countrymen harm.

But by all means continuing educating me on my bigotry.

[Strike For The South]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I didn’t deny that he was married to a young girl. But like i said this is not mentioned in scripture (Qur’an).

You tried to dodge - you failed. You implied theire was no nine-year-old wife by omission.

Presumably you thought I didn't know enough to have the name, hoped I'd give up.

Again, crucifixion is for enemies of the state. Jesus was also known to see gentiles as below his people. This is fine though, I’m not knocking it at all.

Irrelevent - the manner of Christ's death doesn't prove anything other than the fact that he was crucified.

Must have been a misunderstanding. Wahhabism is modified strict orthodoxy. None of the people I've met actually want the life this preaches for themselves. No sane person would.

I think you need to use more words, and with more precision.

Absolutely yes. What did you expect me to contribute exactly? Lose-lose situation for me imo.

Your perspective?

Listen this is a fight that we fight every day ourselves. http://heavy.com/news/2015/09/new-is...rabs-stills/2/
A friend of mine from Saudi Arabia had a cousin who was the same way, except that guy actually left and went to Syria. They are killing other Muslims in their sleep, in their mosques, and in their wedding nights. So YOU think about who the real enemy is. There is nothing I despise more than a takfiri, Muslims who feel they are entitled to more and are driven by the heavens more than their worldly obligations.

Anti-western units are reactionary movements born from the first reactionary movement. I hope what Montmorency says isn't going to happen but it will eventually. The west is not capable of stopping the "contagion," this is the duty of Arabs and Muslims.[/QUOTE]

The last thing you said is revealing, when you conflated Arab and Muslim. A large number of the Muslim terrorists are from Morocco and Pakistan, in the latter case especially they are Muslims but emphatically not Arabs.

The problem with the opposition to radical Islam in the Middle East seems to be its inability to create an alternative narrative to the fundamentalist one You say you're "Left-Wing" but your discourse isn't really all that different to theirs, you just cut out the more extreme bits.

[Fragony]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.

Yes, you all know what I will say so I don't say anything, but I will buy you all a beer though

I lied, saying something anyway, that plumb easblock farmhorse Merkel should have been gently but firmly been escorted to a room with padded walls in a selfhugsuit years ago. It's well known that she is religiously insane

[Kagemusha]

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs, I know the person is wrong. It has been a long time since this forum has had the brain power to sustain anything that would border on interesting.

I'll take that back, I find Monty fairly interesting to read. The rest I either know what they will say or know that they are wrong.

Yes loosing maybe 5 million (Monty´s own estimate) and ruining lives of 500 million people in order to maybe get to a certain hypothetical situation, which would favor the very limited US way of dealing with enemies. Namely being able to fight them with 0 own casualties, is surely fairly interesting. At least if asked from psychologist evaluating how delusional such plan is, in its all nihilism.

But then your posts never had much to add in the "brain power" of this site in any case. Maybe you should take the example of DivinusArma and post to each Middle East topic two words: " Sheet of Glass" . That would surely be safe approach. It would suite your posting better then the high horse you currently are.

[Viking]

Where will this ground swell of democracy come from?

People wouldn't be hoping for democracy directly, but for peace, stability and prosperity. If the peace is built on subjugation, torture and death - how long do you think it will last?

People want justice and to be able to speak their minds, and if the current state of things is lacking in this regard, it will probably be unstable in the long run.

[Brenus]

"You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration." No, that is an indication of what you think is absolutely out of touch and reality.
You come up with a claim you cannot back-up with facts, so your only choice is denial or dismissal. I don't blame you for this as you don't have really other things to do.
I could have go for successful businessmen and women, or, sportsmen, or whoever, you would come back with the same "answer" from your belief.
France has the highest number of "Muslim" in Europe (excluding Turkey). Most of them are of course atheist, as the general French population. Probably because they living in horrid ghettos and apartheid...
As head in the sand, you could start to put your out of it, and look around you. You will see the world somewhere else else than in your head.

I put it back:

[Kagemusha]

My hat is off to the French. The thing is that while many people are hurting and afraid because of this senseless violence from few lunatics. France is not going to change. France is not going to turn into a police state and French people will not hover in the corner with a personal weapon for self protection. No they will not let the terrorist win and change into what the terrorist would like for them to become. They will not become victims, but live on. Hurting, with anger and sorrow, but without letting those sentiments control them.

