Rise of The Snake Cult [Concluded]

[Nightbringer]

I guess vote: Cass based on the same reasoning as before.

I think I might actually go towards Cass after severing.

She was very quiet and just jumped in at the last minute to throw a vote on khaan once he was clearly going to die anyway (although with a fair excuse of being busy), and seemed to be doing a little bit to sway people away from el barto.
She's also been doing a lot of asking other people's opinions, rather than expressing her own, which reads (to me) as a scum tactic to avoid putting your neck out, while looking active.

See these two posts in particular (both are awash in nested quotes)
one
two

She's also gone very quiet recently with focus shifting elsewhere, possibly to try to hide out as the last scum when no attention is directed her way.

Of course, that would mean the poisoned claim was fake, but that actually seems like a reasonable ploy for mafia to pull at this stage in the game.

[Nightbringer]

Vote: Nightbringer

It's less I think he's probably scum than I think the others are less likely.

please take another look at Cass

sorry for double post

[Jarema]

Why dont you vote for Cass yourself?

[Nightbringer]

Why dont you vote for Cass yourself?

I guess vote: Cass based on the same reasoning as before.

[johnhughthom]

Good point, if Cass is going to die anyway, Unvote; Vote: Cass

[Jarema]

ouch. I missed it at top of your post - it seemed to me as if it started with quotation

[Al Sipsclar]

Vote: Cass_

[Cass_]

No one is poisoned? @cass, how are your poisoning symptoms progressing?

Are we at LyLo yet? Mislynch today and two dying tonight from poison/kill.

If the killer is town-aligned, then he's the most clueless and paranoid townie. Must be Jarema. :)
If it is the last mafioso we're looking for, then it's either Nightbringer or Cass.
If it is the 3rd party/SK, then it's John.

Vote:Nightbringer. We can alternatively lynch Cass to end her sufferings and avoid the double whammy of the mislynch and her dying on us tonight.

@Al Sipsclar - Why do you assume there's going to be a double whammy and that it's going to be me?

I haven't heard anything else re poisoning. My assumption would be that if there is an extra killer in the game beyond poisoner and the usual mafia NK, and they took out Edse/Winston rather than the poison then I've likely been healed? IIRC, Landlubber's death scene writeup clearly indicated poison while the others didn't. That to me suggests we have a poison healer, as well as a poisoner and an extra killer.

I'm neither mafia nor a killing power. Mislynching me at best might avoid a 'double whammy' at night but that's assuming there's no healer/I have not been healed and that there's definitely an extra killer left - which cannot be confirmed.

As far as I can see, unless we lynch mafia or killer today (or the extra killer is dead), the risk of double kill at night remains as much as it did yesterday and a preemptive strike like you're suggesting is just re-doing the poisoner's job for them if I've been healed.

I am not the right lynch today unless you're scum or you're certain that I'm going to die tonight.

I guess vote: Cass based on the same reasoning as before.

I think I might actually go towards Cass after severing.

She was very quiet and just jumped in at the last minute to throw a vote on khaan once he was clearly going to die anyway (although with a fair excuse of being busy), and seemed to be doing a little bit to sway people away from el barto.
She's also been doing a lot of asking other people's opinions, rather than expressing her own, which reads (to me) as a scum tactic to avoid putting your neck out, while looking active.

See these two posts in particular (both are awash in nested quotes)
one
two

She's also gone very quiet recently with focus shifting elsewhere, possibly to try to hide out as the last scum when no attention is directed her way.

Of course, that would mean the poisoned claim was fake, but that actually seems like a reasonable ploy for mafia to pull at this stage in the game.

@Nightbringer - I've mentioned before I don't like this 'reasoning', and it was that initial post that put you in my 'most scummy' pile earlier enough to vote.

1. If you actually read my posts, I've given my thoughts/opinions along with my questions every time. I make the questions the main point, but my own opinions are also there. Saying I haven't done so is either ignorant or misrepresentation. Linking it as a scum tactic looks especially bad from where I sit.

2. I have been far more explanatory of my thought process and have a higher post count than most of the players left. There was no focus on me gamewise prior to our travel, so your comment about 'focus shifting elsewhere' and me possibly 'hiding out as the last scum' is a serious reach. I've been 'quiet' because I've been flat out busy travelling and visiting with family/friends interstate over the holiday (as you mention and essentially excuse as 'fair').

