Russian military jet downed by Turkey

[Fisherking]

In other news, Erdogan stated that if a Turkish jet was shot down by Russian SAM sites when flying over Syria it would be considered an act of aggression and that there would be "appropriate responce" that would "not be negotiated".

This guy really wants a KGB assassin to send him to Allah and his 72 virgins.

We can always hope. ;)

Anyway,
From what I see here: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34941093 it tells me Turkey shot down the plane after it left Turkish air space, if it fired 17 seconds after it entered it.

Turkey isn’t exactly a poster child for protecting sovereign territory either; http://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmcc...r-infographic/
and
http://massispost.com/2015/10/turkis...nias-airspace/

Pot, kettle, black. The whole incident reeks.

Deliberate provocation of Russia by Turkey, to involve NATO?
A plan by Turkey and US to hamper cooperation between Russia and other NATO allies?

Your call.

I just wonder what the Greeks can take form this.

[Shaka_Khan]

I read that the Russians are deploying more SAM sites to use against Turkish jets. The Russians already bombed Turkish convoys in retaliation to Russia's losses. From the looks of it, Turkish jets will continue to fly over Syria. This will lead to one inevitable result. How will the rest of NATO respond?

[Viking]

"Syria is Turkey's Ukraine"

Now consider how Putin would react if the U.S. or North Atlantic Treaty Alliance decided to get involved militarily in eastern Ukraine, placing an airbase and Patriot missile batteries 50 miles from the Russian border. Picture NATO aircraft providing airpower for an all-out Ukrainian ground assault against the Russian-backed rebels, aided by troops from Poland and Chechnya (in Syria's case, that's Iran and Hezbollah). Imagine Turkish and American jets flying into Russian airspace as they try to optimize their bombing runs.

Funny comparison.

There are Russian military bases "all around" Turkey. Russia is expanding the EEU to countries right next to Turkey's borders. Russia is supporting a "fascist regime" in Damascus that is cracking down on ethnic Turk(men)s. Of course we should expect Erdogan to act, of course we should..

[Fragony]

I read that the Russians are deploying more SAM sites to use against Turkish jets. The Russians already bombed Turkish convoys in retaliation to Russia's losses. From the looks of it, Turkish jets will continue to fly over Syria. This will lead to one inevitable result. How will the rest of NATO respond?

Not, Turkey is in serious isolation right now, and it isn't Turkish territory.

[Fisherking]

"Syria is Turkey's Ukraine"



Funny comparison.

There are Russian military bases "all around" Turkey. Russia is expanding the EEU to countries right next to Turkey's borders. Russia is supporting a "fascist regime" in Damascus that is cracking down on ethnic Turk(men)s. Of course we should expect Erdogan to act, of course we should..

Satirical Parallels of Russia in Ukraine.

The Syrian Government I would guess is hardly worse, and perhaps better, than what the west (US) would replace it with. The current Turkish government is hardly any better.

As for fascists, that could be applied to most governments in varying degrees, post WWII.

The Syrian civil war is just a poor example of attempted regime change. None have worked out well. They are all in worse shape than before, with the possible exception of Afghanistan, but still corrupt and still at war.

All the rebel groups are the same. There are no moderates. You see examples of the FSA cooperating with ISIL or ISIS and even providing most of its fighters. The closest to moderate are the Kurds, whom the Turks are actively fighting and supporting ISIS attacks on them. The US bombing campaign has been a sham. We know who provided the funding and material support.

The whole was is a western covert op to make the Saudis and others happy by getting rid of a (sectarian) Shia regime.

It is a nasty war that doesn’t need fighting, fought by bad guys on all sides and it is pointless to pretend otherwise.

Ukraine was the Western diversion and revenge for Russian involvement in Syria. Neither is working out the way it was planned. What ever Putin’s faults, he is not as stupid as his Western Opposition. They just find themselves out manoeuvred again.

There is a real problem with never learning from mistakes.