There is a price for freedom and that price is not to live in fear. No matter how much that may cost. Once people understand that, there is no stopping freedom. Without that understanding there never can be freedom. French know and cherish this because they have had their fair share of history of oppression and i am positive that they will never again allow such to happen, not because of pressure coming from outside or within.

For the very same reason Europeans cant close their borders and shut their eyes for the events taking place at Middle East, as the reason for the masses of Asylum seekers are there and those are the very same lunatics that are behind the atrocities that are happening or already have happened at Iraq,Syria,Libya, Lebanon,Egypt and now France.

[Gilrandir]

I enjoy the many cultures that London contains, and I wouldn't want to homogenise it. But there are some positions that are antithetical to the liberal world that I love. Islamism is one.

Who will sort out the things which should stay in this unhomogenized London and which shouldn't? Who will draw the borderline between "this is alien but it's OK" and "it is so unBritish"? As I said: one has to pay some price for letting international cuisine in and hoping that all international intrusion will stop at that. Evidently dealing with the situation in the way you suggest will presuppose letting liberalism alone.

My dear, if the Islamist attack France it is because France represents all what they hate. France embraces life when they embrace death, France values liberty, they value slavery, France values equality, they value discrimination, France values Fraternity, they value racism.
France embraces science, secularism, they prefer superstition and obscurantism.
To summary it, let give me the message from a caricaturist Joann SFAR:
"Friends from the whole World, thanks you for your #pray for Paris, but we don't need more Religion! Our faith goes to music! Kisses! Life! Champagne! Joy! Paris is about life".

They value death, so they attack life

So much pathos! When I had expessed a similar one two years ago I was blamed as being too emotionally invested. Perhaps you suggest there should be another march which will show to the world that the French are... what will it show, by the way, and what has the CH one shown?

Own up to it: France's immigartion policies that created the largest islamic community of Europe is what created a fruitful soil for islamists who planted the seeds they wanted.

They blew up a plane with 224 Russians and people asked "Will Putin become more barbarian now?"

Confusing cause and consequence. FIRST Putin became barbarian by starting bombing Syria and THEN the plane was downed.

My hat is off to the French. The thing is that while many people are hurting and afraid because of this senseless violence from few lunatics. France is not going to change. France is not going to turn into a police state and French people will not hover in the corner with a personal weapon for self protection. No they will not let the terrorist win and change into what the terrorist would like for them to become. They will not become victims, but live on. Hurting, with anger and sorrow, but without letting those sentiments control them.

There is a price for freedom and that price is not to live in fear. No matter how much that may cost. Once people understand that, there is no stopping freedom. Without that understanding there never can be freedom. French know and cherish this because they have had their fair share of history of oppression and i am positive that they will never again allow such to happen, not because of pressure coming from outside or within.

For the very same reason Europeans cant close their borders and shut their eyes for the events taking place at Middle East, as the reason for the masses of Asylum seekers are there and those are the very same lunatics that are behind the atrocities that are happening or already have happened at Iraq,Syria,Libya, Lebanon,Egypt and now France.

I'm afraid, CH attack didn't teach the French (and Europeans in general) a lot. You can't live a liberal and carefree life being surrounded by barbarians. You can't live the way you did and hope such things as those in Paris to never happen (again). You gotta adopt some common sense and be more on your guard, as Israel is.

The France that we know of from history is dead. What for may the fresh (and not so fresh) immigrants value Joan of Arc, for example? Or Charles de Gaulle? It is like an ordinary Frenchman can't feel anything special about Saladin who liberated the lands of Muslims from Europeans. No good will come of admixing one culture to another.

Closing borders is the only sensible solution against the future trouble. Of course, it is not a guarantee, yet it is a step on this way. You may be as sorry for the refugees as you like, but solving problems of one person (or even a group of persons) at the expense of others will not make either happier: the first ones will cry for more and develop and deepen in the second the sense of guilt while the second will have to live with it and side by side with the newcomers as well.

[Husar]

Confusing cause and consequence. FIRST Putin became barbarian by starting bombing Syria and THEN the plane was downed.