3. Khaan's vote could have been a bus but the only motive for that if I was scum would be to theoretically gain town cred - which I have never actually seen a hammer vote on a pretty-certain-to-be-lynched player do. In almost every game I've played that vote garners suspicion and ends in the situation I'm facing now/a lynch, so there wouldn't actually be much point in hammering - except as Town to secure a lynch on someone who's likely scum.

I voted taking Winston's claim at face value but tbh I actually freaked out a little after that - first in case it was a mislynch (I had been most suspicious of Winston early in the day) and later in case it was all leading to a gambit that would incorrectly clear Wilson and Edse. I was still tinfoiling on that until both of them flipped Town.

4. El Barto was the player I was watching closest and I still had him as very potential scum. I never did anything in relation to him other than voice my personal preference that he not be an early lynch. The reasons for that (which I explained) were that I hadn't figured him out yet (read: he was actually fun to try and solve) and that I found a lot of his sarcastic quips were mirroring my own initial thoughts.

5. It's equally reasonable that scum would suggest my poisoning claim was a ploy/fake to push for my mislynch.

What, specifically, stands out to you about the two posts you linked, besides the nested quotes?
There are thoughts and reasons galore along with my questions if you actually look, and I will willingly elaborate further on anything you highlight/don't understand. Same goes for anything else that concerns you about my game.

[Cass_]

Ok, here's where I'm at right now.

Flips in post #421 make it likely that NKs come from mafia (killed Cuth), poisoner (killed landlubber) and town/3p (killed El Barto).

We've had no specific poison kills except for landlubber. Edse and Winston both claimed poisoning and lived, this suggests a healer who is likely to still be alive since I'm still here and Zain was watched on the nights players were healed. The healer could confirm my poisoning was true but I understand them holding back if they're unsure of me/my chance of survival.

There were no additional kills for the past two nights. I'm not sure how likely a second 3rd party would be after GH's flip, or why they would holster at this point in the game, so I'm leaning that the killer was Town and is dead or is holstering because they're unsure.



Despite my previous post, I doubt that Nightbringer is scum pushing my lynch so hard today, and as with yesterday, I doubt that he pushes SV so hard as a 'bus' the day before he became the lynch over GK.

I think it's more likely (in both cases) that Scum simply let Town direct and pile on at this stage, like JHT/Jarema, or make subtle suggestions such as Al Sips' 'alternatively we could kill Cass to end her suffering and spare a double whammy'.

Of the votes on me:

Al Sips votes Nightbringer after JHT does, then floats the idea of lynching me as an alternative to Nightbringer, waits until the votes pile on to vote me. Feels like he's been gearing up to my mislynch rather than genuinely thinking I'm scum/need to be lynched for the good of Town for the past two-three day phases. Seems like he doesn't care which one of us dies, even though he previously swore the vote on Khaan made me his top town and in post #535 Nightbringer is the only player he lists as 'low risk' for every possible killing role in the game I wish I had more time to look into his vote patterns/ISO, he's feeling more and more scummy to me despite activity.

@Al Sipsclar - Please explain your shift in thought process on the Khaan vote and on Nightbringer's alignment between:

Nightbringer also pushed for SV lynch early D4 and D5, which makes it unlikey he's part of SV's team.

and

If it is the last mafioso we're looking for, then it's either Nightbringer or Cass.

JHT's out the gate vote on Nightbringer is lacklustre for the 'it's less I think he's actually scum' and the sheep to me with the 'if she's going to die anyway' isn't great, but prior to this he has voted GK, Khaan, GH, GK, Jarema, Zain. He was most active in the phases where he was pushing Jarema/Zain for low content. That made me wary for the hipocracy, the fact that I struggle with low posters, and because I had Zain clear thanks to Winston - but on the surface GH and Khaan votes are a plus. Need to check timing of votes to confirm they weren't likely bus/scummy. But unless he plays super quiet/non-explanatory and sheepy as scum I think this is more likely to come from Town.

Nightbringer I've been over. I still don't like his vote or reasoning wrt me, he could very well be scum. I could return to this in F3 but I don't think I'll be voting here today.

Jarema sheeps and votes me despite making the focus of the post questioning NB for a not-vote that doesn't exist. Not sure if this is legit or attempt at diversion/getting derp-cleared. I also didn't like his final 'to seal it, I'll vote Autolycus' post yesterday. And everything below still stands out to me but TLDR: The repeated opportunistic/sheeping votes on townies and lack of explanations/reasons bother me.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

WRT Jarema
I still don't like his votes/responses and he's now scummiest to me. Unlike NB, he first avoided and then quickly switched to the lynch of SV. I feel like the interaction/weird mutual votes between them yesterday were possibly scum-scum distancing. SV was pretty obviously going to be the lynch after GK the day before so bussing wasn't out of the question and during previous GK-SV phase Jarema i) started with his strange vote on Zain and ii) then switched to GK, otherwise staying quiet, even when questioned about the vote on Zain.