[Gilrandir]

So maybe they were hoping it was a US plane because the US don't bomb the evil Kurds?
Or were they hoping for a civilian plane? Does ISIS have an air force now?
What kind of evil were they expecting? UFOs?

@Gilrandir, That is a ball face lie. They knew full well it was Russian. That is saying that the rest of NATO never shared IFF technology with them.
It was a prepositioned ambush, pure and simple. The aid convoy is the same propaganda used by the Russians in your country.
A few people have told me that it is Turkish petulance over the Russian bombing of ISIS oil tanker trucks headed for Turkey. Yes, where else do you think they go to sell it?

I'm well aware of all this and don't buy what Erdogan is selling to the world. I'm sure Turkish pilots have an explicit (though secret) order to shoot down any Russian plane which will enter the Turkish airspace for as much as 2 meters.

But: we can't deny the fact that Russians have become notorious for their "unidentified and without any insignia" tactics, so Erdogan did what Ukrainians in the Crimea might have done with the same attempts at justification. Formally, if the Russian plane was flying with its identification system off, it was just an alien plane in the Turkish sovereign airspace. Fair game (ostensibly). Worth burning Erdogan (or his effigy) on a Simferopol square:

I'm getting sick and tired of the double standards. Charlie Hebdo can easily pull off a page like this after the airliner was shot down in Egypt
You may feel it is a cheap shot, but I personally feel ashamed now to have been Charlie back then.

Like I said: ethically and morally doubtful sarcasm/mockery likely to produce a backlash from less tolerant communities.

That in itself is not much of a problem. There will always be insensitive idiots. What is concerning is the lack of reaction. Just like there wasn't for the gunning down of a pilot. During the first gulf war, two Italian pilots were caught by the Iraqis. They appeared on Iraqi tv, slightly swollen up, and apologized to Iraqi people. There was massive outrage about the inhuman treatment. They were released later, shaken and with a few bruises, but no serious harm.

Since then the world has been overexposed to scenes of violence, so its reaction to any more of those has grown numb. Moreover, according to Husar, any ten years that elapse since some gruesome and palpitating event reduce emotional empathy to similar events (may we call it the Husar Law? Only he will have to gave it some numerical dimension and offer a formula, something like this:)

Syria is Turkey's Ukraine"
Funny comparison.
There are Russian military bases "all around" Turkey. Russia is expanding the EEU to countries right next to Turkey's borders. Russia is supporting a "fascist regime" in Damascus that is cracking down on ethnic Turk(men)s. Of course we should expect Erdogan to act, of course we should..

So now we are in for Turkey's annexation of Latakia with its naval base?

[Husar]

Because there is none, but nor in the caricature you linked. The text says "Daesh, the Russian air force intensified their bombing", with a terrorist under the fall of plane's parts and one passenger (still alive).
So, the bombing of the Russian airliner was a "answer" to the Russian bombing. Nobody can deny this, as no one can deny that the Paris' slaughter is an answer to France foreign policy.
But, this said, where the caricature is making fun of people who die? I think the one with the champagne going out by the bullet holes much more "offensive" to potential victims than parts of plane falling on the head of a terrorist (which can as well be seen as a warning, see Putin's speech).
And it was, or it was as I read it, a kind of warning. Asymmetric war is not fun, so, really, do we think they will stay under bombing without reacting where and when they can? And actually, it is a question that the French are asking their several leaders who started bombing other countries thinking, perhaps, it was not war...

Eh, maybe French comics are entirely different from comics in the rest of the world, but to me it showed a plane falling out of the sky and sarcastically called the falling parts and people "intensified bombing" as though the Russians blew up their own plane over terrorist territory in order to hit the terrorists with the debris. That seems lime a cheap shot at the stereotype that Russians don't care about the lives of their own people and so on and it diminishes the tragedy of the event.
The Paris cartoons in comparison glorify the French while the plane-cartoon looks very anti-Russian with the whole stereotype thing.
Or in other words, the plane cartoon makes fun of the Russians (victims) while the Paris cartoons make fun of the terrorists (perpetrators).
Your whole interpretation seems more like you are looking for excuses, or have they made one yet where the French bomb ISIS with the dead bodies of the Paris attacks?

