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  1. #121
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Your analysis has all the depth of a post by Greyblades.

    Within the borders of Israel, if you are a full citizen, then your rights are greater than many in the region enjoy. But travel further east, and you are born with Palestinian papers, the situation is different. Your rights are as bad (if not worse) than anyone in the region. Arbitrary arrest and imprisonment are routine. You have no right to travel. Your property is subject to confiscation or destruction as a "collective punishment".

    Although on the plus side, you went a whole post without mentioning Jeremy Corbyn. So well done.
    Have you read that Orwell essay I referred to? It's practically a complete description of the British hard Left as it exists today. And he wrote that during the 1930s.

  2. #122
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Your analysis has all the depth of a post by Greyblades. .
    Hm, Its the first time I've seen you use "depth" of all things as one of your buzzwords to substitute a lack of real criticism beyond "opinion I dont like"
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-29-2017 at 21:13.
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  3. #123
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    IMHO we should just wall off the whole region and leave them to their own devices, without any judgement, and more importantly, without any action, from us.
    You have just walled off the EU. It seems that the idea of fencing yourselves in (or fencing the whole world out) is a neccessary constituent of British national character.
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  4. #124
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You have just walled off the EU. It seems that the idea of fencing yourselves in (or fencing the whole world out) is a neccessary constituent of British national character.
    It's a kind of childishness that besets all humans, but becomes more acute in island dwellers. An assertion that we can aggressively ignore problems that don't fit neatly into our simple preconceived set of solutions for everything.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  5. #125
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    It's a kind of childishness that besets all humans, but becomes more acute in island dwellers. An assertion that we can aggressively ignore problems that don't fit neatly into our simple preconceived set of solutions for everything.
    Aggressively ignore?
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  6. #126
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Aggressively ignore?
    Building the wall. If I choose to ignore my neighbour - that's one thing. If I choose to build a wall between us so I never have to look at him - that is a kind of aggression.
    Last edited by Idaho; 03-30-2017 at 12:37.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  7. #127
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    Building the wall. If I choose to ignore my neighbour - that's one thing. If I choose to build a wall between us so I never have to look at him - that is a kind of aggression.
    I would say that "aggression" and "ignoring" are mutually exclusive. But the islanders may see it differently.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  8. #128
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I would say that "aggression" and "ignoring" are mutually exclusive. But the islanders may see it differently.
    I take his point though. If the wall building is prompted by the dislike for the neighbor, there is a passive aggressive quality to it.

    Which brings us to the latest "wall" in the news. Trump's Wall on the southern border. If prompted by a need to self protect it makes sense; if prompted by a motivation to ignore Mexico, that's a bit unhealthy....as is most passive aggression.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  9. #129
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    I take his point though. If the wall building is prompted by the dislike for the neighbor, there is a passive aggressive quality to it.

    Which brings us to the latest "wall" in the news. Trump's Wall on the southern border. If prompted by a need to self protect it makes sense; if prompted by a motivation to ignore Mexico, that's a bit unhealthy....as is most passive aggression.
    Are we moving to discuss semantics? Then:
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aggression
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  10. #130
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Are we moving to discuss semantics? Then:
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aggression
    That's the direction argumentative ennui usually draws us.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  11. #131
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Are we moving to discuss semantics? Then:
    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aggression
    er....the second definition cited by that dictionary for the term aggression more or less exactly supports the point I was making. Was this a counterpoint or posted in support of my comment?
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  12. #132
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    er....the second definition cited by that dictionary for the term aggression more or less exactly supports the point I was making. Was this a counterpoint or posted in support of my comment?
    I get it we can't avoid discussing semantics....

    I don't see how building a wall on YOUR territory can qualify as "any offensive action, attack, or procedure; an inroad or encroachment".
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  13. #133
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I get it we can't avoid discussing semantics....

    I don't see how building a wall on YOUR territory can qualify as "any offensive action, attack, or procedure; an inroad or encroachment".
    It represents an attack on the Mexican economy and possibly on the political stability of Mexico itself. In allowing/sending undocumented workers to El Norte (along with those entering legally for work), the Mexican government has been both supplementing its economy directly ($23B in remittances each year) and by extension, NOT having to provide welfare and services itself to replace those monies. It has been argued that illegals function as a US corporate subsidy to the Mexican government. An increase in any real "barrier" would thus exert economic pressure on Mexico.

    Moreover, any such barrier (and it would NOT be a fence from sea to shining sea, except metaphorically) would also make it more difficult for illegals from Central America to travel successfully through Mexico on "La Bestia" or by other routes as well as hamper the flow of illegal drugs. This is likely to incite further, not reduced, violence from the cartels who are already challenging the Mexican government's functional control of the Northern provinces.