[B]
Jarema's votes stand out as opportunistic/weird. Votes Edse (let's create some pressure here) which felt opportunistic after Winston's post and weird after mine; Zain (? no reason? - hasn't responded to questioning); GH (ok because Scum, but no reasons given, simply 'too'). SV because 'among top picks yesterday and still are today' also weird/?opportunistic (also, third vote :P). Most active when pushed by Sips for votes which is null for now but ?overdefensive.

Gun to head Al Sips and Jarema are the most scummy to me right now.

I'd be happy with a lynch on either. I wish I had more time to look Sips' ISO/vote pattern but I'm going to YOLO and return to my early game read of Vote: Al Sips based on gut and the direct, unexplained contradictions above.

I will be on mobile whilst out tonight to shift back to Jarema if required, but that's where I'm at. I am a definite mislynch today.

TLDR:
If I'm mislynched/die tonight and it's not definitely related to poisoning, I'd be using my Town flip to look at Jarema/Sips unless you think JHT plays low posting, high-bussing scum or that, as scum, Nightbringer is more likely to vote SV two days in a row (over a townie in the initial instance) than Jarema is to avoid the discussion/votes on SV when they first arise and then suddenly vote him out the gate the next day when he's pretty much guaranteed to go down.

GLGL!

[Al Sipsclar]

Cass,

Like Winston said, khaan's lynch was a headshot. Little could save him, so mafia could just as well bus him. Participating in khaan's lynch is not really clearing you.
Similarly, SV was a marked man after G1K's mislynch. Bringing him up for lynch is not really clearing NB. "Unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible".
So, you and NB have the most chances of being the bussing scum.

I played with Jarema and JHT before, and I can see how they could be town. I don't have this benefit with you or NB, so you two appear less towny to me. I'm eliminating the unknowns.

You might have been cured by Raith or Auto (less likely, since I believe Auto didn't have a night action). If the healer is still alive, he's also voting to lynch you. We're voting to lynch you because we're expecting you to die from poison anyway. The right thing to do for the healer would be to confirm he healed you, so the poisoning would not be a reason to lynch you. He should have nothing to be afraid of, since there's not much left to do in the game. So I guess, there's no healer.

I wish I could help you, but since you're voting me, there's not much I can do for you.

[Cass_]

Cass,

Like Winston said, khaan's lynch was a headshot. Little could save him, so mafia could just as well bus him. Participating in khaan's lynch is not really clearing you.
Similarly, SV was a marked man after G1K's mislynch. Bringing him up for lynch is not really clearing NB. "Unlikely" doesn't mean "impossible".
So, you and NB have the most chances of being the bussing scum.

I played with Jarema and JHT before, and I can see how they could be town. I don't have this benefit with you or NB, so you two appear less towny to me. I'm eliminating the unknowns.

You might have been cured by Raith or Auto (less likely, since I believe Auto didn't have a night action). If the healer is still alive, he's also voting to lynch you. We're voting to lynch you because we're expecting you to die from poison anyway. The right thing to do for the healer would be to confirm he healed you, so the poisoning would not be a reason to lynch you. He should have nothing to be afraid of, since there's not much left to do in the game. So I guess, there's no healer.

I wish I could help you, but since you're voting me, there's not much I can do for you.

1. The same reasoning for the Khaan lynch logically existed when you illogically said it made me top Town;

2. I still think Jarema's avoid then vote SV the next day is more scummy than NB's constant push;

3. Just because you know a player doesn't mean they're Town. Explain thoroughly, in the context of the game. Just because we're 'unknown' doesn't make us good lynches at this point in the game;

4. The healer could be voting me because everyone else is and they don't want to be NK or I could be the healer, have healed everyone who claimed this game including myself and have played terribly/with less time than anticipated.

5. You could vote Jarema

There's not much anyone can do for me at this point since noone else is around.