[Brenus]

"Or in other words, the plane cartoon makes fun of the Russians (victims) while the Paris cartoons make fun of the terrorists (perpetrators)." Where do you take that the cartoon make fun of the Russians victims? Where? I don't get it! You even don't see one Russian victims in the cartoon, as the falling passenger isn't even dead!!!
It is clear as crystal that they refer to the terrorist bomb, so how it can even suggest to you the Russians blow-up their own plane!!! That is insane!!!
Yes or no, the falling parts of the Russian plane is due to a sabotage due to the Russian bombing campaign? Or is it anti-Russian and racist to write it?
What is anti-Russian in this drawing? Because I can show you anti-Russian drawings from Charlie about Ukraine if you want... And they are not racist, but clearly anti-Russian...
YOU look for interpretation to find racism where there is none, but only politic. You might disagree with the politic, but I find strange that you use the same point of view than fanatical murderers...

"That seems lime a cheap shot at the stereotype that Russians don't care about the lives of their own people and so on and it diminishes the tragedy of the event." That is your stereotype, and the one of the extreme right in France. For various historical reasons the French prefer to see the extraordinary courage and sacrifice spirit shown by the Russian during the WW2.
http://acesofww2.com/nn/





"the plane cartoon makes fun of the Russians (victims)" How? Where the element that can make fun? Tell me, because I don't see it.

[Husar]

Where do you take that the cartoon make fun of the Russians victims? Where? I don't get it! You even don't see one Russian victims in the cartoon, as the falling passenger isn't even dead!!!

What? There is an engine dropping onto a terrorist's head, other parts including a passenger are also falling down everywhere.
The headline reads "Russian aviation (or air force?) intensifies bombings", clearly bombings refers to the parts and passengers falling down from the sky and to intensify bombings clearly states an intent by the Russians to have these things and people falling out of the sky. This means that the cartoon is basically jokingly saying the Russians use their passenger planes including the passengers as bombs. That the passenger shown is not dead doesn't mean anything, he will be on impact and he clearly is meant to depict one of the passengers of the Russian plane that fell out of the sky, and therefore a victim. You're grasping at straws here at best!

If this is not meant to show the Russians using passengers and debris as bombs against terrorists, why is there a terrorist underneath the dropping engine?

And that some French praise Russian WW2 heroes does not relate in any way to Charlie Hedo, unless their staffers wrote these books.

And they are not racist, but clearly anti-Russian...

Who said racist? Is being anti-Russian not bad enough?
You can be anti-Putin if you want, I'm not a huge fan either, but when Russian tourists get bombed it's still a tragedy, no?

[Sarmatian]

"Or in other words, the plane cartoon makes fun of the Russians (victims) while the Paris cartoons make fun of the terrorists (perpetrators)." Where do you take that the cartoon make fun of the Russians victims? Where? I don't get it! You even don't see one Russian victims in the cartoon, as the falling passenger isn't even dead!!!
It is clear as crystal that they refer to the terrorist bomb, so how it can even suggest to you the Russians blow-up their own plane!!! That is insane!!!

Every single passenger died, so drawing one still alive doesn't improve the overall situation.

I can't get really get any single meaningful message from that drawing. The rest you posted are pretty self explanatory - they either joke about superiority of French culture or make fun of the terrorists.

It gets even weirder as, if I recall correctly, at the time of the drawing the prevailing theory was that the plane crashed due to a malfunction, hence the other drawing.



So, it is most probably correct that they were making fun of the stereotype that Russian leadership doesn't care about the people.

