Meaning of Islam

[AE Bravo]

But it does really mean that, submission isn't the same thing as submitting if that is what you could feel uncomfortable with

It could mean one or the other or both, I don't know because I didn't invent Islam. What I do know is that you can't use it in a sentence to mean submission or peace, because the word is its own thing. So saying it literally means this one thing to prove a point is a fallacy.

It's a different word from salaam and istislam.

[Brenus]

"I've never heard it suggested that "Islam" does not literally mean "submission", but I have heard different interpretations of the implications." I find it. The guys said if Islam means submission, why the word Islam is not use in other sentences (i.e, submission to the law or to a principal)?
https://youtu.be/wOQjLCEA5-4. @ 37 mn. "Islam" can be translated (needs periphrases) as "put yourself in confidence and peace in"

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"I've never heard it suggested that "Islam" does not literally mean "submission", but I have heard different interpretations of the implications." I find it. The guys said if Islam means submission, why the word Islam is not use in other sentences (i.e, submission to the law or to a principal)?
https://youtu.be/wOQjLCEA5-4. @ 37 mn. "Islam" can be translated (needs periphrases) as "put yourself in confidence and peace in"

As with any translation you ultimately come out with a paraphrase - what striking about the word "Islam" is that it forms part of "istislam" which looks like a compound with "Islam".

The word "Submission" in English can have a number of meanings, the most current today is probably sexual, followed by the military context. However, the concept of "Submitting to God" carries neither of those connotations. If you're trying to nuance it make it sound like Islam is all about "Submitting to Allah" in a context of religious conflict then that's not the point, although it's equally dishonest to gloss over the religious motivation behind the early Muslim conquests.

[Brenus]

"If you're trying to nuance it make it sound like Islam is all about "Submitting to Allah" in a context of religious conflict then that's not the point, although it's equally dishonest to gloss over the religious motivation behind the early Muslim conquests." No. I try to be intellectually honest. A you know, I am an atheist and I am not the last to tell that Islam (the Book) is the bed for fanatic Islamic murderers, as nothing they do is actually forbidden (if not prized) but the Holly Scriptures.
It is a debate I have with good friends, some being Muslim and believers.
As mentioned earlier, the submission to the Will of a deity is something inherent to all religion: a Christian will pray and tell to God "Your will be done".
So, even is Islam means "Submission", well, so be it and so what?
However, what the ones who want absolutely this is the idea that Islam can't be changed as it is Submission. Of course it is wrong historically as Islam had the same process than Christianity, and even has a process called annulment, adopted when the Koran was gathered and put on a written form, from the longest to the shortest Surat, proof if you need one that it was not written when God was given instructions to the new prophet, but this is another debate. Safalism is a reactionary movement to modernisation of Islam, created in order to come back to the "roots". meaning by definition Islam was moving (and still).

[CrossLOPER]

Nope, literally means it. I am glad most muslims are really nice but islam itself is sick, and as welcome as the inquisition

Ah, so you are an authority figure? Do you have credentials? Several PhDs in Arabic, Islamic studies and whatnot? Perhaps some peer-reviewed literature? I mean you wouldn't claim to know something just because you heard something from some bloke, right? That would be dumb.

[Fragony]

Ah, so you are an authority figure? Do you have credentials? Several PhDs in Arabic, Islamic studies and whatnot? Perhaps some peer-reviewed literature? I mean you wouldn't claim to know something just because you heard something from some bloke, right? That would be dumb.

Few courses to harvest points, I only got degrees in psycholigy history and politoligy, convenient mix because of overlapsing

edit LOL I spelled politoici wrong, I must have been taking it very seriously, did it again just for fun

[Lizardo]

Ah, so you are an authority figure? Do you have credentials? Several PhDs in Arabic, Islamic studies and whatnot? Perhaps some peer-reviewed literature? I mean you wouldn't claim to know something just because you heard something from some bloke, right? That would be dumb.

Showtime and CrossLoper haven't submitted anything of value to this thread and judging by Showtimes post history never will. Showtime cant swallow the Truth, CrossLoper is a fool I dont have to be Chef to Cook great food and i certainly dont have to say the shahada to comment on Islam. CrossLoper is a hypocrit I've read some of the quran and it has more to say about Kuffars and unbelievers, people like me than anything else over 56 percent i believe, had to put it down and you can guess why
Please dont submit to their idiocy like they probs have to Islam.
Islam means Submission end of story.