Why do you wish to help me if you think I'm scum. Timing is terrible and baby screaming - sorry Town GL

[Visor]

End of Day Seven

Cass_ was lynched!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town

Alive: 4/20
1. Jarema
13. Al Sipsclar
15. Nightbringer
18. Johnhughthom

Dead: 16/20
11. Beskar, lynched D1, town.
9. Csargo, killed N1, town.
5. seireikhaan, lynched D2, mafia.
20. Scarlett Aria, killed N2, town.
2. GeneralHankerchief, lynched D3, third party.
12. El Barto, killed N3, mafia.
4. Cuthillius, killed N3, town.
7. landlubber, poisoned N3, town.
3. Golden1Knight, lynched D4, town.
8. edse, killed N4, town.
14. Winston Hughes, killed N4, town.
19. Severing viper, lynched D5, mafia.
10. Raith Kemmler, killed N5, town.
16. Autolycus, lynched D6, town.
6. Zain, killed N6, town.
17. Cass_, lynched D7, town.

[Nightbringer]

Swing and a miss, but is interesting in its own way. I'm becoming less and less trusting of Al Sips, Jarema, and JHT. The final mafia is bound to be one of those three, so lets get em guys.

oh wait...

[Nightbringer]

In case I die tonight, my gut is leaning towards JHT. Too non-committal and bandwagon-y the last few days.

Also, my apologies cass, but thank you for the final contribution!

[Visor]

End of Night Seven

Al Sipsclar was killed!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town

Alive: 3/20
1. Jarema
15. Nightbringer
18. Johnhughthom

Dead: 17/20
11. Beskar, lynched D1, town.
9. Csargo, killed N1, town.
5. seireikhaan, lynched D2, mafia.
20. Scarlett Aria, killed N2, town.
2. GeneralHankerchief, lynched D3, third party.
12. El Barto, killed N3, mafia.
4. Cuthillius, killed N3, town.
7. landlubber, poisoned N3, town.
3. Golden1Knight, lynched D4, town.
8. edse, killed N4, town.
14. Winston Hughes, killed N4, town.
19. Severing viper, lynched D5, mafia.
10. Raith Kemmler, killed N5, town.
16. Autolycus, lynched D6, town.
6. Zain, killed N6, town.
17. Cass_, lynched D7, town.
13. Al Sipsclar, killed N7, town.

[Nightbringer]

Happy New Year!

and oh dear, last chance.

For the moment, vote: JHT

Need to do some reading though.

[Jarema]

After reading through the game forum my suspicion leans toward vote: Nightbringer. Just tries too hard.

[johnhughthom]

Vote: Nightbringer

Weak cases could be made against any of us, pretty much just a vote and hope from me.
Unfortunate timing for a final round, I almost missed it.

[Visor]

Exciting final round. All three have posted so that's it.

Out on the town so reveal when I get home.

[Visor]

John and Gh win fwiw.

[Visor]

End of Day Eight

Nightbringer was lynched!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Town

John stabs Jarrema in the back, finishing his reconquest of the city he once called home.

Alive: 1/20
18. Johnhughthom, victorious, Third Party - Former Head of the Snake Cult.

Dead: 19/20
11. Beskar, lynched D1, town.
9. Csargo, killed N1, town.
5. seireikhaan, lynched D2, mafia.
20. Scarlett Aria, killed N2, town.
2. GeneralHankerchief, lynched D3, third party.
12. El Barto, killed N3, mafia.
4. Cuthillius, killed N3, town.
7. landlubber, poisoned N3, town.
3. Golden1Knight, lynched D4, town.
8. edse, killed N4, town.
14. Winston Hughes, killed N4, town.
19. Severing viper, lynched D5, mafia.
10. Raith Kemmler, killed N5, town.
16. Autolycus, lynched D6, town.
6. Zain, killed N6, town.
17. Cass_, lynched D7, town.
13. Al Sipsclar, killed N7, town.
15. Nightbringer, lynched D8, town.
1. Jarema, endgamed D8, town.

Congrats to johnhughthom and GeneralHankerchief for winning the game.

Quicktopics: http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/waq4meiExTTQ - John and GH
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/MsuJqydZErC - Dead QT
http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/yyunGxuSYQd9B - Mafia QT

[Visor]

Hope you all enjoyed the game. Certainly had a lot of variance swings with Winston nailing Khaan and John killing Barto.

Lots of town PRs died early.

Thanks to everyone for playing, have a happy new year.

[Visor]

Role PMs:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cass:

You are the Apothecary. Each day phase starting d2 you may choose to heal someone of poison. It will not come into effect until EOD.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Healed all victims.

You are a town poisoner. Each night starting night 1, you may submit a target to be poisoned. They will die at the end of the next day.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Only targeted landlubber, along with mafia, double dose of poison killed him immediately.

