Official Org Star Wars Reaction Thread (Spoilers)

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Apart from being emotionally stunted in their self enforced emotional and physical eunuch existence, Jedi are also mathematically inept.

Balance 1000 Jedi, 2 Sith

Answers
A) 501 of each
B) 1000 of each
C) two of each is Ben, Yoda the Emperor and Darth Vader

Incorrect answers 1000 Jedi and no Sith.

This is wrong because of this:

I don't see why they would necessarily need to be physical eunuchs. The rule is against attachment so I suppose a Jedi could have a bunch of one night stands.

I think the Jedi view of bringing balance to the force was a removal of the dark side that corrupted or unbalanced it. So not so much of a balance between the light and dark side as some other concept of balance that involves only the light side.

The Jedi very clearly see the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force and if you sweep away the computer games and the paper RPG's and get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films that makes sense.

The Force is neither good nor evil, Jedi are neither good nor evil.

If you actually look at what the Jedi do they're nothing like the character you play in KOTOR to get max lightside points. Yes, JEdi believe in things like Justice and reciprocity because those are forces for balance.

Contrast this with the Sith, who want power and always more of it, and always more direct control over others. What's more, the Sith do things like blow up planets which directly disturbs the natural flow of the force by destroying billions of lifeforms.

There's also no real evidence that the Jedi are emotionally stunted. The Jedi are monks, monks are celibate and do not form strong bonds outside their orders as a matter of course. Saying that the Jedi Code makes Jedi emotionally stunded is to say that all monks are emotionally stunted.

That would include real-life figures like the Dali Lama and the current Pope.

You're being silly, Pape.

[Montmorency]

get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films

If you actually look at what the Jedi do

I think you may have just come up with a melange of numerous different interpretations scattered across the Expanded Universe, cause it's sure as heck that none of what you said shows up in the Lucas films.

[Hooahguy]

I finally saw the movie, loved it. My little brother did spoil that Han Solo dies but other than that I was very pleasently surprised at how good the movie was. The casting was great, as was the cinematography. Like the scene where Han Solo and Kylo Ren face off on the walkway, that scene was just fantastic. The whole Starkiller base thing felt a bit tired but I felt it didnt really take anything away from the movie as a whole. Overall great movie.

[a completely inoffensive name]

This is wrong because of this:



The Jedi very clearly see the Dark Side as a corruption of the Force and if you sweep away the computer games and the paper RPG's and get down to what Lucas actually wrote in the films that makes sense.

The Force is neither good nor evil, Jedi are neither good nor evil.

If you actually look at what the Jedi do they're nothing like the character you play in KOTOR to get max lightside points. Yes, JEdi believe in things like Justice and reciprocity because those are forces for balance.

Contrast this with the Sith, who want power and always more of it, and always more direct control over others. What's more, the Sith do things like blow up planets which directly disturbs the natural flow of the force by destroying billions of lifeforms.

There's also no real evidence that the Jedi are emotionally stunted. The Jedi are monks, monks are celibate and do not form strong bonds outside their orders as a matter of course. Saying that the Jedi Code makes Jedi emotionally stunded is to say that all monks are emotionally stunted.

That would include real-life figures like the Dali Lama and the current Pope.

You're being silly, Pape.

George Lucas thought out very little besides the idea that Jedi are the space equivalent of knights in shining armor.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think you may have just come up with a melange of numerous different interpretations scattered across the Expanded Universe, cause it's sure as heck that none of what you said shows up in the Lucas films.

So Qui-Gon frees all the slaves, does he? Gets Jabba the Hutt locked up?

No, he doesn't.

It's very clear that we see as "Good and Evil" the Jedi see as "The Force and the Dark Side"

Go on, try to find the words "Light Side" in Lucas' films.

I'm certain you won't find a single quote, certainly not from a Jedi. The closest I can find is Luke asking "How will I know the Good side from the Bad?" in TESB, but Luke is an idiot for most of TESB.

Here:

https://youtu.be/infZSKB5L9I

Yoda only talks about a Dark Side of the Force, Luke then interprets that as a Light and Dark Side but Yoda never describes a "Light Side".

George Lucas thought out very little besides the idea that Jedi are the space equivalent of knights in shining armor.

Sorry, but he really did think about it quite hard - the original Star Wars movies have this underpinning called the "Heroic Story", the who thing was envisaged quite clearly by Lucas. That's why the Prequals are so boring, with all that government.

Yeah, I know the a lot of the Prequals are really badly executed and a lot of it's boring to watch. Ever watched your actually Senate debate something? Not exciting, is it?