Confusing my point with your point you are.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The problem with Islamism in Europe is that it's very hard to fight effectively. If you refuse to rise to the bait and crack down on Muslims then that makes it harder to stop these plots, if you do crack down then you create more terrorists. If you try to steer a "middle course" as the UK does then you tend to get the worst of both worlds - it's harder to stop attacks and you still end up ostracising Muslims.

Since 2001 Muslims have become much more visible in Europe - there are a lot of reports of women in their late twenties and thirties deciding to wear headscaves to show that they are Muslim, and of women who wear headscarves deciding to wear veils to more clearly show their faith. There has been a fair amount written about this and their have been quite a few documentaries. One thing that crops up a lot is that the change in dress is often as much performative as pious, the woman in question doesn't feel it makes her a better Muslim so much as she feels a need to show her faith more clearly to non-Muslims.

What this means is that people who were integrated are actually choosing to de-integrate and be ostracised from their own society (they are overwhelmingly second or third generation, or converts).

This is, frankly, a huge problem.

This is one of the reasons why I have argued for a consistent policy on the Middle East - the radically different approaches to Libya and Syria have convinced many at home and abroad that it was "all about the oil" when in fact it largely wasn't. European leaders were moved to support what they saw as a relatively liberal grass-roots revolt against a brutal and insane dictator.

Then, when the Syrians rose up because they believed we would support them too we sat about and wrung our hands about UN resolutions and did little or nothing. As a result the liberal opposition and the mass of people in Syria felt "betrayed" something that was reported in multiple interviews with the early resistence conducted by Western journalists. So now the Syrians were in a fight and had been turned off to the West and Western ideals and then along came IS who creamed off the angry young men and filled the void in fighting the regime.

At the same time Libya fell apart at least partially because of what happened in Syria - without NATO as this great arbiter of holy wrath who dropped fire from the sky the more Right-Wing sections in Libya no longer felt the need to co-operate in forming a government and things unravelled. At the same time the success of IS in Syria and Iraq has emboldened other Islamists and they are attracting adherents across the world - first in the Middle East and now cells in Europe.

So, short term, I say build a Limes to control the flow of people into Europe and fight the Islamists and the tin-pot dictators wherever we find them. Long term, finish weaning ourselves off Saudi oil and then offer them a choice - reform and religious liberalisation or an end to the alliance with the West and Western military hardware.

[lars573]

My discourse is nothing if not sincere. Believe, you, me. I'm also fairly certain that you are someones alt.

I am also not a bigot. I think the way the Europe handles its immigration is the reason they are in this mess. I think the way the west handles the middle east is the reason we are in this mess. I feel bad for the refugees and the innocent muslims who are slaughtered in the name God.

However, the solution to these problems is not to import people from a different culture en masse and then hope that both of these disparate societies will stay out of each-others way while dipping into the same socialist money pool.

America is the greatest country on earth because of its immigrants. It is quite obvious that it has not always been good, or even close to good at assimilation. However, it is quite telling when a minority feels marginalized in America, he complains about not being American. In Europe they claim solidarity with people who wish their countrymen harm.

But by all means continuing educating me on my bigotry.

I agree that Europe has a problem with integration. But I wouldn't hold up North America as some kind of shining example. Our integration of immigrants works on a multi-generational schedule. Which pretty much writes off the first two generations of new arrivals. They'll never fully integrate. But the 3rd generation is the one that's mostly integrated. Yes I'm not using assimilated because Canada doesn't ask that.

[AE Bravo]

Keep it short guys, just to conform to the overinflated sense of self worth.

You implied theire was no nine-year-old wife by omission.

No.

Irrelevent - the manner of Christ's death doesn't prove anything other than the fact that he was crucified.

Crucifixion is a sentence reserved for enemies of the state.

You say I'm "breathtakingly" ignorant but you yourself show equal ignorance towards Islam.

The problem with the opposition to radical Islam in the Middle East seems to be its inability to create an alternative narrative to the fundamentalist one You say you're "Left-Wing" but your discourse isn't really all that different to theirs, you just cut out the more extreme bits.

