Meaning of Islam

[Fragony]

Define islam.

What it means, submission



Created new thread for this topic. - Beskar

[Pannonian]

Define islam.

From the official statement by ISIS on the Brussels attacks:

"First we want to make it clear to all that what makes the kafir’s blood permissiable to spill is not him fighting the Muslims, rather it is his “KUFR” that necessitates his killing. So if one asks, can you kill a Kafir (who does not fight Islamand muslims)? the answer is a big YES."

In other words, nothing that we do or don't do will affect whether or not we will be targeted. Even if we do nothing whatsoever to upset Muslims and the middle eastern countries, the fact that we are "other" means we are legitimate targets for killing.

http://heavy.com/news/2016/03/offici...h-translation/

[AE Bravo]

What it means, submission

Wrong.

[Fragony]

Wrong.

Nope, literally means it. I am glad most muslims are really nice but islam itself is sick, and as welcome as the inquisition

[Snowhobbit]

Nope, literally means it. I am glad most muslims are really nice but islam itself is sick, and as welcome as the inquisition

Isn't it one of those words with multiple meanings? I think it means peace as well as a bunch of other things.

[AE Bravo]

Nope, literally means it. I am glad most muslims are really nice but islam itself is sick, and as welcome as the inquisition

I'm sure you feel that way, but that's not what it literally means. Nobody would be thinking this if it wasn't for Van Gogh films, Geert Wilders, or other anti-Islam stuff.

[Pannonian]

I'm sure you feel that way, but that's not what it literally means. Nobody would be thinking this if it wasn't for Van Gogh films, Geert Wilders, or other anti-Islam stuff.

Or even the official statement from the group claiming responsibility for the attacks.

[AE Bravo]

Or even the official statement from the group claiming responsibility for the attacks.

Where does it say that Islam means submission?

I couldn't care less about what they say, but it probably doesn't say that.

[Beskar]

I remember coming across as Islam as being "Submission before God/Allah", meant in a similar manner that a Christian is theologically submissive to God/Jesus.

A quick google search confirmed this. even one aptly named "Submission.org" which describes it as the following:

Submission or Islam in the Arabic language is a meaning or a description rather than a name or a title. It describes the state of mind of anyone who recognizes God’s absolute authority, and reaches a conviction that God alone possesses all power; no other entity possesses any power or control independent of Him. The logical consequence of such a realization is to devote one’s life and one’s worship absolutely to God alone.

So, Submission (or Islam in Arabic language) is a spiritual state of mind and not a title of a religion that belongs to a specific group of people. ANYONE who submits and worships one God without idolizing other entities is a Submitter by definition (Muslim in Arabic language).

This state of mind basically conforms with God’s one and only message He delivered to man-kind through all of His messengers since Noah; worship God alone and avoid idolatry. Based on that, one can safely conclude that the message of Islam or Submission has been in existence way before the time of prophet Muhammad and way before Quran. All God’s messengers, since Noah, devoted their lives and worship to God alone and were Submitters to Him alone.

So Fragony is correct that "Islam" means "Submission" in this context However, the key word is Context. It does not mean that the role or goal of islam is to go out and make everyone submit (becoming Muslim) as what is being implied, but it named after the religious stance that the followers of Islam submit to the will of God/Allah.

As for the Peace, a Q&A website makes note of the following:

The Arabic word salaam (سلام) ("Peace") has the same root as the word Islam. One Islamic interpretation is that individual personal peace is attained by utterly submitting to Allah.

As in other Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism, etc.), peace is a basic concept in Islamic thought.

The greeting "Salaam alaykum", favoured by Muslims, has the literal meaning "Peace be upon you". Muhammad is reported to have said once: "Not one of you believes until he loves for his brother what he loves for himself." (Great Muslim scholars have said that the words ‘his brother’ mean any person irrespective of faith.)

[Pannonian]

Where does it say that Islam means submission?

I couldn't care less about what they say, but it probably doesn't say that.

