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Thread: SYRIA thread

  1. #301
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Sarin isn't that hard to make, and the equipment not that hard to get, I can get everything you need in a day, and no I'm not kidding I am dead-serious. I can tell you where if you want, including adress and phone-number if you ask me nicely. Please don't start an xtc-trade that stuff is bad for you.

    Attack could really have come from anyone
    Last edited by Fragony; 04-20-2017 at 14:07.
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  2. #302
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Sarin isn't that hard to make, and the equipment not that hard to get, I can get everything you need in a day, and no I'm not kidding I am dead-serious. I can tell you where if you want, including adress and phone-number if you ask me nicely. Please don't start an xtc-trade that stuff is bad for you.

    Attack could really have come from anyone
    The Sarin would have had to have been ready - mixed for deployment for it to be a rebel stockpile.

    That's the point.
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  3. #303
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    The Sarin would have had to have been ready - mixed for deployment for it to be a rebel stockpile.

    That's the point.
    Offs I co-owner of the company that sells the means to supply the means to make that stuf, I got 200 square meters of pharmaceutical hardware instantly on your doorstep whenever you want it, and everybody knows where chemachils come from, a guy called van Amraat who is currently in jail, both Iraq and Syria. It's not hard, I can get you everything you want but I won't. But I can, not everybody shares my moral standards
    Last edited by Fragony; 04-20-2017 at 19:35.
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  4. #304
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Well, maybe the Syrian air force bombed them with chorine while Aum Shinrikyo remnants were releasing sarin on their village, on the behalf of the yakuza, as revenge for those Japanese hostages who were beheaded by ISIS a couple of years ago.
    Vitiate Man.

  5. #305
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    Well, maybe the Syrian air force bombed them with chorine while Aum Shinrikyo remnants were releasing sarin on their village, on the behalf of the yakuza, as revenge for those Japanese hostages who were beheaded by ISIS a couple of years ago.
    Can we agree on the notion that there were conclusions made really fast? When that M17 plane was shot down everybody went crazy, a picture was shown of a seperatist holding a pet-rabbit toy, my fellow-countryman emidiatly thought of it as if he was holding a trophy, I thought it was more 'wtf just happened', conclusions came so fast and so are they now. I was kinda dissapointed in fellow dutchies that they never considered that they might be misenterpetating things. Same situation here, we simply can't know if it was Assad who did this. First quesion, why would he, that's my first question
    Last edited by Fragony; 04-20-2017 at 19:58.
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  6. #306
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Consider that responding tit-for-tat to rebel groups that use chemical weapons against you is a low threshold if you've already used them in the past.

    Why not? Cheaper than many explosive munitions, more easy to source internally or with less administrative trail, little infrastructure damage...

    When you recall that chemical weapons are not weapons of war, as such, their occasional and selective use to cause disruption and suffering among the enemy makes more than enough sense.
    Vitiate Man.

  7. #307
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Would you risk tbe outrage? Ultimatily Assad wants to stay in power, other atrocities he commited never harmed that in the end, we take conventional atrocities for granted, they don't even shock us anymore, we shrug and get groceries. A chemical or biological attack is a stement, and I wonder why someone felt the need to make it. I would bereally surprised if it was Assad, he has more than enough cruelty on his hands to need such a gesture and nothing to gain from it
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  8. #308
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Would you risk tbe outrage? Ultimatily Assad wants to stay in power, other atrocities he commited never harmed that in the end, we take conventional atrocities for granted, they don't even shock us anymore, we shrug and get groceries. A chemical or biological attack is a stement, and I wonder why someone felt the need to make it. I would bereally surprised if it was Assad, he has more than enough cruelty on his hands to need such a gesture and nothing to gain from it
    A fair point to consider.
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  9. #309
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    A fair point to consider.
    Please do, enough mistakes have been made already and we all lose
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  10. #310
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    My tone was uncharitable, but I just followed the conclusions of the analysis, which were that the Syrian army had since the beginning of the war become less professional, less focused on its own infantry ranks than on paramilitaries, but that this had in the specific context of the fractured Syrian battlescape allowed it to be more flexible and shield itself from the worst casualties.

    I did not say that it was more inactive than in the past, but did mean to suggest that it was less conventionally effective.

    Not sure what you are trying to say about sectarianism. So that's just right. As opposed to 5 years ago, the commissioned ranks clearly seem to be more homogeneous in denomination.
    Makes sense.

    As for the last part, that it is more homogenous in denomination makes it as sectarian as almost every military institution in the region. Assad was cornered and showed his true colors like his counterparts in the region possessed by default. It's just interesting that this has been labelled a sectarian operation mostly due to the war, or else it would be (rightfully) stamped to other states as well.

    Basically, he became what the rebels have accused him of being for years and hardly by choice.

  11. #311
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    What's your take? Interested in it, I'm only a clown if things aren't serious. It's all really confusing and musings won't do anymore. Where is our resident Syrian when you need him I don't understand things anymore
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  12. #312
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    One thing to consider is that sarin doesn't have to be a binary agent. All sarin Syrian government surrendered was binary, but that doesn't mean that low grade sarin terrorists produce is binary also, in which case an explosion would disperse the gas with lethal effects.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Where is our resident Syrian
    We have a resident Syrian?