[Brenus]

"So, it is most probably correct that they were making fun of the stereotype that Russian leadership doesn't care about the people." Wrong again, sorry for the inconvenience. You were not correct in your assumption. !) Low cost air lines are not the responsibility of State. 2 The second cartoon is about a political affair in France:
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/france-air-...public-1525966

"I can't get really get any single meaningful message from that drawing." Ok; I will do simple: Russia bombed terrorists. Terrorists destroyed Russian plane. Russia intensifies (or will) bombing. That is called asymmetric war. And countries, including France, can't carry on thinking that bombing is not war... So, the attack on the plane is not due to chance but the result of a war.

"they either joke about superiority of French culture" Where did you find any of this in the cartoons I put here? You start to feel your initial proposal is not as strong as you though, so you try a smoke screen "a la Gilrandir". Comm'on, you can do better. Give me real facts, based on the cartoon, analyse it and show me the mocking of the Russian victims.

"make fun of the terrorists." Yeap. Fair game, don't you think so? We bombed them (not too much, it cost money, but we have to follow USA), they killed us, we make jokes (and bomb them).

It is funny as Russia doesn't really feel so attacked by the French cartoons.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/fr...ration-n470116
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34931378

"Every single passenger died, so drawing one still alive doesn't improve the overall situation." Sorry? What overall situation? The none-existence of making fun of Russian victims? You not able to point out from where you making this point, as the only really thing in the drawing is parts of a plane we know to be Russian and one victim (symbolising the victims) falling on the head on a terrorist... So tell me, what is offensive? Where is the mocking of the Russian Victims (that is a repeat, I know)?

"When Russian tourists get bombed it's still a tragedy, no?" Yes, who deny this? That is why they don't make fun of them. They exposed a field reality of war. They were tragically right as shown by the attack on Paris, for the exact same reasons...

"clearly bombings refers to the parts and passengers falling down from the sky and to intensify bombings clearly states an intent by the Russians to have these things and people falling out of the sky." I answer to this before. You are clearly missing of the point.
If they wanted to draw a bombing they will draw a cartoon
Like this
or (We offer your a Metal Rock Concert)

[Husar]

They exposed a field reality of war. They were tragically right as shown by the attack on Paris, for the exact same reasons...

Only according to your incredibly desperate and convoluted interpretation that noone else seems to see so far in that comic...

[Brenus]

"Only according to your incredibly desperate and convoluted interpretation that noone else seems to see so far in that comic..." You still failed to give a real explanation on what push you to believed in yours!!!

[Gilrandir]

Where did you find any of this in the cartoons I put here? You start to feel your initial proposal is not as strong as you though, so you try a smoke screen "a la Gilrandir". Comm'on, you can do better. Give me real facts, based on the cartoon, analyse it and show me the mocking of the Russian victims.

Who said racist? Is being anti-Russian not bad enough?
You can be anti-Putin if you want, I'm not a huge fan either, but when Russian tourists get bombed it's still a tragedy, no?

Only according to your incredibly desperate and convoluted interpretation that noone else seems to see so far in that comic...

Welcome to my world. No you see what I saw a couple years ago. Stubborn denial of the facts that are obvious for everyone else, blunt refusal to accept an alternative perspective and lots of name-calling if someone doesn't agree to what His Majesty preaches. But now there's one more thing that comes into spotlight: the French are reported to have their own value system (different from the rest of Europe to say nothing of the rest of the world) which is why it is the best nation on the planet.

[Strike For The South]

I think the French comics are funny.

[Greyblades]

I dont find it funny, because I dont get the joke.

I think people who bitch/kill over being offended by a political cartoon should be ridiculed/shot, as applicable.

[Gilrandir]

I dont find it funny, because I dont get the joke.

I think people who bitch/kill over being offended by a political cartoon should be ridiculed/shot, as applicable.

What if a political cartoon ridicules victims who have already suffered?

[Greyblades]

Being offended isnt suffering and feelings arent worth supressing free speech.

