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  1. #31
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    You mean Arab countries don't match them in anything. "Muslim countries" is an overstatement. Also, Israel is an illegitimate country, an anachronism as long as the current regime stands. When it reforms its discrimination against its very own citizens as a democratic state than you can talk about how it has the right to do anything.

    Who knows, maybe they will someday.
    Israel is by some distance the best of an exceptionally bad bunch. It doesn't make them good by western standards. But it makes them very good indeed by middle eastern standards. It's probably best to accept them as a middle eastern country, and judge them by these standards, than to think of them as a western country and judge them by these standards.

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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    By international and middle eastern standards, Arab countries are better at tourism, immigration, and commercial policy. Israel takes the cake in terms of military and technology due to zealous western backing since its creation.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Your own for example, and the Polish weren't exactly very kind to Germans.

    love this animation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha3OS8ShYs what are we yapping about really
    I thought you jusdge a country by the standards of its time and not by comparatively ancient ones?
    That is why I asked about the many changes AFTER WW2, because in the time frame you linked to there was no Israeli state for the most part.
    If we're going to apply medieval standards now, how about we burn you as a witcher? I saw you flying around a clock tower tonight...

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    When Israel proclaimed its foundation it was made war upon at once before it started taking land form others. Later it happened again and again, not to mention constant terrorist attacks inside the country. Arab countries which border on Israel have an issue with the very existence of Israel. Wouldn't it make anyone talk smack of those who do it? A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.
    Israel was basically founded with a terror campaign and the establishment of the state was basically forced on a lot of people. I'm sorry that it surprises you that people are angry if something is forced upon them. The major reason Israelis are scared today is probably not that all the neighbors will invade again because it seems a lot of the neighbors have gotten used to it. What scares them are the terrorist organizations, some of which exist because Israelis settle on land these people formerly owned and others of which do indeed exist because of older grudges apparently.

    If you support Israel conquering land for security though, then surely you agree with Russia conquering Crimea to secure its harbor?


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  4. #34
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    By international and middle eastern standards, Arab countries are better at tourism, immigration, and commercial policy. Israel takes the cake in terms of military and technology due to zealous western backing since its creation.
    Funnily enough, most westerners don't have these things in mind when they think of the key qualities of civilisation, or what the difference is between a good society and a bad society. Britain today is a considerably better place than the Britain of C18, and no one would say it's because of better tourism, immigration and commercial policy.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Who conquered Crimea, military was already there and and the population voted for it
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    this supports and the people from

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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Funnily enough, most westerners don't have these things in mind when they think of the key qualities of civilisation, or what the difference is between a good society and a bad society. Britain today is a considerably better place than the Britain of C18, and no one would say it's because of better tourism, immigration and commercial policy.
    Just because you personally disregard them, doesn't mean they're not key qualities. What are the key qualities of Israel?

    And why are all your posts so bigoted like your way is the end all be all, the blueprint to heaven or some isht..
    Last edited by Showtime; 05-10-2016 at 01:21.

  7. #37
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Just because you personally disregard them, doesn't mean they're not key qualities. What are the key qualities of Israel?

    And why are all your posts so bigoted like your way is the end all be all, the blueprint to heaven or some isht..
    There are things like health policy, education policy, and other stuff. But underpinning them is social policy, or what is necessary to bring about a working liberal democracy. Israel is some way behind the west in this, but is way, way ahead of the vast majority of the middle east, by which I mean not just the geographical region, but also all Muslim countries.

    And yes, I do believe in liberal democracy as the blueprint of what I would call civilisation. Given that you apparently live in the west, would you prefer to give up things like freedom and democracy to live in the Caliphate? After all, the society's qualities that I value aren't the be all and end all of heaven on earth, or so you tell me.

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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

    So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?

  9. #39
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.

    So there are no civilized societies besides the west? What if I lived in east Asian countries?
    I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.

    If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.

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    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How on earth did you conclude that? How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt? This is far from being close to a liberal democracy. No society that prevents a segment of its population from building their own businesses in acquired settlements, based on racial reasons, is to be considered such. Some are Arab-Israelis that have no quarrel with Israel, see how they’re treated.