Currently there's an arms race across the ME for counterterrorism and domestic unrest. How's that for narrative. How is my discourse similar to theirs? In your radical world all Muslims are extreme judging from your first post in this thread. Just stop talking, it's a truly ridiculous thing to say.

Also brevity is the soul of wit. If a post on this site is longer than a few paragraphs...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Must've struck a nerve. You've put a lot of effort this time kid.

[Brenus]

"So much pathos! When I had expessed a similar one two years ago I was blamed as being too emotionally invested. Perhaps you suggest there should be another march which will show to the world that the French are... what will it show, by the way, and what has the CH one shown?" I was waiting for this... I am not disappointed.

If you can't find the answer, sorry, I can't fill your emptiness.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

No.

Yep

You said "There's nothing in Scripture about Muhammed having a 9-year old wife" instead of "The Haddiths disagree on how old Aisha was when they consummated the relationship".

Crucifixion is a sentence reserved for enemies of the state.

The fact that Jesus was innocent of the charges is a central plank of Christianity.

He said "render unto Caesar what is Caesar's". Jesus was not, in his own lifetime, a very important or influential man.

You say I'm "breathtakingly" ignorant but you yourself show equal ignorance towards Islam.

Well, let's see - the main plank of Islam is that Christian and Jewish scripture is wrong so God sent the Angel Gabriel to Muhammed to reveal the correct way to worship God and live one's life and the revalations Gabriel gave to Muhammed are the writings contained within the Koran alongside a biography of the Prophet himself.

How'm I doing?

Let's see...

According to Islam Muslims are descended from from Ishmael, Abraham's son by his slave Hagar (but in the Islamic tradition he marries Hagar) and God then commands Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away and, unlike the Jewish tradition, Abraham remains in contact with his son and eventually they (re)build the Kaaba. This story is the basis for the Muslim claim to be "original" monotheists rather than a Jewish or Christian offshoots.

I also know that Muslims, unlike Christians, generally believe that heaven will only exist after Judgement Day and, as I recall, Muslims do not believe in Hell - just that those found wanting will be cast into a pit of fire. I confess I don't precisely understand how Muslims are supposed to get to Heaven but from my reading I understand that, again contrary to Christianity, a Muslim's deed are judged on a balance against a feather. I'm not sure if that's supposed to mean that all Muslims are meant to fail, or if it's actually a very heavy metaphorical feather.

All of this is very different to Christianity or Judaism.

Currently there's an arms race across the ME for counterterrorism and domestic unrest. How's that for narrative. How is my discourse similar to theirs? In your radical world all Muslims are extreme judging from your first post in this thread. Just stop talking, it's a truly ridiculous thing to say.

My radical world? In Christian terms I'm about as boring, stuffy, and old-fashioned as you can get. Anyway, I'm not judging Islam - I'm pointing up the gulf between Muslim and Christian (and thence post-Christian) thought. You seem oblivious to the differences. I recognise that you don't believe in the Gospel story of Jesus as God but you have repeatedly miss-construed or miss-represented his actions as reported by early Christians and their significance. At the same time you gloss over the more violent episodes in the Koran and in Muslim history. The fact is that Christians learned Holy War from the Muslims, one of the reasons the Roman and Persian Empires folded up during the Islamic Conquests (aside from fatigue) is that they were completely unprepared for the way the Muslims fought, and particularly the belief that death in battle was a way to enter heaven - early Christian saints are all conscientious objectors or outright pacifists.

If you look at Muhammed, his companions, and the early Caliphs you see that they're all clever administrators, cunning politicians and accomplished, sometimes ruthless, generals. That is, of course, how they look the Perisaian Empire and two thirds of the remaining Roman Empire in really just a few years.

I have no problem with that - I simple object to Islam being described as a "religion of peace" when early Islamic religious expansion was achieved via military conquest.

[AE Bravo]

If you still want to discuss religious shit take it to the other thread, I'll kindly tell you how wrong you are.

I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.

First off I think it’s fair to say that some EU countries have displayed cowardice in their foreign policy and treatment of the middle east. France’s work in Mali is good work but the way all these western countries conduct intervention is totally counterproductive.