  13. #313
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    One was looking for computer advice in the Tech forum recently. That one? Or Dariush? I don't think he identified as a Syrian, did he?
    Vitiate Man.

  14. #314
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    What's your take? Interested in it, I'm only a clown if things aren't serious. It's all really confusing and musings won't do anymore. Where is our resident Syrian when you need him I don't understand things anymore
    There are many Syrians here, not one of them is pro-regime. Though to be fair, I don't think they'd let them in if they were suspected pro-regime. I have Libyan friends from both "sides," in my circle the girls are pro-Qaddafi and men pro-rebel which makes sense considering the state of women in Libya now. I think the same could be true for Syria, at least for feminists or the women who don't cover their heads.

    It's a shame because Syria was such a fun place, you'd like it. Ten years ago this was the vacation spot (like Morocco) where you could go for a drink and meet all kinds of Arabs/Assyrians without fear of being spotted by some bored relative.

  15. #315
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    One thing to consider is that sarin doesn't have to be a binary agent. All sarin Syrian government surrendered was binary, but that doesn't mean that low grade sarin terrorists produce is binary also, in which case an explosion would disperse the gas with lethal effects.
    Sarin won't keep when combined, so in order for it to have been from a Rebel stockpile it would have needed to be awaiting imminent deployment.

    In order for the narrative to be as the Russian suggest.

    We have a resident Syrian?
    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One was looking for computer advice in the Tech forum recently. That one? Or Dariush? I don't think he identified as a Syrian, did he?
    More properly our Assyrian in America.
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  16. #316
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    There are many Syrians here, not one of them is pro-regime. Though to be fair, I don't think they'd let them in if they were suspected pro-regime. I have Libyan friends from both "sides," in my circle the girls are pro-Qaddafi and men pro-rebel which makes sense considering the state of women in Libya now. I think the same could be true for Syria, at least for feminists or the women who don't cover their heads.

    It's a shame because Syria was such a fun place, you'd like it. Ten years ago this was the vacation spot (like Morocco) where you could go for a drink and meet all kinds of Arabs/Assyrians without fear of being spotted by some bored relative.
    When you say "here", at first I thought you meant the Org, but that can't be it. And I believe you said you're not in America any longer, right?

    By and by, this video might interest you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PVC
    More properly our Assyrian in America.
    RVG? Why? He hasn't been active in a few years.
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  17. #317
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Sarin won't keep when combined, so in order for it to have been from a Rebel stockpile it would have needed to be awaiting imminent deployment.

    In order for the narrative to be as the Russian suggest.
    Actually, no. Even low grade sarin, made of impure precursors, will keep for a few weeks, but back when chemical weapons were a thing, a lot of nations kept sarin in unitary state, adding stabilizer chemicals, like tributylamine and diisopropylcarbodiimide. Nations with access to better technology kept it in binary state, because it was safer, but that required more complicated mechanism of deployment.

    Even US kept both unitary and binary sarin. In the preparation for the Gulf War, CIA wrote a report that concluded that "CIA ANALYSTS BELIEVE THAT THE SHELF LIFE PROBLEM WAS ONLY TEMPORARY AND THAT THE IRAQIS CAN NOW PRODUCE UNITARY AGENTS OF SUFFICIENT QUALITY BY ADDING A STABILIZER OR IMPROVING THE PRODUCTION PROCESS."

    Sarin used by terrorists is usually of low-grade, unitary kind (like in Tokyo terror attack) because they lack the expertise and technology to keep it binary and make effective firing mechanism. The unitary sarin has simple deployment - destroy the container and gas gets released.

    More properly our Assyrian in America.
    Well, he is really not a resident Syrian.
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 04-21-2017 at 08:20.