[Brenus]

"What if a political cartoon ridicules victims who have already suffered?" You go to Court. Try to find something convincing i.e. "hurt my feelings".
Will be of course rejected, by at least you try...
Do you notice that jokes are in fact making fun of people who suffered? When someone fall on banana's skin, it hurts, or on ice, or fall from a tree, we laugh. Are you not ashamed to laugh?
The fact is of course in the actual discussing nobody poked fun at the victims, but there...

"But now there's one more thing that comes into spotlight: the French are reported to have their own value system (different from the rest of Europe to say nothing of the rest of the world) which is why it is the best nation on the planet." You have a lot of imagination, I grant you this. Well, it was obvious during several of your past interventions, but you are reaching new levels... Please do explain our you reach this conclusion? I am curious...
If by values you mean something different than comics, of course.

"I dont find it funny, because I dont get the joke." The one shown by Sarmatian is not meant to be funny.

The fact that a simple description is enough: Parts of Russian plane falling from the sky on the head of a terrorist. You don't have to be specialist in symbolism to understand this???!!!! A Russian plane is sabotage as a consequence of Russia bombs terrorist (in the text)... No need to go to Sandhurst or West Point to get the message???!!! No? So where the h***k did they find this cartoon offensive for the victims?

Are all cartoons in political newspapers are funny in all others countries but France?

[Greyblades]

No. Not all political cartoons outside france are funny. Though for a lot of them it isnt intentional.

[Husar]

Welcome to my world. No you see what I saw a couple years ago. Stubborn denial of the facts that are obvious for everyone else, blunt refusal to accept an alternative perspective and lots of name-calling if someone doesn't agree to what His Majesty preaches. But now there's one more thing that comes into spotlight: the French are reported to have their own value system (different from the rest of Europe to say nothing of the rest of the world) which is why it is the best nation on the planet.

I end up on your side in some and on his side in other discussions, it reassures me that I always represent the sensible side of an argument.
I think you two should just respect eachother a bit more, I think you're both not stupid but maybe a bit nationalistic when the relevant topics come up. Everybody knows Germany is the best country and I don't get why others can't see that!

I think the French comics are funny.

I'd be surprised if a proud Texan were not anti-Russian, I forgive you.

I dont find it funny, because I dont get the joke.

I think people who bitch/kill over being offended by a political cartoon should be ridiculed/shot, as applicable.

I think shot is a bit much (unless you meant terrorists and the like, I was thinking of normal people who just complain), but what is your opinion on pro-Western bias in the West?

[Sarmatian]

The fact that a simple description is enough: Parts of Russian plane falling from the sky on the head of a terrorist. You don't have to be specialist in symbolism to understand this???!!!! A Russian plane is sabotage as a consequence of Russia bombs terrorist (in the text)... No need to go to Sandhurst or West Point to get the message???!!! No? So where the h***k did they find this cartoon offensive for the victims?

Are all cartoons in political newspapers are funny in all others countries but France?

I don't think their intention was to insult the victims. Some message is obviously there. It's just that they didn't care about the victims or a nation in mourning. Empathy -> 0. I'm not sure what the message is, the only meaningful interpretation is Russia doesn't care about lost lives. I find your explanation possible, but unlikely and somewhat illogical.

[Greyblades]

I think shot is a bit much (unless you meant terrorists and the like, I was thinking of normal people who just complain), but what is your opinion on pro-Western bias in the West?

As i said: If aplicable. If you are willing to kill because you are offended by a cartoon you should be shot. Obviously a little verbal venting doesnt deserve death but if someones gonna chimp out over a political cartoon they deserve a little trolling.

I dont get what you mean by pro western bias.

[Husar]

I dont get what you mean by pro western bias.

That no christians have sent death threats to CH over the russian plane cartoon of course.
Or maybe just that making fun with russian victims seems acceptable here while most people would have called similar jokes tasteless shortly after the Paris attacks.

Please note that I am not advocating censorship, I just don't think the cartoon is perfectly fine or unbiased as our resident Frenchman argued.