Picking a side after intervening directly leads to anti-western jihad. By supporting rebel groups you are eradicating their legitimacy and cause them to lose the hearts and minds of that country's population, at the same time making yourself a target for Islamists. Islamists revere the Umayyad caliphate. The definition of traitor in the Arab-Muslim world is collaboration with foreign forces against your own people.

"From Caesar of Rome to Muawiya,
We've come to know of what has occurred between you and Ali, and we see that you are more fitting for the Caliphate and so if you wish I will send you an army which will retrieve for you the head of Ali."
and so Muawiya replied to him saying,
"From Muawiya to Hercules,
Two brothers disputing so what right do you have to intervene? If you don't keep quiet I will send you an army its forerunners near you while its rearmost near me, to retrieve your head which I would then give to Ali."

You can question the historicity of this letter but this is the frame of reference for Islamists, especially IS. Neutrality should preclude intervention into Muslim lands, or just don't intervene. PFH believes Islam provides "fertile soil" anywhere in the world for Islamism, that's just ludicrous because these are all politically-charged operations, and the only way to convince someone to strap a bomb to himself is to use shaheed martyrdom for inspiration. It's funny when the west asks "why do they hate us?" when Islamists generally don't discriminate, recently blowing up a mosques in Kuwait and KSA and Turkey. Even Muslims are "sub-humans" to Islamists.

[Strike For The South]

Yes loosing maybe 5 million (Monty´s own estimate) and ruining lives of 500 million people in order to maybe get to a certain hypothetical situation, which would favor the very limited US way of dealing with enemies. Namely being able to fight them with 0 own casualties, is surely fairly interesting. At least if asked from psychologist evaluating how delusional such plan is, in its all nihilism.

But then your posts never had much to add in the "brain power" of this site in any case. Maybe you should take the example of DivinusArma and post to each Middle East topic two words: " Sheet of Glass" . That would surely be safe approach. It would suite your posting better then the high horse you currently are.

Calm down there coal miners daughter. I said I found him interesting. The west just killed 50 civillans in airstrike, I would prefer if we decided to use violence to use it effectively. All this does is print more terrorists off the assembly line. So allowing them to kill each other indefinitely does stop and make me think. We could even do what we did in the Iran Iraq war and supply both sides. That worked out very well until Saddam bit off more than he could chew.

People wouldn't be hoping for democracy directly, but for peace, stability and prosperity. If the peace is built on subjugation, torture and death - how long do you think it will last?

People want justice and to be able to speak their minds, and if the current state of things is lacking in this regard, it will probably be unstable in the long run.

Justice and speaking your mind become harder under an autocracy which is seemingly the only thing that works in the region.

"You think one muslim woman in the French cabinet is somehow proof of successful integration." No, that is an indication of what you think is absolutely out of touch and reality.
You come up with a claim you cannot back-up with facts, so your only choice is denial or dismissal. I don't blame you for this as you don't have really other things to do.
I could have go for successful businessmen and women, or, sportsmen, or whoever, you would come back with the same "answer" from your belief.
France has the highest number of "Muslim" in Europe (excluding Turkey). Most of them are of course atheist, as the general French population. Probably because they living in horrid ghettos and apartheid...
As head in the sand, you could start to put your out of it, and look around you. You will see the world somewhere else else than in your head.

French social policy demands integration at the cost of even the most minor cultural traditions. The country will never be able to truly assimilate a disparate cultural group. You can post the elite or the 1/1000 rags to riches success stories but it doesn't change the fact the muslims are France are becoming less integrated. When you ban the small fish like headscarves and language you alienate populations.

The French muslim population sympathizes with ISIS in droves. They sign up to fight at a higher rate then any other Western nation. The base for ISIS support in the west is in France. The Washington Post has numbers. I'm sure you've seen and I'm sure youll post some hand wringing journalist trying to explain them away.

Now certainly this is not the sole fault of French policy. The post 2008 economic malaise doesn't help nor does a west as whole that carries no real values beyond "If it feels good, do it." These young men look for purpose and all we can offer in return is hedonism. That is our fault.

I agree that Europe has a problem with integration. But I wouldn't hold up North America as some kind of shining example. Our integration of immigrants works on a multi-generational schedule. Which pretty much writes off the first two generations of new arrivals. They'll never fully integrate. But the 3rd generation is the one that's mostly integrated. Yes I'm not using assimilated because Canada doesn't ask that.