Winston Hughes

You are a town tracker. Each night starting night 1, you may target a player and see who they visit.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Tracked Khaan, big help for the town.

Beskar:

You are the Assistant. If the apothecary dies you will take over their role.

You win when all threats to the town are defeated.

Died D1, lol.

Scarlett Aria:

You are a Jailkeeper.

Each night starting night 1 you may target a player and will stop them from performing an action and prevent them from harm.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

GeneralHankerchief:

You are the Traitor.

You are aligned with the Snake Cult, but do not know who they are. They know of your existence but not that you are the Traitor.

You remember an old oath you swore long ago, of unwavering allegiance. Perhaps it will come into play.

You win when nothing can prevent a Snake Cult victory.

A knock on your door, unexpected at this time of night. You grab a blade and open the door, to your surprise, it is Johnhughthom, the original cult leader. He asks for your support in overthrowing the cult and the corrupt court. Your bonds call you, the Snake Cult is no longer your master.

You are aligned with JHT, you share a kill, you win when nothing can prevent your victory.

http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/waq4meiExTTQ

johnhughthom:

You are the Leader of the Snake Cult.

Long ago you created the Snake Cult, but it became twisted and warped out of its original meaning. You left on a journey of an enlightenment and have returned to stake your claim. But you cannot do it by yourself, and the old members would not accept you.

You are a third party. Each night starting night 1, you can scan for the undercover Cultist. He does not know of your existence, but he might suspect. He does not know his handlers (the mafia) and they do not know him. If you find him, he will remember the oath he swore and you will become a singular faction with one nightkill per night.

Being the head of the Snake Cult has given you some benefits, you are immune to all forms of poison, and will be able to survive any threat headed your way, once.

You win when nothing can prevent your victory. Good luck.

Mafia:

http://www.quicktopic.com/51/H/yyunGxuSYQd9B

You three are the leaders of the Snake Cult.

El Barto is a roleblocker.
Severing Viper is a role scanner.
Seireikhaan is a poisoner.

Please check your quicktopic for more details.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Welcome to the .Org metagame.

GG all, will have more to say later.

[Nightbringer]

Damn you work for making me do a double shift on the last day! I maybe could have done something!

[Nightbringer]

Damn you work for making me do a double shift on the last day! I maybe could have done something!

Did have a lot of fun though. GG all!

[Jarema]

congratulations mafia.

After re-reading the thread, at last day, it was for me like 80% chance that Nightbringer is scum, and only 20 that it is jht

[Scarlett Aria]

:( :(

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, speaking somewhat officially as the moderator/de facto ambassador here, I found this game very fascinating to watch once I was removed from it mostly because I was interested in seeing how things would play out when a large portion of players - particularly those dominating discussion - were new here.

For the longest time, our site's meta has done things somewhat differently in terms of game mechanics. The two biggest that were at play here were that we usually don't do straight-up post-death reveals (though this could potentially be changing) and we allow discussion after death, mostly to keep things fun. The way this has worked is that our playerbase has built up their skills in an environment where very little is taken for granted, ever.

When I saw that people were clearing John because he had gone after two separate people that had flipped scum and not really examining things any further, I knew that the game was pretty much in the bag. This was halfway through! When you're not given that certainty and clarity in terms of post-death reveals, it's much harder to be manipulated by busing and the like. You need to be constantly at the top of your game, second-guessing yourself, and examining cases on their own merit more so than association.

Playing in an environment like this when you're not used to it probably comes as an unfriendly shock at first, but in the long run I think it makes for a better player. Combine this with the fact that John is basically the last person you want to leave alive in the endgame, ever, and this series of events was pretty much a perfect storm in favor of John's victory (I shared in it but played very little of a part considering I was recruited the night before I died). Also, I note with some amusement I handed you guys JHT's endgame strategy on a silver platter and it went completely overlooked because I happened to flip scum:

As for alternate candidates, I'm still aboard the JHT train. JHT's vote on khaan tells me very little, and he's bussed people in the past.

All that aside, I hope everyone enjoyed their experience and will stick around for a while, maybe even for a game that has a more .Org-specific meta than an apparently standardized one. Once again, GG all, congrats to John, and thanks Visor for hosting!

[Winston Hughes]

Good game, really enjoyed it. Thanks to everyone, and especially to all the new and returning players, for making it so.

Just tries too hard.

For future reference:

Trying hard =/= scumtell

johnhughthom alive at lylo = scumtell