[Brenus]

"That no christians have sent death threats to CH over the russian plane cartoon of course." Nope. They through Molotov cocktails for the cartoons about the Pope...
Didn't see other religions doing this for Pope's cartoons, mind you... Hmmm, is it a biais?

"I just don't think the cartoon is perfectly fine or unbiased as our resident Frenchman argued." Of course it is biased!!! It's politic...
The thing you don't get, even I said it quite often, I NEVER bought Charlie. It is (was) an anarcho-trees hungers publication, save the baby seals and others whales. They were part of a anti-militarist movement which depicted me and others professional soldiers as babies-killers, at best.
I did appreciate their anti-clerical/religion position but never like their cartoons, as really badly drawn and some comments quite really near the border...

I really surprise to have been put in position to defend the d**n publication, but it was something I was prepared to do when I joined the army, protected our democracy (@Gilrandir: France is not the only democracy) and freedom (@Gilrandir: Not the only one to have it).
Again, they didn't make fun of the victim, Russian or not.

I could put one of their drawing after the MH370, but you would probably say it was bad taste (and it was) and making fun of the victims, when in fact, it is a cartoon against the media time of a human tragedy... Still "bad" taste, but it is true that we don't like to be reminded of uncomfortable truth, as children drawn in a sea, the flooding of refugees, and terrorism... That is too much bad taste...
Better not to be reminded...

[Greyblades]

That no christians have sent death threats to CH over the russian plane cartoon of course.
Or maybe just that making fun with russian victims seems acceptable here while most people would have called similar jokes tasteless shortly after the Paris attacks.

Have CH recieved death threats from christians? For that matter I still dont understand why you think CH is making fun of the victims.

Please note that I am not advocating censorship, I just don't think the cartoon is perfectly fine or unbiased as our resident Frenchman argued.

If you aren't advocating censorship what are you advocating? Or are you merely stating an observation or opinion?

If so it doesnt really matter to me in the grand scheme of things what your opinion is, all I will say is I disagree; while it is certainly biased as all political cartoons are, legally speaking the cartoon is indeed perfectly fine for a person or publication to make.

On a more personal note I dont see what the problem is, in the airlines comic the victims arent the butt of the joke nor are they portrayed as... well anything; the only one depicted isnt shown as a hero or villian, or anything really save another plummeting object.
As far as i can tell samaritan is bitching that CH is even toutching the airliner incident, as if he was muslim and the pic was of muhammad.

[Husar]

Or are you merely stating an observation or opinion?

This.

If so it doesnt really matter to me in the grand scheme of things what your opinion is

That does not really matter to me.

On a more personal note I dont see what the problem is, in the airlines comic the victims arent the butt of the joke nor are they portrayed as... well anything; the only one depicted isnt shown as a hero or villian, or anything really save another plummeting object.
As far as i can tell samaritan is bitching that CH is even toutching the airliner incident, as if he was muslim and the pic was of muhammad.

No, the thing that makes it seem wrong is that Russians were the victims and Russians are also made fun of. It is this connection that seems bothersome/biased. Yes, maybe poltical cartoons are biased but I think that one stinks and it is interesting (and wrong!!!111) that noone takes issue with it and Brenus has a completely different interpretation. That is all.

[Fragony]

You are allowed to take offence, I don't but you can should you want to. I like a sharp pencil even if it stings

[Brenus]

"No, the thing that makes it seem wrong is that Russians were the victims and Russians are also made fun of" You still failed to show how the Russian are made fun of. What in the drawing is making fun of Russians. or the victims? I did a small summary of the drawing supporting my explanation, please do the same. And not an allegory or an alleged appeal to stereotype, but an actual part of the drawing that can lead to this conclusion.

"that noone takes issue with it" Gilrandir did.

[Crandar]

The french comics show that the cartoonists are so uninspired that they resort to purely provocative and shocking content, devoid of any ironic, sarcastic or even slightly humorous characteristic for everyone whose puberty is over. Nothing more, nothing less.

More to the topic, Turks and Russians (but mostly Turks) are owned by physics.