[Montmorency]

You are incorrect in you resonse to ACIN; Lucas put a lot of time and "thought", into the films over the years, but a coherent narrative never emerged beyond the imagery and family themes that Luxas was obsessed with.

It's well-established that Qui-gon is an imbecile on par with Jar Jar, deranged fantasy conspiracies notwithstanding.

Also note: how can Palpatine show Luke a "Dark Side of the Force" without implying another "side" of the Force? At a minimum, it would mean that the Jedi uphold the so-called Grey Side and that there have indeed been some wacky Eremites doing who-knows-what - perhaps writing Star Wars novels?

What's really going on is that Lucas has a jejune intellect.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Much anger I sense in you Montmorency. Disappointed by the Prequels you were. Clouded your judgement it has.

You accused me from drawing on the EU but the "Light Side" is a product of the EU, it isn't mentioned in any of Lucas' films. In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

Whether you think Lucas' cosmology is silly or Naive is beside the point. Obi Wan says it to Anakin in Episode III "You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!"

So the Jedi prophecy of the Chosen One says he will destroy the Sith - and that's the last thing Vader does before he dies. There are only two Sith, Vader repents and then kills the Emperor.

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

You're right, it's not deep on a philosophical level, I never said it was. The people who are literally trying the find the balance-point on a cosmic scale are the ones trying to make it deep, not me.

As I said, the Jedi are not "Good" as a polar opposite to "Evil", the Jedi are just servants of the Force who appear Good because they are in opposition to the Sith, who are Evil.

[Montmorency]

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

Or you could say that this balance was only available because Anakin enabled the elimination of the Jedi first.

In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

You haven't acknowledged what I said about this. Leaving aside the question of perspective (since there is actually very little movie dialogue discussing the nature of the Force vis-a-vis the Jedi and the Sith, most being concentrated in the last prequel between Yoda and Palps), there is nothing that entails a binary, whether Light vs. Dark or Balance vs. Imbalance. In fact, the way the storyverse is set up from just the films, it would be rather simple to reduce the question to a political-ideological disagreement between groups and individuals with built-in expansions to their coercive capacity.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Or you could say that this balance was only available because Anakin enabled the elimination of the Jedi first.

Except that the experience of facing the Emperor and rejecting his passions is what finally makes Luke a Jedi.

If you're looking for real balance then all the Jedi and Sith would have to die - no more Force users at all, just normal people.

You haven't acknowledged what I said about this. Leaving aside the question of perspective (since there is actually very little movie dialogue discussing the nature of the Force vis-a-vis the Jedi and the Sith, most being concentrated in the last prequel between Yoda and Palps), there is nothing that entails a binary, whether Light vs. Dark or Balance vs. Imbalance. In fact, the way the storyverse is set up from just the films, it would be rather simple to reduce the question to a political-ideological disagreement between groups and individuals with built-in expansions to their coercive capacity.

As far as I can tell The Dark Side is an evil, unnatural, and corrupting influence in the Star Wars galaxy.

Yoday says "A Jedi uses the Force only for knowledge and defence, never for attack." When Luke asks why Yoda replies "there is no 'why'".

Like I said, I never claimed it was clever but as far as I can tell the "Dark Side" is what you get when thinking, self reflective, beings learn to use the Force and then use it in anger. When a Jedi gets angry he falls into some form of self sustaining and exponentially deepening rage spiral that warps him and the flow of the Force around him. This is why Palatine becomes horribly disfigured when the dark side energy he projects is reflected back at him, or why Anakin's eyes turn yellow after he massacres all the Jedi. The Dark side also seems to "stain" places, like the cave of Dagobah.

[Montmorency]

Except that the experience of facing the Emperor and rejecting his passions is what finally makes Luke a Jedi.

If you're looking for real balance then all the Jedi and Sith would have to die - no more Force users at all, just normal people.

For more than 3 decades, it has been universally accepted that whatever Luke is said to have done after the events of ROTJ, it involved a thorough break with the institutional and philosophical character of the (Old) Jedi. The prequels served as the greatest reinforcement to this interpretation.

There's no indication that there were no other Force users in the original trilogy, or that there could not be. In fact, Luke's story strongly suggests otherwise, unless Force ability really is just a result of Lovecraftian bad breeding.

The Dark side also seems to "stain" places, like the cave of Dagobah.

So how did that come about? Did Yoda have a temporary breakdown there? Or is it that you don't necessarily need a Sith or any other Dark Side "user" for (what is called) the Dark Side to manifest, leading again to a view of an impersonal Force that Force-sensitives then evaluate according to personal disposition?