[Husar]

Islam means peace.

[AE Bravo]

Showtime and CrossLoper haven't submitted anything of value to this thread and judging by Showtimes post history never will. Showtime cant swallow the Truth, CrossLoper is a fool I dont have to be Chef to Cook great food and i certainly dont have to say the shahada to comment on Islam. CrossLoper is a hypocrit I've read some of the quran and it has more to say about Kuffars and unbelievers, people like me than anything else over 56 percent i believe, had to put it down and you can guess why
Please dont submit to their idiocy like they probs have to Islam.
Islam means Submission end of story.

I see nothing of value in this post either, honestly.

Gotta say you're weird, pic and name says it all. You "probs" have to get it together, son.

[Snowhobbit]

I see nothing of value in this post either, honestly.

Gotta say you're weird, pic and name says it all. You "probs" have to get it together, son.

He is not wierd, he is simply the arbiter of our beloved forum. He has judged you not worthy, and thus we must banish you to the lands beyond our borders. What is wierd about that? :D

[Fragony]

Islam means peace.

Ever considered that 'islam is peace' really means 'submit or don't have it'.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Islam means peace.

Intellectually dishonest - even more so than saying it means "submission".

[Husar]

Ever considered that 'islam is peace' really means 'submit or don't have it'.

Is that a question or a statement?

Intellectually dishonest - even more so than saying it means "submission".

From an expert:

[Greyblades]

...he posted a video of a bunch of college age dweebs saying islam means peace... and you guys think he's being serious?

[Strike For The South]

Husar can't be adequately engaged on these issues, because he is a communist who values the idea of the nation state very little.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Is that a question or a statement?



From an expert:

So, in fact, it does not mean "peace".

I said it meant "Submission to Divine Will", perhaps I should have sait "Concordance with Divine Will" os something like that.

I stand by what I said, Islam means neither "peace" not "submission" in the mundane context - so cleave to one definition implies pacifism, the other militarism, and neither are correct.

[Husar]

Husar can't be adequately engaged on these issues, because he is a communist who values the idea of the nation state very little.

The nation state of Islam that we are talking about I certainly value very little.

So, in fact, it does not mean "peace".

I said it meant "Submission to Divine Will", perhaps I should have sait "Concordance with Divine Will" os something like that.

I stand by what I said, Islam means neither "peace" not "submission" in the mundane context - so cleave to one definition implies pacifism, the other militarism, and neither are correct.

I wasn't saying you're wrong, just that "Islam means Submission end of story." is probably a bit too simple.
The original question was also merely meant to have Fragony define Islam because he often uses it in a way 99% of the world's people do not use the word. Which means that he only agrees with ISIS and disagrees with the >90% of muslims who I assume do not want to kill us, telling them that they should if they want to be faithful. Either way, someone confused "define" with "translate" and here we are.

[Fragony]

My mouth isn't big enougn to fit so many words

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The nation state of Islam that we are talking about I certainly value very little.



I wasn't saying you're wrong, just that "Islam means Submission end of story." is probably a bit too simple.
The original question was also merely meant to have Fragony define Islam because he often uses it in a way 99% of the world's people do not use the word. Which means that he only agrees with ISIS and disagrees with the >90% of muslims who I assume do not want to kill us, telling them that they should if they want to be faithful. Either way, someone confused "define" with "translate" and here we are.

Wait...

Are we agreeing?

That makes no sense!

We must BOTH be wrong.

[Yesugey]

It depends what you mean by "true Islam".. As an Atheist, I believe only historians would guess what exactly happened at 6th century. Probably Mohammad was a wise guy who learnt a lot about Buddhist Mythology, and decided to create a philosophy.. And he wanted to keep it stronger by settling it as a religion instead. Or he actually created a philosophy, but it became a religion after he died. Or I don't know, he just wanted to rule a clan and made all these up just to have fun in Harem... Probably it's a mixture of all of these.