It says that the relations with the kufar begin with the default position of it being permissible, nay necessary, to kill us, not for what we've done, but for what we are. There may be various modifiers to this, but if in doubt, kill. And perhaps it would be a good idea to pay attention to what they say, since they're the ones acting and all.

[Fragony]

I'm sure you feel that way, but that's not what it literally means. Nobody would be thinking this if it wasn't for Van Gogh films, Geert Wilders, or other anti-Islam stuff.

It means that, sorry I can't change that. Being anti-islam is just sane imho, but I will admit that Wilders and van Gogh are/were sometimes needlesly offensive

[Sarmatian]

It says that the relations with the kufar begin with the default position of it being permissible, nay necessary, to kill us, not for what we've done, but for what we are. There may be various modifiers to this, but if in doubt, kill. And perhaps it would be a good idea to pay attention to what they say, since they're the ones acting and all.

So, your big revelation is that a terrorist organization won't forbid its members from targeting civilians?

STOP THE PRESSES!

[Fragony]

Not forbidding and demanding, bit of a difference

[Pannonian]

So, your big revelation is that a terrorist organization won't forbid its members from targeting civilians?

STOP THE PRESSES!

A group that claims all Muslims as part of its nation, which a fair number of our residents agree with, says that kufar should be killed by virtue of our being kufar. There is no political goal in terms of defining a location in which we're unfairly intervening, resulting in violence aiming to remove us from our interference in these matters. By their own words, by simply existing, we are already deserving to be killed. I'm not sure why you're looking to downplay this.

[Husar]

In other words, nothing that we do or don't do will affect whether or not we will be targeted.

Wrong.
You could convert.




Sorry, I had to.

[AE Bravo]

It means that, sorry I can't change that. Being anti-islam is just sane imho, but I will admit that Wilders and van Gogh are/were sometimes needlesly offensive

It's the way you presented it. You made it out to imply the forced submission of others when it actually means submitting yourself to higher power, which is exactly the opposite of telling people what to do.

[Greyblades]

If we're going to have this discussion we should bring out the big guns early.



And by big guns i mean informative and or propagandistic videos!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Define islam.

Submission to Divine Will.

Next?

[Pannonian]

It's the way you presented it. You made it out to imply the forced submission of others when it actually means submitting yourself to higher power, which is exactly the opposite of telling people what to do.

Or, as the Caliphate defines it, and as it's been defined in practice, the divide is between those who are of their group, who deserve to live, and everyone else, who deserve to die. I can say that I will never be part of the first group.

[AE Bravo]

By "caliphate" standards me and every Muslim I know is a heretic. I would be beheaded before you are for being a fake Muslim.

[AE Bravo]

Most of you are a bunch of haters anyway, just forget what I said. Get a life too, and try fixing your problems instead of drumming them up.

[Sarmatian]

A group that claims all Muslims as part of its nation,

And the Chinese emperors claimed to be the rulers of the entire world for the last 2500 thousand years. Didn't affect your or mine ancestors all that much.

which a fair number of our residents agree with,

A grand total of a few hundred. If I were a betting man, I'd bet more of your residents believe Stonehenge was built by the aliens.

says that kufar should be killed by virtue of our being kufar. There is no political goal in terms of defining a location in which we're unfairly intervening, resulting in violence aiming to remove us from our interference in these matters. By their own words, by simply existing, we are already deserving to be killed.

If that was the case, they'd be trying to kill Bolivians and Mongols as well.

I'm not sure why you're looking to downplay this.

Because I refuse to hold 1.2 billion people responsible for the actions of the few? Because I'd hate if someone held me responsible if a member of my race/religion/nationality did something despicable? Why aren't you equating me with Mladic? He executed unarmed prisoners. I'm a Serb, a Christian, just like him.