My conclusion is that ultimately the Lucas films are too simple, muddled, and incomplete for your analysis to really be consistent unless you bring in outside material.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For more than 3 decades, it has been universally accepted that whatever Luke is said to have done after the events of ROTJ, it involved a thorough break with the institutional and philosophical character of the (Old) Jedi. The prequels served as the greatest reinforcement to this interpretation.

I'll grant you the old EU Jedi are different to the Prequel Jedi but at the time the Jedi Academy series was written Jedi were not canonically monks, the OT makes no mention of Anakin's children being scandalous so it was assumed Jedi were allowed to marry.

Consider this line towards the end of RotJ.

"You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me."

Luke says that line after he cuts of Vader's hand, he then rejects his passions, throws away his lightsaber and at that point declares himself a Jedi. Up until then it's been an open question which way Luke will go, the whole film is about the question of whether or not he can overcome the Dark Side and become a Jedi.

There's no indication that there were no other Force users in the original trilogy, or that there could not be. In fact, Luke's story strongly suggests otherwise, unless Force ability really is just a result of Lovecraftian bad breeding.

On his death bed Yoda tell Luke that he will be the last of the Jedi once he (Yoda) is gone. He doesn't say he will be the last Force Use but I never said Anakin destroyed the Dark Side, I said he destroyed the Sith - who were a major Dark-Side faction.

[quote]So how did that come about? Did Yoda have a temporary breakdown there? Or is it that you don't necessarily need a Sith or any other Dark Side "user" for (what is called) the Dark Side to manifest, leading again to a view of an impersonal Force that Force-sensitives then evaluate according to personal disposition?

The conventional assumption is that Yoda chose the planet because of the Dark Side presence and that served to mask his own Force presence from the Emperor. That's not in the film but it's perhaps implied by Episode III

My conclusion is that ultimately the Lucas films are too simple, muddled, and incomplete for your analysis to really be consistent unless you bring in outside material.

If I were trying to say something complicated I might agree, but all I said was that there's no "Light Side" either mentioned or even really implied by the Jedi in the films and there's no reason to presume that "restoring Balance to the Force" means anything other than destroying the Sith.

Of course, the Jedi could be completely wrong and the prophecy just hokum but I actually think Lucas' core idea is that basic - destroy evil.

[Montmorency]

"You've failed your highness, I am a Jedi like my father before me."

That is one of the most straightforward lines to be sure, but I was saying that, even if Luke was one thing at the end of the trilogy, the EU coupled with the depiction of Republic-era Jedi in the prequels strongly suggests that he went his own way after not too long. It's not applicable of course, but the Disney-SW canon seems to be moving in that direction, perhaps with a dash of Revan.

On his death bed Yoda tell Luke that he will be the last of the Jedi once he (Yoda) is gone. He doesn't say he will be the last Force Use but I never said Anakin destroyed the Dark Side, I said he destroyed the Sith - who were a major Dark-Side faction.

You were saying that the existence of Dark-Siders was in itself a cause or source of imbalance.

The conventional assumption is that Yoda chose the planet because of the Dark Side presence and that served to mask his own Force presence from the Emperor.

Still, where did that presence come from? Was it always there? Did it spontaneously manifest? If so, did it happen during Yoda's stay? Did Yoda create it through his own struggles with anger and temptation? You can make scenarios that involve past struggles in that specific location, but there isn't really a need. For all we know, there was nothing special about the cave and Yoda merely induced a transcendental experience in Luke while he was out of sight.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is one of the most straightforward lines to be sure, but I was saying that, even if Luke was one thing at the end of the trilogy, the EU coupled with the depiction of Republic-era Jedi in the prequels strongly suggests that he went his own way after not too long. It's not applicable of course, but the Disney-SW canon seems to be moving in that direction, perhaps with a dash of Revan.

To be sure, the EU paints a radically different picture but my original point was exactly that - the picture of the Force in the EU isn't really supported by the films. As to Luke in Episode VII, it looks very much like he wetn "full Jedi" in retreating to a secluded world after his failed academy.

The fact he was training multiple apprentices is probably just expedience. Otherwise he might only train two in his entire life, or three at most and that would leave the Jedi tradition very fragile.

Having said that - it seems his strategy failed miserably. One possible explanation might be that multiple apprentices leads to competition and that form of striving is counter-productive to the monastic disciple of the Jedi. Just a thought.

You were saying that the existence of Dark-Siders was in itself a cause or source of imbalance.