  18. #318
    Needs more flowers Moderator drone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    One was looking for computer advice in the Tech forum recently. That one? Or Dariush? I don't think he identified as a Syrian, did he?
    I believe Dariush is Iranian. And I'm pretty sure Leith has never posted in the Backroom.
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  19. #319
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    The contortions and goalpost moving from the Putin bots...
    It never happened, it was all fake footage by the rebels, who are all terrorists!
    Disproven.
    It wasn't sarin, it was only chlorine!
    Disproven.
    If it was sarin, it was rebel sarin accidentally released by the bombing!
    Disproven.
    If sarin can't be released accidentally, rebels must be making their own sarin! They must have found a way to store it by means of adding a stabilising chemical, yes, that's it!
    When this is disproven too, no doubt they'll be blaming it on aliens.
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  20. #320
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    The contortions and goalpost moving from the Putin bots...
    It never happened, it was all fake footage by the rebels, who are all terrorists!
    Disproven.
    It wasn't sarin, it was only chlorine!
    Disproven.
    If it was sarin, it was rebel sarin accidentally released by the bombing!
    Disproven.
    If sarin can't be released accidentally, rebels must be making their own sarin! They must have found a way to store it by means of adding a stabilising chemical, yes, that's it!
    When this is disproven too, no doubt they'll be blaming it on aliens.
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  21. #321
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    The contortions and goalpost moving from the Putin bots...
    It never happened, it was all fake footage by the rebels, who are all terrorists!
    Disproven.
    It wasn't sarin, it was only chlorine!
    Disproven.
    If it was sarin, it was rebel sarin accidentally released by the bombing!
    Disproven.
    If sarin can't be released accidentally, rebels must be making their own sarin! They must have found a way to store it by means of adding a stabilising chemical, yes, that's it!
    When this is disproven too, no doubt they'll be blaming it on aliens.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokyo_subway_sarin_attack
    was Putin as well
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  22. #322
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Last edited by Elmetiacos; 04-21-2017 at 19:43.
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  23. #323
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    ? YOU pretend that Sarin can be produce only by a State. Who produce Sarin in Tokyo's attack... A SECT!!!.
    So, come back with something better than a distraction, as funny it is, you are the one using the tactic...
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  24. #324
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    The contortions and goalpost moving from the Putin bots...
    It never happened, it was all fake footage by the rebels, who are all terrorists!
    Disproven.
    It wasn't sarin, it was only chlorine!
    Disproven.
    If it was sarin, it was rebel sarin accidentally released by the bombing!
    Disproven.
    If sarin can't be released accidentally, rebels must be making their own sarin! They must have found a way to store it by means of adding a stabilising chemical, yes, that's it!
    When this is disproven too, no doubt they'll be blaming it on aliens.

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  25. #325
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    The contortions and goalpost moving from the Putin bots...
    It isn't really news. The first time I saw this tactics employed at Crimea's annexation. Then it has been repeatedly used by the Kremlin the most notable (for the West) occurence being MH 17. As for representation of Ukrainian events for Russian (and Ukrainian) audience it is a must.

  26. #326
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    It's so cute you guys believe you are so perceptive to see through that all that bs.

  27. #327
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    It's so cute you guys believe you are so perceptive to see through that all that bs.
    It is no less cute that you believe you are so perceptive you can discern us seeing through that all.

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  28. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    ? YOU pretend that Sarin can be produce only by a State. Who produce Sarin in Tokyo's attack... A SECT!!!.
    So, come back with something better than a distraction, as funny it is, you are the one using the tactic...
    No, I have not said that only a state can produce Sarin. It is a fact, however, that the Syrian state produced chemical weapons before the war and therefore much more likely that any Sarin would be pre-existing stock, which therefore would be binary agents impossible to release by bombing the storage facilities. It's possible that one or more rebel factions have made more chemical weapons, but it's again much more likely that they would copy the established techniques including binary agents rather than successfully embark on a new research pathway to allow Sarin be stored ready for use. The Russian claims therefore stay ridiculous: again the issue is not how easy it is to make chemical weapons, but how likely it is they could be released accidentally.
    Last edited by Elmetiacos; 04-24-2017 at 16:32. Reason: embrark?
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  29. #329
    Senior Member Senior Member Othello Champion Montmorency's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Babington Macaulay
    The violence of revolutions is generally proportioned to the degree of the maladministration which has produced them
    Something about this aphorism seems inadequate.
    Vitiate Man.

  30. #330
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Syria

    Quote Originally Posted by Elmetiacos View Post
    No, I have not said that only a state can produce Sarin. It is a fact, however, that the Syrian state produced chemical weapons before the war and therefore much more likely that any Sarin would be pre-existing stock, which therefore would be binary agents impossible to release by bombing the storage facilities. It's possible that one or more rebel factions have made more chemical weapons, but it's again much more likely that they would copy the established techniques including binary agents rather than successfully embark on a new research pathway to allow Sarin be stored ready for use. The Russian claims therefore stay ridiculous: again the issue is not how easy it is to make chemical weapons, but how likely it is they could be released accidentally.
    1) there were reports of Al Nusra making sarin and using it before (long before this attack)
    2) reports mentioned sarin was being produced in Iraq
    3) unitary sarin was actually produced first, a long time ago, it is not a "new research path"
    4) binary sarin is more advanced, more complicated to produce and harder to deploy. To deploy unitary sarin you just break the container. For binary, you have to have a complicated mechanism to make sure the precursors mix at the right time. Even Iraqi army in the Gulf War had troubles with that. Google for reports US soldier surviving sarin attacks almost unscathed because of faulty mechanism. Iraqis used unitary sarin for the most part.
    5) Al Nusra and other terrorist groups have a large number of ex Baathist in their ranks

    About 2013 Aleppo attack, a UN commission concluded that there was not enough evidence to say with certainty who perpetrated the attack, but a day before, Carla Del Ponte came out and said that the available evidence, witness testimonies, medical reports etc... suggested it was the rebels who actually did it. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-22424188. Immediately after the attack, everyone was certain it was Assad. There was no other possibility. And then the investigation says, "we can't say for sure, but it was most likely not Assad".

    You may wanna familiarize yourself with stuff before you take such an uncompromising stance. Seriously, just use google. It's a great start. Some interesting keywords : Assad, Syria, Iraq, gas, sarin, Aleppo, UN, Al Nusra, ISIS, OPCW... mix and match, see what you get.

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