    If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere in the Middle East besides Israel. Israel is certainly guilty of the many crimes that you mention to various degrees but to say that the surrounding Arab nations are any better just means to me that you arent paying attention or willfully looking the other direction to maintain your beliefs.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    If you lived in east Asian countries, you'd see that they value westernisation as the acme of civilisation. Even if they don't adopt democracy, they certainly adopt liberalism.
    They value westernization as the acme of civilization? Doubt it. Liberalism doesn't belong to you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian
    I refer you to the horror stories coming out of Qatar. And that's just the country focused on because of the world cup, and seemingly Saudi and other countries in the region are just as bad. Israel's practical apartheid is repugnant to us, but in comparison with the likes of Qatar and Saudi, and they're among the richer Muslim countries (and thus should be able to afford better social policies), they're angels.
    Racist laws and war crimes are different. Migrant deaths in those countries are crimes against humanity for sure, but you only named two Arab countries. Saudi Arabia can be compared now due to the war on Yemen, but I don’t see how any of them are “just as bad” besides western countries. UK can’t even declare the war on Iraq illegal, or acknowledge its warcrimes. If you really believe Qatar is more criminal than Israel than…
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy
    If you honestly think this then you clearly aren't paying attention to anything else which is going on anywhere
    How many stable countries in the ME come close? It's never a good sign when a liberal democracy is being compared to Saudi Arabia, who have similar policies for their eastern provinces. So no, Israel is not a liberal democracy. Funnily enough Iran is probably more liberal in some respects.
    Last edited by Showtime; 05-10-2016 at 03:22.

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    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How many stable countries in the ME come close? It's never a good sign when a liberal democracy is being compared to Saudi Arabia, who have similar policies for their eastern provinces. So no, Israel is not a liberal democracy. Funnily enough Iran is probably more liberal in some respects.
    You're the one who is comparing Israel to the surrounding states and saying that the surrounding states are better for human rights. And please, tell me where Iran is more liberal. Again, not excusing any of the crimes Israel has done but I think you are being overly selective with your criticisms.

    Also why don't you look up how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring in 2011.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.

  14. #44
    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.
    Soooooo if they are less racist and less murderous, they are better in the realm of human rights. That is you are saying. And how are they less capable of being murderous? Just look at Assad in Syria now. Are you saying his crimes arent as bad as Israels?

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.
    You do realize that Iranian soldiers are directly involved in Syria's civil war, right? If you studied Iranian foreign policy even a little bit you would understand that while they might not be starting wars they certainly participate in them. Like in Yemen. Iraq. Syria. Afghanistan to a limited extent. I will agree, lack of voting rights for such a large chunk is criminal. But on the other hand, lets not pretend that Iran is a shrine of voting rights. The 2009 Green Movement didnt happen for nothing. And if you think that religious minorities in Iran have much in the way of religious freedom you arent doing any research at all into what religious minorities go through in Iran.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.
    Firecrackers which kill people. Im not excusing Israel for being heavy handed in Gaza (frankly its a disgrace how Israel handles Gaza) but lets not pretend that these "firecrackers" arent deadly, nor would I call Hamas resistance ragtag. Ragtag resistance doesn't inflict that many casualties on the IDF, an army renowned for being rather overly cautious when it comes to friendly casualties.

    Also why dont we compare military operations with one another instead of comparing a military operation with a crackdown on protesters? According to the UN, 12,000 Yemeni civilians have been killed by the Saudi-led coalition so its not like anyone else in the region is in any way better.
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    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy View Post
    Soooooo if they are less racist and less murderous, they are better in the realm of human rights. That is you are saying. And how are they less capable of being murderous? Just look at Assad in Syria now. Are you saying his crimes arent as bad as Israels?


    You do realize that Iranian soldiers are directly involved in Syria's civil war, right? If you studied Iranian foreign policy even a little bit you would understand that while they might not be starting wars they certainly participate in them. Like in Yemen. Iraq. Syria. Afghanistan to a limited extent. I will agree, lack of voting rights for such a large chunk is criminal. But on the other hand, lets not pretend that Iran is a shrine of voting rights. The 2009 Green Movement didnt happen for nothing. And if you think that religious minorities in Iran have much in the way of religious freedom you arent doing any research at all into what religious minorities go through in Iran.