Well this is kinda where the new trilogy is a bit sqished into the existing Lore - one interpretation might be that the Sith specifically causes a profound imbalance the way your "average" Dark Sider doesn't.

Dunno, I'm reading off what's in the original films and the prequels.

Still, where did that presence come from? Was it always there? Did it spontaneously manifest? If so, did it happen during Yoda's stay? Did Yoda create it through his own struggles with anger and temptation? You can make scenarios that involve past struggles in that specific location, but there isn't really a need. For all we know, there was nothing special about the cave and Yoda merely induced a transcendental experience in Luke while he was out of sight.

It's unlikely Yoda created it, he never exhibits a loss of control and he's old enough that he's probably worked his demons out centuries ago. We're never told anything about the cave at all, there have been multiple EU explanations, maybe it'll finally be explained in Rebels.

*Shrug*

[lars573]

Much anger I sense in you Montmorency. Disappointed by the Prequels you were. Clouded your judgement it has.

You accused me from drawing on the EU but the "Light Side" is a product of the EU, it isn't mentioned in any of Lucas' films. In Lucas' films there is the Force and the Dark Side of the Force.

Whether you think Lucas' cosmology is silly or Naive is beside the point. Obi Wan says it to Anakin in Episode III "You were the chosen one! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them!"

So the Jedi prophecy of the Chosen One says he will destroy the Sith - and that's the last thing Vader does before he dies. There are only two Sith, Vader repents and then kills the Emperor.

From this it is clear that the Sith are the cause of the imbalance. The imbalance is not caused not the numerical difference between the "Godd" Jedi and the "Evil" Sith.

You're right, it's not deep on a philosophical level, I never said it was. The people who are literally trying the find the balance-point on a cosmic scale are the ones trying to make it deep, not me.

As I said, the Jedi are not "Good" as a polar opposite to "Evil", the Jedi are just servants of the Force who appear Good because they are in opposition to the Sith, who are Evil.

Hmm, I sense your training is incomplete. For Lucas does in fact speak of a light side of the force (and indeed a grey ballance point in the middle). But you're correct not in the movies.

[Greyblades]

I like the EU idea that the dark side of the force is a method of developing force affinity that gives a quick and large power boost but in the end has limits whereas the light side is a slow growth method but with greater end potential.

[Beskar]

We all know that they are allegories for rural traditional life (light side) and urban industrialism (dark side).
Luke is some farm boy living his life on a backwards planet, and he is up against the evil dark side with their artificial moons and space cannons.
Luke works with nature, the moisture on his desert planet, to bring harmony and life to the creatures there. Whilst the dark side exploit the natural resources of planets to power their super weapons, and the wanton destruction of the peaceful ecological bliss of Alderaan.
As such, it is the same with the force. The light side is working with harmony within the living force, the dark side exploits it and powers themselves through its destruction.

[Greyblades]

I knew Lucas was a dirty hippy.

[lars573]

We all know that they are allegories for rural traditional life (light side) and urban industrialism (dark side).
Luke is some farm boy living his life on a backwards planet, and he is up against the evil dark side with their artificial moons and space cannons.
Luke works with nature, the moisture on his desert planet, to bring harmony and life to the creatures there. Whilst the dark side exploit the natural resources of planets to power their super weapons, and the wanton destruction of the peaceful ecological bliss of Alderaan.
As such, it is the same with the force. The light side is working with harmony within the living force, the dark side exploits it and powers themselves through its destruction.

And yet Anakin was raised on said same backwater desert planet. So really the difference is happy and secure childhood (Luke) vs unhappy insecure childhood (Anakin).

[Beskar]

And yet Anakin was raised on said same backwater desert planet. So really the difference is happy and secure childhood (Luke) vs unhappy insecure childhood (Anakin).

pre-sequels don't count.

[lars573]

According to the Mouse lords they do.

Also they're the better movies anyway.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hmm, I sense your training is incomplete. For Lucas does in fact speak of a light side of the force (and indeed a grey ballance point in the middle). But you're correct not in the movies.

According to the Mouse lords they do.

Also they're the better movies anyway.

Well - you're clearly insane.

But even allowing for that, Lucas authorised the Clone Wars - it is true - but they don't actually qualify as what used to be call "G" Canon. He didn't write every episode or oversee them all.

Remember, he also authorised The Force Unleashed but that got ditched for Rebels.

[lars573]

Actually Lucas did oversee the Clone Wars. And most mystical force ideas came from Lucas according to Dave Feloni.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

https://youtu.be/_YnKOptGhPk

this gives voice to a lot of my feelings.

Except I'm not as happy with Finn as he is.