So just like all religions, it's rules are brutal for today's world. In Christianity, you must kill homosexuals, in Judaism you must cut the head of a virgin girl to prove yourself as a man, and in Islam, you can cut the head of an entire population, and take their wives.

And also like all religions, it become modernized. So the modern version of Islam is acceptable, but still a book of 6th century still affects some of the behaviors.

Hard part is it is a social and psychological argument, instead of logical. Moslems can live a modern life, just like Christians and Jews, because we are capable of showing illogical behaviors.

[Lizardo]

In christianity you must KILL HOMOSEXUALS, Judaism must cut off the head off a Virgin,. I dont think i want to wade through let alone step in your Bullshit.

[Yesugey]

In christianity you must KILL HOMOSEXUALS, Judaism must cut off the head off a Virgin,. I dont think i want to wade through let alone step in your Bullshit.

Um, I don't understand your negative reaction, those are completely acceptable behaviors of their time. I am not judging anything by the ethic rules of today.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Um, I don't understand your negative reaction, those are completely acceptable behaviors of their time. I am not judging anything by the ethic rules of today.

They're not accurate representations of the religions in question, nor are they actual prescripts of said religions. Perhaps you're re confusing a "Virgin's Head" and "Maidenhead".

Go take an anatomy class, in that case.

The only one you got right was the one about Islam with killing an entire tribe's men and taking all the women and children hostage - but that wasn't a directive so much as something we are told happened.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

...
The only one you got right was the one about Islam with killing an entire tribe's men and taking all the women and children hostage - but that wasn't a directive so much as something we are told happened.

This is the natural end result of a war. All efforts to make war less than this are well-intentioned but at least partially futile. History is replete with examples of such a result being the de facto norm.

[Pannonian]

This is the natural end result of a war. All efforts to make war less than this are well-intentioned but at least partially futile. History is replete with examples of such a result being the de facto norm.

It's called sacking.

[rory_20_uk]

All religions are Memes. So, the ultimate aim is to create more of oneself. Different religions do this by a mix of different vectors. For example, in early Christianity, there are other sects that were nowhere near a successful as Catholicism was since they restricted membership to Jews only. The Cathars were doomed by being pacifists and didn't stand a chance faced with violent Catholics.

Judaism is laced with examples of where the Jews slaughtered their way through other tribes. If not they might have gone the way of all the other extinct religions down the ages.

So with Islam there are many different strains competing with each other for hosts. Those that become too attenuated tend to loose out to the more aggressive ones.

I imagine the meaning of a religion varies almost by as many followers of the religion there are. We have (openly) gay Catholics now so people's ability to be flexible in their interpretation of the inflexible is great.

[Yesugey]

They're not accurate representations of the religions in question, nor are they actual prescripts of said religions. Perhaps you're re confusing a "Virgin's Head" and "Maidenhead".

Go take an anatomy class, in that case.

The only one you got right was the one about Islam with killing an entire tribe's men and taking all the women and children hostage - but that wasn't a directive so much as something we are told happened.

Um, all of them are correct.

In fact there was an activist group who reads passages from Bible on the streets of Amsterdam, and claims they are from Quran. Most people commented as "It's horrendously violent book and it must be banished." Then they reveal that these are actually from Bible.

So as I said, you must kill homosexuals to follow the true Christianity. But you will just follow the modern version of it. Just don't read Bible, it might mess your head.

[Husar]

So as I said, you must kill homosexuals to follow the true Christianity.

Explain why because I don't think that is correct.

[Pannonian]

Um, all of them are correct.

In fact there was an activist group who reads passages from Bible on the streets of Amsterdam, and claims they are from Quran. Most people commented as "It's horrendously violent book and it must be banished." Then they reveal that these are actually from Bible.

So as I said, you must kill homosexuals to follow the true Christianity. But you will just follow the modern version of it. Just don't read Bible, it might mess your head.

Europeans are considerably more passionate about their football than about their bible, and even there there are universally acknowledged limits and niceties. There are probably more supporters of any of the big clubs in England than there are regular churchgoers in the whole of England.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Explain why because I don't think that is correct.

It's demonstrably false - he's taking passage from Leviticus and trying to apply it to Christianity whilst ignoring the fact that "true" Christianity places an absolute ban on violence.