    Firecrackers which kill people. Im not excusing Israel for being heavy handed in Gaza (frankly its a disgrace how Israel handles Gaza) but lets not pretend that these "firecrackers" arent deadly, nor would I call Hamas resistance ragtag. Ragtag resistance doesn't inflict that many casualties on the IDF, an army renowned for being rather overly cautious when it comes to friendly casualties.

    Also why dont we compare military operations with one another instead of comparing a military operation with a crackdown on protesters? According to the UN, 12,000 Yemeni civilians have been killed by the Saudi-led coalition so its not like anyone else in the region is in any way better.
    Israel are bad but the other countries are worse. Ranging from slightly worse in the best cases, to considerably worse in most of them.

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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy
    Soooooo if they are less racist and less murderous, they are better in the realm of human rights. That is you are saying. And how are they less capable of being murderous? Just look at Assad in Syria now. Are you saying his crimes arent as bad as Israels?
    Notice I never said human rights, I was responding to Pannonian saying that Israel is the only civilized country in the region.

    As for Assad, he may be just as bad but this is not a stable country, he lost control of it. With Israeli military, we can see a clearcut connection between military action and civilian deaths. We don’t have enough info to say the same about Syria, especially with evidence surfacing that the chemical attack was by a military dissident. Israel and Palestine don’t have the same factionalism obscuring reality.
    You do realize that Iranian soldiers are directly involved in Syria's civil war, right? If you studied Iranian foreign policy even a little bit you would understand that while they might not be starting wars they certainly participate in them. Like in Yemen. Iraq. Syria. Afghanistan to a limited extent. I will agree, lack of voting rights for such a large chunk is criminal. But on the other hand, lets not pretend that Iran is a shrine of voting rights. The 2009 Green Movement didnt happen for nothing. And if you think that religious minorities in Iran have much in the way of religious freedom you arent doing any research at all into what religious minorities go through in Iran.
    For sure. I personally am not a fan of Iran's leadership but having studied their foreign policy, it’s more about maintaining as opposed to Israel’s (and US allies) disrupting. For one, Israel carries out assassinations on foreign soil, treats injured insurgents, and doesn’t really value the territorial integrity of most of its neighbors (i.e. UNSC 242).

    Iran, on the other hand, has a much less hostile, more consistent, and realist foreign policy.
    - They have the permission of the de facto Syrian leadership to help them fight the insurgencies.
    - Helped the US in Afghanistan
    - Filled a vacuum in Iraq after the US applied its sectarian plan there, now fighting AQ and Daesh.
    - No direct involvement in Yemen, arming a homegrown organization that has always been part of Yemen’s body politic

    I only said that Iran is more liberal in some respects, which is true. But there is no denying that Iran has a politically sound foreign policy, which can’t be said about Israel. They don't start wars either.
    Also why dont we compare military operations with one another instead of comparing a military operation with a crackdown on protesters? According to the UN, 12,000 Yemeni civilians have been killed by the Saudi-led coalition so its not like anyone else in the region is in any way better.
    That’s way too high. Not to downgrade the crimes by the coalition but the civilian death count was around 3,000 last time I checked, so that must be the total. I mentioned that Saudi are approaching IDF levels of crimes sure, but unlike Israel they have a UNSC resolution on their side despite the war crimes.

    Again I never said Israel is the worst, I only explained why it absolutely isn't the best or "least worse."
    Last edited by Showtime; 05-10-2016 at 07:44.

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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    By international and middle eastern standards, Arab countries are better at tourism, immigration, and commercial policy.
    It is an over-generalization. You can't lump all Arab nations together and compare the bunch against just one country. For example, while some Arab countries (Egypt, Tunisia, UAE) may be good at attracting tourists (although seeing no figures I can't say they are better), others (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Oman, Kuwait) are definitely doing worse than Israel. The same can be said about other aspects you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Israel was basically founded with a terror campaign and the establishment of the state was basically forced on a lot of people. I'm sorry that it surprises you that people are angry if something is forced upon them.
    It doesn't surprise me. But you somehow justify the anger-caused violence of "a lot of people" (aka Arabs) and are not ready to do the same for jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    The major reason Israelis are scared today is probably not that all the neighbors will invade again because it seems a lot of the neighbors have gotten used to it. What scares them are the terrorist organizations
    And it makes their fear less? The reasons of the fear don't matter, the fear is still there. And perhaps it is even more intense, when you realize that the death may come not from (comparatively) far away, but is lurking somewhere around the corner and may come from a person you have known for ages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If you support Israel conquering land for security though, then surely you agree with Russia conquering Crimea to secure its harbor?
    1. Show meat least one statement where I support any land grabs. I was trying to explain to you the reasons of Israel's policies and didn't express any evaluation.

