Israel Thread

[Idaho]

The context of this post is a couple of UK Labour party MPs being suspended for "anti-semitism" which to my mind looks more like clumsily articulated anti-zionism.

Israel is lucky in it's enemies. For every reasoned, compassionate, logical opponent of the occupation and the apartheid state, there are 3 nutters who come out with "jews=lizards and the holocaust never happened" type nonsense... or the more cynical would say that the media give 3 times as much coverage to the loons and breezes over the reasoned opponents.

So opposition to land grabs, removal of citizenship, home demolitions, detention without trial, destruction of infrastructure, separation of communities and families, etc are characterised as anti-semitic.

My question to those who say critical of Israel = anti-semitism; what would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

[Fragony]

As fair and justified critism I suppose. The critism isn't always fair and justified though, a lot of it.

[HopAlongBunny]

It would look like an empty glass?

[Strike For The South]

Naz Shah is more a victim of the runaway train that is identity politics, rather than anti-semtisim.

Labour can only blame themselves. There's an assassination piece on the independent right now whcih has all the trappings of vapid leftist journalism, only being employed by a right winger.

[Brenus]

A non anti-semitic criticism of Israel looks like the peace-now Israeli movement criticism. Quite easy.
You don't say Hitler had good reasons, you don't quote the "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion", or mention any international conspiracy.
You come with the right reason why you are against the actual Israeli's policy.
You treat Israel as a normal state, in confrontation with others for reason you analyse.
You don't pretend to be anti-Zionist in order to hind you are anti-Semitic.

A lot of lefties became anti-Semitic in being pro-Palestinian, the righties being anti-Semitic from birth.

[Greyblades]

Anti semetic, anti zionist, either way they're being extremely idiotic about how they express their criticism.

Poor Corbyn, he must be feeling the same sting Cameron does whenever one of his cabnet comes off as hating the working class.

[Papewaio]

It would look like an empty glass?

No country is perfect so we all have issues to deal with. First step is to look at points of commonality, shared interests and then look at the issues.

Even the Amish have internal conflicts, normally limited to cutting off each other's beards... So I'm sure there are issues in Israel even without looking at the elephant in the room.

Name me a country that is perfect and I'll show you a propaganda state... I'm looking at you North Korea.

[Fragony]

Question to OP, how are you just not admitting that anti-sematic critism on Israel just exists. I'd like to turn things around. Surily Israel can be critisezed or even hated. But why not hate the rest there or anywhere in the universe and surroundings. Perhaps there just happens to be a thing called anti-semitism?

[Husar]

Eh, most of the left doesn't like Israel because Israel is on the right, the country votes largely based on fear and therefore ultra-conservative, has people who believe they have a god-given right to take other peoples' land away (and are hardly stopped by the government when they do it) and so on. Show me another modern country that acts like that and is liked by most people. North Korea, Russia, ISIS?

I think the government has slowly come around to stopping the illegal settlement practices and at the same time it seems criticism has gone down...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The context of this post is a couple of UK Labour party MPs being suspended for "anti-semitism" which to my mind looks more like clumsily articulated anti-zionism.

Israel is lucky in it's enemies. For every reasoned, compassionate, logical opponent of the occupation and the apartheid state, there are 3 nutters who come out with "jews=lizards and the holocaust never happened" type nonsense... or the more cynical would say that the media give 3 times as much coverage to the loons and breezes over the reasoned opponents.

So opposition to land grabs, removal of citizenship, home demolitions, detention without trial, destruction of infrastructure, separation of communities and families, etc are characterised as anti-semitic.

My question to those who say critical of Israel = anti-semitism; what would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

So is this about Israel or about the problem Labour has with anti-Semitism?

As far as I can tell Naz Shah shared a facebook post which basically said that it would be cheaper, and safer, to ship the entire population of Israel to the US than keep funding Israel. Given that the context of the post was talking about defence spending I suspect the originator was American.

I haven't seen the post but if it was another one of those captioned images that swirl around facebook it probably wasn't intended to be entirely serious and Shah probably thought it was funny and sharing it would make her look witty.

Clearly she has been violently disabused of both notions, and has apologised. The fact that this has surfaced about a week before elections is unlikely to be a coincidence.

The response of the leadership has been pretty pitiful though - they tried to simultaneously condemn her remarks and excuse them, making her look worse and making a suspension and likely expulsion inevitable when it was perhaps not deserved.

On the other hand Ken Livingston is a card-carrying Anti-Semite. This is the man who compared a Jewish reporter to a Concentration Camp Guard, who said Jews would vote for him as London mayor because they were rich and has now suggested that Hitler plan to force Jews to leave Germany was "supporting Zionism".