Because I've seen what fear can do to people? Maybe it is because I would take my family away from the war and I wouldn't want someone to tell my I'm not allowed because of my name or religion. Or it could be that my best friend, who is a Muslim (culturally, in reality he's an atheist) had to give his son a Christian name so that he would actually be allowed on a plane. Because of the very vivid stories of how cruel can people be in the name of their faith or nation? Because I was raised in a very culturally diverse region and seen it work, even under pressure? Just a few days ago, a Hungarian fascist party Jobik tried to open up offices in northern Serbia (or Southern Hungary, just temporarily lost, as they like to refer to it). And who told them to **** off? Local Hungarians. Ah, it was beautiful to watch.

I don't know, really. Probably all of those reasons, and some that didn't come to mind instantly.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Most of you are a bunch of haters anyway, just forget what I said. Get a life too, and try fixing your problems instead of drumming them up.

Funny, I think you're the third Muslim in a year to tell us all that - we're all haters of Muslims, regardless of what else divides us.

Anyway.

Islam means literally "submission" and in this context it means "submission to God".

This has a couple of implications - firstly it allows Muslims to expand their definition of "Islam" to include those who do not consider themselves Muslim but are monotheists. Historically this has meant Christians and Jews initially, followed by Zorastrians. HOWEVER, the long term goal it not only to bring everyone to a state of Submission, it is also to bring them into a "correct" form of Submission - i.e. to make them Muslims.

Muhammed did this by war - he destroyed idles (as IS has) and he forced people to submit to his interpretation of God's Law (as IS does).

The major difference between IS and the traditional depiction of those first Muslims Conquests is the level of brutality and the fact that monotheists are included among the Kafir.

[Brenus]

"Submission to Divine Will" Not according some French Muslim scholars. I could try to put a link but it is in French, so would be lost. Roughly, the linguist explains that Islam as the same roots that "shalom" or "Salaam".
The "submission to Divine" explanation is favoured by the ones like Tarik Ramadan, grand son of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, but nothing comes to back-up his claim.

[Fragony]

It's the way you presented it. You made it out to imply the forced submission of others when it actually means submitting yourself to higher power, which is exactly the opposite of telling people what to do.

How can I present it otherwise than it's litteral meaning. What you think you read is up to you, not me

[Gilrandir]

Just a few days ago, a Hungarian fascist party Jobik tried to open up offices in northern Serbia (or Southern Hungary, just temporarily lost, as they like to refer to it). And who told them to **** off? Local Hungarians. Ah, it was beautiful to watch.

Jobik didn't know its way about such things. They should have started with propaganda among the locals on how oppressed they are culturally and linguistically and how free and much better off economically they would be if they join the Greater Hungary. They should refer to Russia's experience as the most recent paragon of such policies.

[AE Bravo]

How can I present it otherwise than it's litteral meaning. What you think you read is up to you, not me

Read the post above you. The meaning is contested depending on whether you're moderate, brotherhood, etc.

Personally, I haven't met anyone who is comfortable saying his religion literally means "submission."

[Fragony]

Read the post above you. The meaning is contested depending on whether you're moderate, brotherhood, etc.

Personally, I haven't met anyone who is comfortable saying his religion literally means "submission."

But it does really mean that, submission isn't the same thing as submitting if that is what you could feel uncomfortable with

[Kralizec]

Well, acknowleding a Creator Deity as your master ("submitting") is a central tenet of all the Abrahamic religions, and presumably some unrelated religions as well.
Making a point of that Islam has decided to use this concept as the name of the religion seems pretty....odd. If this thread is to have any meaning at all it had better move beyond semantics.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"Submission to Divine Will" Not according some French Muslim scholars. I could try to put a link but it is in French, so would be lost. Roughly, the linguist explains that Islam as the same roots that "shalom" or "Salaam".
The "submission to Divine" explanation is favoured by the ones like Tarik Ramadan, grand son of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood, but nothing comes to back-up his claim.

I've never heard it suggested that "Islam" does not literally mean "submission", but I have heard different interpretations of the implications.

Read the post above you. The meaning is contested depending on whether you're moderate, brotherhood, etc.

Personally, I haven't met anyone who is comfortable saying his religion literally means "submission."

Really?

So today's Muslims are uncomfortable proclaiming their submission to God. That almost makes me feel sorry for Muhammed.