    2. If you draw Russia into this debate:

    Has Russia suffered any wars (since it was bereft of Crimea) started by Ukraine or from the territory of Ukraine or by proxy involving Ukraine?
    Has Russia suffered any terrorist attacks on its territory by Ukrainians?
    Has Ukraine officially said that it doesn't recognize the existence of Russia as a state?
    Has Ukraine's religious leaders called for a jihad on Russia?

    If you answer "no" to these questions, you will see that your attempt at equating the two land grabs is ridiculous. But that doesn't mean that I support the land grabs on the part of Israel, though.


    Generally speaking, you can't by default accuse me of supporting or defending Israel. I'm a Ukrainian nazi, did you forget? Anyone who stays in Ukraine at least for a little while becomes one even if he is pregnant:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    Who conquered Crimea, military was already there and and the population voted for it
    I thought that westerners know what voting is. What was pulled in Crimea was anything but voting. And it was not recognized by anyone (except some minor sycophants of Russia).
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 05-10-2016 at 11:16.

  18. #48
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    It doesn't surprise me. But you somehow justify the anger-caused violence of "a lot of people" (aka Arabs) and are not ready to do the same for jews.
    I can understand it in the case of the Palestinians, as they're the ones who are actually being victimised on the ground. But the other countries have no excuse, except for the realpolitik of turning anger in their own inadequate societies towards an outside enemy.

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    It doesn't surprise me. But you somehow justify the anger-caused violence of "a lot of people" (aka Arabs) and are not ready to do the same for jews.
    So you're saying that if the arabs retaliate against the terrorist jews, the terrorist jews have a right to be angry over the retaliation?
    Just like a murderer has the right to be angry over and retaliate for his imprisonment?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    And it makes their fear less? The reasons of the fear don't matter, the fear is still there. And perhaps it is even more intense, when you realize that the death may come not from (comparatively) far away, but is lurking somewhere around the corner and may come from a person you have known for ages.
    How many jews were forced to go live in that country where they have to endure all this fear? Are you saying they couldn't know in advance that going to live in Israel would come with some dangers? And how does having fear excuse throwing rocks at children? Are arab children scary? Natural born terrorists?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    1. Show meat least one statement where I support any land grabs. I was trying to explain to you the reasons of Israel's policies and didn't express any evaluation.
    Here:

    A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.
    If that is not meant to say everything they do is okay, then what does it say? Maybe you need to be a bit more precise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    2. If you draw Russia into this debate:

    Has Russia suffered any wars (since it was bereft of Crimea) started by Ukraine or from the territory of Ukraine or by proxy involving Ukraine?
    Ukrainians said very mean, fear-inducing things about Russians, "A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.".
    Last edited by Husar; 05-10-2016 at 12:50.


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    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    So you're saying that if the arabs retaliate against the terrorist jews, the terrorist jews have a right to be angry over the retaliation?
    Just like a murderer has the right to be angry over and retaliate for his imprisonment?
    Imprisonment and murder to retaliate for it are somehow different.

    But as for Arabs and Jews, I condemn both terrorists, while you sound like you feel for Arabs only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    How many jews were forced to go live in that country where they have to endure all this fear? Are you saying they couldn't know in advance that going to live in Israel would come with some dangers? And how does having fear excuse throwing rocks at children? Are arab children scary? Natural born terrorists?
    A nation living in constant fear sometimes sees dangers where there isn't. But this is the price they have to willingly pay for surviving. Sometimes it hurts the innocent on both sides (I remember about a couple of months ago there was a ruckus about knife-armed terrorists and once on a false suspicion a crowd lynched a jew). But it is collateral damage which makes people (including me) sorry, but seldom goes further than that; much like MH 17 - in spite of all the evidence pointing Russiawards Europeans seem ready to forget about it and not press any charges. Even the Netherlands whose citizens were most numerous on board the plane indirectly supported Russia having voted at the referendum the way Russia cheered at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    If that is not meant to say everything they do is okay, then what does it say? Maybe you need to be a bit more precise.
    It was an attempt at explanation, not a statement of support. Just like you offer plausible (as you believe) reasons why Russia annexed Crimea - does it mean you support it? Although I don't know - perhaps you really do. Not me in case of Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Ukrainians said very mean, fear-inducing things about Russians, "A country which lives in the perpetual state of alert (or war, for a change) is not likely to act differently, talk differently or vote differently.".
    If Russia is living in the state of alert (which has become acute right after the Crimea adventure), it is induced from within employing the rhetoric of a besieged fortress. In a cleft stick of their own cutting.