He may not think he's an anti-Semite but can't see how anyone else could think that - he's clearly prejudiced against Jews, uncaring of recent history and prone to seeing them all through the most negative of stereotypes.

[InsaneApache]

Hitler.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Here's the sourse Livingstone is going to cite: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...srael-comments

Some Marxist from the 80's who, by the looks of it, was canting history pretty hard for his own agenda.

[Greyblades]

Hitler.

[InsaneApache]

Tell that to Mr. Newt.

[Greyblades]

Gingrich?

[HopAlongBunny]

The deafening silence of the U.S. allowed the first resolution since 1979 condemning Israeli settlement policy:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fea...090953898.html

[Idaho]

As settlements increase, the Israeli right are cementing control of the nation's politics. Palestinians are not considered citizens - with barely a tiny fraction of settler attacks on Palestinians being investigated :
Troops allow 5 day attack by settlers

Israeli police brutal beating of lorry driver caught on video

Also internal opposition by Israelis is being attacked by increasingly suspect tactics :
Attempt to collect data on Israelis who oppose occupation

The aim is clear. The maps don't lie. Nothing short of the ethic cleansing of the west Bank and the construction of greater Israel is planned.
israeli-settlements-explained-in-5-charts

And Gaza, too populated to be taken over is strangled slowly :
Israel tightens travel restrictions

Meanwhile Trump cancels all foreign aid except for Israel

[Sigurd]

[Greyblades]

Damn, how long had you been sitting on that bombshell?

[Kralizec]

I didn't realize that Idaho was an Arab nation

[Idaho]

Israel has always been lucky in its enemies.

It has a practiced and well drilled counter strategy. Firstly, don't talk about the allegations. Don't mention them at all. Then attack your attackers. Make the human rights in Algeria or Sudan or Qatar the issue.

[Idaho]

In the west bank, justice is meted out by Israeli military courts. They are testament to the detective skills of the occupying army as they have a close to 100% conviction rate.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.prem...F2AAA9788F2E59

[Sigurd]

Israel has always been lucky in its enemies.

It has a practiced and well drilled counter strategy. Firstly, don't talk about the allegations. Don't mention them at all. Then attack your attackers. Make the human rights in Algeria or Sudan or Qatar the issue.

Its like the saying of another famous Jew: "​Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone..."

[Pannonian]

Israel has always been lucky in its enemies.

It has a practiced and well drilled counter strategy. Firstly, don't talk about the allegations. Don't mention them at all. Then attack your attackers. Make the human rights in Algeria or Sudan or Qatar the issue.

TBF, its enemies are their own worst enemies. Israel is among the worst of the "western" countries on human rights, if it's considered a "western" country. However, it's by some distance the best of the "middle eastern" countries on the same terms, if it's considered a "middle eastern" country. Not because they're any good. But because the others, and more specifically Muslim countries, are far, far worse. Which makes it hard to care about Israel's undoubted abuses. IMHO we should just wall off the whole region and leave them to their own devices, without any judgement, and more importantly, without any action, from us. Pay what we have to for oil, and leave them alone otherwise.

[Hooahguy]

With the truce now over I have moved it to the Backroom where it belongs.

[LittleGrizzly]

Maybe someone can correct me on this and provide some really good reasons why it was done now right at the end of his final term in office....

But I can't help but feel this is just complete cowardice, Obama has decided to finally stand up and do the right thing now that there is very little chance it can harm him. Almost anybody can do the right thing in that situation.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Maybe someone can correct me on this and provide some really good reasons why it was done now right at the end of his final term in office....

But I can't help but feel this is just complete cowardice, Obama has decided to finally stand up and do the right thing now that there is very little chance it can harm him. Almost anybody can do the right thing in that situation.

Its just his way of flipping off Bebe on the way out. Not meant to be a substantive thing.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It's a bit more than that - it finally gets a resolution on the books, one voted for by everyone but the US. That sends a significant message to the people of Israel on both sides of the argument - settlement building is not acceptable, it is illegal.

It also provoked a reaction from the Israeli Government that frankly betrays just how bizarre their position is.

It's not as much as the World needs, but it's something, more than nothing.

[Hooahguy]

Unfortunately, Israeli society has taken a rather decidedly paranoid shift to the point where any shadow is seen as the monster in the closet. There are real threats of course, but I feel like a lot of it is overblown to gain political points or to keep Israeli society in a state of fear. For example, the response to the Iran deal. Back in the March 2014 elections, Bibi would have made you think a second Holocaust was arriving.