Right. I never said America was perfect, or even good. Just that integration is trending positive, not negative.

[Strike For The South]

I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.

I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation. War is hell.

William Tecumseh Sherman

[Brenus]

"The French muslim population sympathizes with ISIS in droves. They sign up to fight at a higher rate then any other Western nation. The base for ISIS support in the west is in France. The Washington Post has numbers. I'm sure you've seen" No, I didn't, but I am sure you will provide a link. And of course from where your statistic come from... I sure ISIL publish interesting ones...
Dear, the "Muslim" population were fighting for France and were giving their blood long before the USA even recognised blacks as human being.
Still head in the sand, I see...

[Strike For The South]

http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-ci...l-finds-266795

Also, those muslims who were "fighting for France" were conscripted. I doubt the Indians in the British army would feel they were defending the queen.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

If you still want to discuss religious shit take it to the other thread, I'll kindly tell you how wrong you are.

By all means - my, as I said, is that you have a very strong tendency to gloss over the differences.

I remember Will T Sherman guy over there saying how everyone's "too comfortable, too soft." I live in Allah country buddy, it's far from comfortable. We lost my cousin a month ago in Yemen fighting Ansarullah Houthis. I have two more years before I get mandatory drafted for the fight. Get off your "texan" (whatever that is) high horse and act like a man for once in this forum.

From Strike's perspective, from where he lives and where he grew up the UAE is very soft living. As you said, everybody is rich.

First off I think it’s fair to say that some EU countries have displayed cowardice in their foreign policy and treatment of the middle east. France’s work in Mali is good work but the way all these western countries conduct intervention is totally counterproductive.

Picking a side after intervening directly leads to anti-western jihad. By supporting rebel groups you are eradicating their legitimacy and cause them to lose the hearts and minds of that country's population, at the same time making yourself a target for Islamists. Islamists revere the Umayyad caliphate. The definition of traitor in the Arab-Muslim world is collaboration with foreign forces against your own people.

"From Caesar of Rome to Muawiya,
We've come to know of what has occurred between you and Ali, and we see that you are more fitting for the Caliphate and so if you wish I will send you an army which will retrieve for you the head of Ali."
and so Muawiya replied to him saying,
"From Muawiya to Hercules,
Two brothers disputing so what right do you have to intervene? If you don't keep quiet I will send you an army its forerunners near you while its rearmost near me, to retrieve your head which I would then give to Ali."

You can question the historicity of this letter but this is the frame of reference for Islamists, especially IS. Neutrality should preclude intervention into Muslim lands, or just don't intervene. PFH believes Islam provides "fertile soil" anywhere in the world for Islamism, that's just ludicrous because these are all politically-charged operations, and the only way to convince someone to strap a bomb to himself is to use shaheed martyrdom for inspiration. It's funny when the west asks "why do they hate us?" when Islamists generally don't discriminate, recently blowing up a mosques in Kuwait and KSA and Turkey. Even Muslims are "sub-humans" to Islamists.

OK, well first off the letter is a fake - the Emperor at the time was Constantine IV, Heraclius had been dead several decades by the like Muawiya became Caliph. Heraclius is the Emperor contemptuous with Muhammed himself, the title "Caesar" is also anachronistic.

It makes the point as a piece of propaganda, though.

In any case, what I was arguing was that we should have picked a side years ago - we have actually picked a side in Syria though - the side(s) against Assad and IS.

As far as Western intervention goes, though, I can't tell if you're saying the Islamists will see any Muslims we co-operate with as "tainted" or whether you're saying all other Muslims will see it that way. If it's the latter case then that's just ammunition for people who say the Arab world has slid back into the dark ages, because it's foolish to think like that. The only Powers able to help a Liberal or just moderate revolt in an Arab country are Western Powers, or possibly the Kingdom of Jordan if they were inclined. In the future Tunisia and Egypt may become stable democracies but we won't know that for decades and they have their own problems.

If what you're saying is that the Muslim Arab world won't be helped then you're playing into the hands of the people who just want to build a concrete wall around the Middle East and let the whole thing go to Hell - or even further into Hell.