    I thought we have been through with it. But if you want, let's do it again - those things were said AFTER Putin moved into the Crimea. But even with those things said - Ukrainians said them IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY never DOING anything nasty to Russia or in Russia, voicing NO PLANS TO DESTROY Russia. Can we say the same about Arabs? So, again - flawed comparison.

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    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Israel are bad but the other countries are worse. Ranging from slightly worse in the best cases, to considerably worse in most of them.
    And I agree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Notice I never said human rights, I was responding to Pannonian saying that Israel is the only civilized country in the region.
    Human rights is a super broad category. The things you mentioned fall under this super broad category.

    As for Assad, he may be just as bad but this is not a stable country, he lost control of it. With Israeli military, we can see a clearcut connection between military action and civilian deaths. We don’t have enough info to say the same about Syria, especially with evidence surfacing that the chemical attack was by a military dissident. Israel and Palestine don’t have the same factionalism obscuring reality.
    So you are insinuating that Assad has little control over his own military? I find that very hard to believe. And his war crimes are not limited to the chemical attacks as you also have the barrel bombs and the general targeting of civilians by loyalist forces.

    Iran, on the other hand, has a much less hostile, more consistent, and realist foreign policy.
    - They have the permission of the de facto Syrian leadership to help them fight the insurgencies.
    Permission to help prop up the rather murderous Assad regime.

    - Helped the US in Afghanistan
    And arms the Taliban at the same time.

    - Filled a vacuum in Iraq after the US applied its sectarian plan there, now fighting AQ and Daesh.
    And arms Shia militias who are now accused of war crimes against Sunnis in Iraq. I will say that Iran is overall doing good now in Iraq, but Iran is no saint here. And dont forget that during the Iraq War, Iran was arming the insurgency.

    - No direct involvement in Yemen, arming a homegrown organization that has always been part of Yemen’s body politic
    I dunno, arming rebels seems to be a form of involvement. Maybe not troops on the ground but they certainly are involved.

    I only said that Iran is more liberal in some respects, which is true. But there is no denying that Iran has a politically sound foreign policy, which can’t be said about Israel. They don't start wars either.
    Name the ways they are more liberal, besides voting rights (which I will agree with you on). And just because they dont start wars doesnt make a country automatically have a sound foreign policy. Lots of factors go into how to evaluate a foreign policy, not just if they start wars or not.

    That’s way too high. Not to downgrade the crimes by the coalition but the civilian death count was around 3,000 last time I checked, so that must be the total. I mentioned that Saudi are approaching IDF levels of crimes sure, but unlike Israel they have a UNSC resolution on their side despite the war crimes.
    Fair enough, I looked at the numbers again and you are correct.

    Again I never said Israel is the worst, I only explained why it absolutely isn't the best or "least worse."
    You say that, but your previous posts seem to say the opposite.
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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    But as for Arabs and Jews, I condemn both terrorists, while you sound like you feel for Arabs only.
    Actually you sounded like you cared for the Israelis only, maybe that is the problem here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    A nation living in constant fear sometimes sees dangers where there isn't. But this is the price they have to willingly pay for surviving. Sometimes it hurts the innocent on both sides (I remember about a couple of months ago there was a ruckus about knife-armed terrorists and once on a false suspicion a crowd lynched a jew). But it is collateral damage which makes people (including me) sorry, but seldom goes further than that; much like MH 17 - in spite of all the evidence pointing Russiawards Europeans seem ready to forget about it and not press any charges. Even the Netherlands whose citizens were most numerous on board the plane indirectly supported Russia having voted at the referendum the way Russia cheered at.
    And where in this is the understanding you have for the Arab reaction? Do Palestinians not live in constant fear?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    It was an attempt at explanation, not a statement of support. Just like you offer plausible (as you believe) reasons why Russia annexed Crimea - does it mean you support it? Although I don't know - perhaps you really do. Not me in case of Israel.
    I don't support it in either case, I brought it up because you seemed to be finding excuses for the Israeli occupations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I thought we have been through with it. But if you want, let's do it again - [...]
    Nono, we are, thank you very much.


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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    M17 has nothing to do with that referendum and why people voted no, completily seperated issues
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hooahguy
    Human rights is a super broad category. The things you mentioned fall under this super broad category.
    I stated why Israel is not the best at human rights. There are a bunch of countries that can be considered more “civilized” with more harmonious societies despite being a bit more conservative.
    So you are insinuating that Assad has little control over his own military? I find that very hard to believe. And his war crimes are not limited to the chemical attacks as you also have the barrel bombs and the general targeting of civilians by loyalist forces.
    Has little control over his country. Syria is a failed state, there’s no comparison and all this comes with the territory, it’s beyond control especially with the amount of countries sabotaging that control from the beginning. Every time states start to show little respect for another's sovereignty expect this to happen.
    Permission to help prop up the rather murderous Assad regime.
    As if that’s any better than propping up rebels with state-threatening agendas? Murderous or not, objectively, Iran has permission from the legitimate government, so their intervention is lawful.
    And arms the Taliban at the same time.
    To fight Daesh. They have a streak of successful foreign policy initiatives so it could work. They also share borders with all these countries so there’s a higher risk factor for them, unlike the US. You have to understand where they're coming from.
    And arms Shia militias who are now accused of war crimes against Sunnis in Iraq. I will say that Iran is overall doing good now in Iraq, but Iran is no saint here. And dont forget that during the Iraq War, Iran was arming the insurgency.
    They also share borders and were at war with Iraq for eight years so they have their reasons. There's a legit stake in this for them.
    I dunno, arming rebels seems to be a form of involvement. Maybe not troops on the ground but they certainly are involved.
    US funded Daesh before it became Daesh just so it could bring down Assad. Iranians don’t support a seizure of Yemen’s government and made the rebels announce a powersharing plan before Saudis went apeshit. You’ll see how much the Saudis will regret this entire thing, they’re trying to pull out without losing face right now.
    Name the ways they are more liberal, besides voting rights (which I will agree with you on). And just because they dont start wars doesnt make a country automatically have a sound foreign policy. Lots of factors go into how to evaluate a foreign policy, not just if they start wars or not.
    There’s a lot of ethnic tension in Iran, but the religious freedom is better than in Israel believe it or not. They have a more reasonable foreign policy than the US and allies, this is pretty clear. Starting wars is a big deal too, it should tell you that Iran is not the cause of regional instability when most are guilty of this.
    You say that, but your previous posts seem to say the opposite.
    Where did I say that Israel is the worst in the ME? My problem is with the idea that it’s slightly better than the rest.

  25. #55
    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    I stated why Israel is not the best at human rights. There are a bunch of countries that can be considered more “civilized” with more harmonious societies despite being a bit more conservative.
    Name them.

    Has little control over his country. Syria is a failed state, there’s no comparison and all this comes with the territory, it’s beyond control especially with the amount of countries sabotaging that control from the beginning. Every time states start to show little respect for another's sovereignty expect this to happen.
    Thats not what Im saying. Yeah, Assad has lost control of large swaths of Syria. But I find it very doubtful that all of those major war crimes perpetrated by the Assad loyalists were done without the knowledge and approval of the man himself.

    As if that’s any better than propping up rebels with state-threatening agendas? Murderous or not, objectively, Iran has permission from the legitimate government, so their intervention is lawful.
    I didnt say their intervention was unlawful. Just that this intervention isnt necessarily a good thing.

    To fight Daesh. They have a streak of successful foreign policy initiatives so it could work. They also share borders with all these countries so there’s a higher risk factor for them, unlike the US. You have to understand where they're coming from.
    Iran was helping the Taliban well before Daesh came out. Im not saying Iran should not have gotten involved, they absolutely have a right to be concerned about unstable countries around them such as Iraq and Afghanistan.

    They also share borders and were at war with Iraq for eight years so they have their reasons. There's a legit stake in this for them.
    Yeah, and when the US and allies were in Iraq the Iranians were funding and supplying insurgents fighting the government. Dont kid yourself into thinking Iran is some sort of benevolent leader in the region.

    US funded Daesh before it became Daesh just so it could bring down Assad.
    Citation needed.

    There’s a lot of ethnic tension in Iran, but the religious freedom is better than in Israel believe it or not. They have a more reasonable foreign policy than the US and allies, this is pretty clear. Starting wars is a big deal too, it should tell you that Iran is not the cause of regional instability when most are guilty of this.
    Not really. If you arent Muslim, Zoroastrian, Jewish, or Christian then your faith isnt sanctioned and is not protected. I would say religious freedom is roughly equal to Israels.

    Also Iran funds and arms such terror groups such as Hebollah and Hamas, so while they might not be the root cause of instability, they certainly are fanning flames.

    Where did I say that Israel is the worst in the ME? My problem is with the idea that it’s slightly better than the rest.
    Its hard to read your posts and conclude anything besides the idea that you think that Israel is at least among the worst in the region. Comments like this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    How many Arab countries have any or the same degree of institutionalized inequality, apartheid, outright racism against blacks, and same atrocities on civilians directly by the state military under its belt?
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  26. #56
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoaahguy
    Name them.
    Jordan, Morocco, Kuwait, Tunisia, UAE, Oman, Algeria. They all have their deficiencies, and to say Israel is totally better is subjective at the very least. Most, if not all, of the listed countries have never invaded others. Oman and Tunisia have always been neutral.
    Thats not what Im saying. Yeah, Assad has lost control of large swaths of Syria. But I find it very doubtful that all of those major war crimes perpetrated by the Assad loyalists were done without the knowledge and approval of the man himself.

    I didnt say their intervention was unlawful. Just that this intervention isnt necessarily a good thing.
    Fact is he’s fighting violent totalitarian movements that are not internationally recognized but supported anyway. Whether they had approval or not we can’t say for sure.

    Only time will tell, one of the key qualities of their foreign policy is that they handle their business legally. This is what makes them better than the west in that department.
    Yeah, and when the US and allies were in Iraq the Iranians were funding and supplying insurgents fighting the government. Dont kid yourself into thinking Iran is some sort of benevolent leader in the region.
    They’re against illegal forced occupation, so they fund resistance. Those groups killing Sunnis are disgusting, but when the US stormed in it was open season, Iran won over most Iraqi people.
    Citation needed.
    https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...-version11.pdf

    Look at page 3 for context and then scroll down to #8 C. for the zinger.
    Not really. If you arent Muslim, Zoroastrian, Jewish, or Christian then your faith isnt sanctioned and is not protected. I would say religious freedom is roughly equal to Israels.

    Also Iran funds and arms such terror groups such as Hebollah and Hamas, so while they might not be the root cause of instability, they certainly are fanning flames.
    Do all religions and groups have representation in Israeli politics?

    I understand that these may be terror groups to you, but keep in mind they’re resistance movements, and Iran is all for that as it’s against launching wars on other countries. I agree they’re fanning flames, but Hamas and Hezbollah reacted to invaders. Just because they're listed as terrorists by the west and its allies doesn't make it so for everybody else.
    Its hard to read your posts and conclude anything besides the idea that you think that Israel is at least among the worst in the region. Comments like this:
    Israel has atrocities unique to Israel, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s superior everyone else. It’s kind of offensive because most ME countries are painted with the same brush, but I believe they hold their own just like Israel does in other areas. To say Israel is better than the rest just for being a democracy is ill-informed, and a part of the problem. Don't forget that Israel regularly does stuff that is labelled illegal by the international community like land seizures and invasions, while Saudi Arabia is mostly guilty of the treatment of its own people.

  27. #57
    Stranger in a strange land Forum Administrator Hooahguy's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Jordan, Morocco, Kuwait, Tunisia, UAE, Oman, Algeria. They all have their deficiencies, and to say Israel is totally better is subjective at the very least. Most, if not all, of the listed countries have never invaded others. Oman and Tunisia have always been neutral.
    Well, Jordan did invade someone. Israel, in 1948. And then they fought again in 1967. After which minority Jewish populations in many of the countries you listed were persecuted, set upon by mobs, or outright kicked out.

    And bear in mind when we say "better" we are arguing "a tiny bit better." Nowhere are we excusing Israel's (many) crimes. Besides why are these countries consistently rated lower in the realm of human rights by various organizations such as Freedom House and Human Rights Watch.

    Fact is he’s fighting violent totalitarian movements that are not internationally recognized but supported anyway. Whether they had approval or not we can’t say for sure.
    You realize that Assad is also a violent totalitarian regime right? If it wasnt done with his approval he certainly hasnt said anything to make anyone think otherwise.

    Only time will tell, one of the key qualities of their foreign policy is that they handle their business legally. This is what makes them better than the west in that department.
    Sure, besides their funding of groups who engage in terrorist activities.

    They’re against illegal forced occupation, so they fund resistance. Those groups killing Sunnis are disgusting, but when the US stormed in it was open season, Iran won over most Iraqi people.
    Ok, so because Iran wants a stable neighbor out of Iraq, why would they fund insurgents fighting against the government that the US was trying to help?

    https://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...-version11.pdf

    Look at page 3 for context and then scroll down to #8 C. for the zinger.
    You do realize this is just a report, not a paper outlining policy, theres no credible evidence that the US funded ISIS. If there was, it would be the scandal of the century, and it would be all over the news and whatnot. Which is why this "smoking gun" is just an illusion.

    Do all religions and groups have representation in Israeli politics?
    Political representation doesnt automatically mean equality. For example, in Iran, Jews are barred from a lot of government positions. Is that religious freedom? A token seat in parliament is hardly true representation anyways. What religious freedom means is that any religion can practice openly and freely in a country.

    I understand that these may be terror groups to you, but keep in mind they’re resistance movements, and Iran is all for that as it’s against launching wars on other countries. I agree they’re fanning flames, but Hamas and Hezbollah reacted to invaders. Just because they're listed as terrorists by the west and its allies doesn't make it so for everybody else.
    Ah yes, such great acts of resistance such as the 1994 bombing of a Jewish center in Argentina where 85 people were killed. Totally resistance, not terror. Totally.

    Israel has atrocities unique to Israel, and I don’t think it’s fair to say that it’s superior everyone else. It’s kind of offensive because most ME countries are painted with the same brush, but I believe they hold their own just like Israel does in other areas. To say Israel is better than the rest just for being a democracy is ill-informed, and a part of the problem. Don't forget that Israel regularly does stuff that is labelled illegal by the international community like land seizures and invasions, while Saudi Arabia is mostly guilty of the treatment of its own people.
    Again, nobody is arguing that Israel is anywhere close to being an angel. Hell, I will be the first to condemn how Israel treats Palestinians, steals land for settlements, indiscriminate bombing of Gaza, and the list goes on. My argument is that it is slightly better, in the sense that you can be openly gay without government persecution, women have full rights, there is freedom of the press, etc. Granted, in some of these areas these freedoms are being eroded such as freedom of the press.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Post Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Never said that. I said they’re less racist and they’re less murderous, often because their regimes are incapable of being so as much as Israel.

    When was the last time Iran launched a war? 1/3 of Israel’s citizens can’t vote right? Everyone in Iran can including Iranian Jews. Seems like religious freedom is worse in Israel, and Iran is less genocidal. They only talk about it.

    Compare how Bahrain handled the Arab Spring to how Israel handled ragtag resistance launching firecrackers. Look at the numbers.
    Iran is not an Arab state.
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    And where in this is the understanding you have for the Arab reaction? Do Palestinians not live in constant fear?
    I don't know. If you initiate violence you WILL live in constant fear of retaliation. But I don't feel sorry for those who e. g. attack civilians with a knife and then vanish into the thickly populated neighborhood making its denizens live in constant fear of retaliation from Israelis or of being branded traitors if they deliver the perpetrator to the police.

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    I don't support it in either case, I brought it up because you seemed to be finding excuses for the Israeli occupations.
    Yet the comparison was lame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fragony View Post
    M17 has nothing to do with that referendum and why people voted no, completily seperated issues
    That is the problem - the Dutch didn't/don't seem to realize that those issues are connected.

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    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: What would non-anti-semitic criticism of Israel look like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    That is the problem - the Dutch didn't/don't seem to realize that those issues are connected.
    They probably are, but the considerations for voting no against that treaty has mostly financial reasons. We are more pissed of of our own government for not doing their job investigating it properly but that really isn't important, M17 is a side-issue. I couldn't care less who did it really shit happens.
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