    This 'wall' would represent a significant "encroachment" on the current way of doing business on the Southern Border.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  14. #134
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It represents an attack on the Mexican economy and possibly on the political stability of Mexico itself. In allowing/sending undocumented workers to El Norte (along with those entering legally for work), the Mexican government has been both supplementing its economy directly ($23B in remittances each year) and by extension, NOT having to provide welfare and services itself to replace those monies. It has been argued that illegals function as a US corporate subsidy to the Mexican government. An increase in any real "barrier" would thus exert economic pressure on Mexico.

    Moreover, any such barrier (and it would NOT be a fence from sea to shining sea, except metaphorically) would also make it more difficult for illegals from Central America to travel successfully through Mexico on "La Bestia" or by other routes as well as hamper the flow of illegal drugs. This is likely to incite further, not reduced, violence from the cartels who are already challenging the Mexican government's functional control of the Northern provinces.

    This 'wall' would represent a significant "encroachment" on the current way of doing business on the Southern Border.
    I see your post bestrewed with "illegal". Can any action be considered aggressive if its aim is to fight the illegal? It looks more like defensive.
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  15. #135
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    I see your post bestrewed with "illegal". Can any action be considered aggressive if its aim is to fight the illegal? It looks more like defensive.
    English common law has the idea that anything that persists for long enough can be assumed to have become legitimate.

  16. #136
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    English common law has the idea that anything that persists for long enough can be assumed to have become legitimate.
    "Long enough" is too vague a formula for laws.
    Although I have no idea how your post bears on aggression and wall-building.
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  17. #137
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    "Long enough" is too vague a formula for laws.
    Although I have no idea how your post bears on aggression and wall-building.
    Seamus doesn't just refer to physical walls. He also cites legal walls, ie. the tighter enforcement of existing laws that theoretically prevents illegals (these laws exist, otherwise they wouldn't be illegals). As for vagueness as a formula for laws: that's what courts and judges are for.

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  18. #138
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Seamus doesn't just refer to physical walls. He also cites legal walls, ie. the tighter enforcement of existing laws that theoretically prevents illegals (these laws exist, otherwise they wouldn't be illegals).
    According to Trump, it is the physical wall that he has in mind first of all.
    But physical or otherwise, walls (constructed within one's own territory to uphold the law) can't be considered aggression.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 04-03-2017 at 13:35.
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  19. #139
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Gil'

    If you define aggression solely on the basis of direct impingement upon another, then no, it is not aggression. In his earlier post, I am pretty sure that Idaho was using the term much more broadly, and I was responding along those lines.


    Our choice to build a 'wall' on our Sothern border (and yes, Trump would greatly extend the physical portions of that wall as well as electronic surveillance and the legal hurdles rightly noted by Pannonian), could not be stopped by Mexico -- it is our choice of actions upon our terrain and would in no way deny human rights to Mexicans -- you can be darn well certain that the presence of this wall WOULD impinge on Mexican interests, and you can be nearly as certain that they would perceive it to be an act of aggression, even if they did not claim it a casum belllum.

    I am, personally, very much in favor of improving the security of our Southern border and curtailing illegal 'immigration.' I am not sure that a physical wall is the best choice, leaning more toward what Pannonian emphasized.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  20. #140
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post

    Our choice to build a 'wall' on our Sothern border (and yes, Trump would greatly extend the physical portions of that wall as well as electronic surveillance and the legal hurdles rightly noted by Pannonian), could not be stopped by Mexico -- it is our choice of actions upon our terrain and would in no way deny human rights to Mexicans -- you can be darn well certain that the presence of this wall WOULD impinge on Mexican interests, and you can be nearly as certain that they would perceive it to be an act of aggression, even if they did not claim it a casum belllum.
    If a nation takes some big scale steps there will always be another nation (or a group of foreigners) whose interests will be impinged on. Yet I think not all those actions can be qualified as aggression per se. But viewing things in a broader light one might even call aggression severe repemanding your neighbors' kids for raiding your mailbox.
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  21. #141
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Most minors arrested by the IDF experience violence:

    60 percent say experienced violence, only 10 percent met with a lawyer | In 2013, a UNICEF report said Israel was systematically abusing young detainees, new data shows little has changed
    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/....ampaign=buffer

    This is the kind of thing that can only be justified if you see these kids as less human than you.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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  22. #142
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    If a nation takes some big scale steps there will always be another nation (or a group of foreigners) whose interests will be impinged on. Yet I think not all those actions can be qualified as aggression per se. But viewing things in a broader light one might even call aggression severe repemanding your neighbors' kids for raiding your mailbox.
    And any number of parents will tell you that they have reprimanded a neighbor's children for some such little offense, only to have their neighbors tell them to "Back off, I will discipline my own children, it is not your job" taking affront (perceived aggression) at the neighbor's for 'threatening' their children.

    Defending one's own should NOT be perceived as aggression, mind you, but in our irrational world it often is so perceived.



    And I have been the parent yelling at the kids to stop wrecking my bushes, and WAS told to 'leave my children to me.'
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  23. #143
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    Defending one's own should NOT be perceived as aggression, mind you, but in our irrational world it often is so perceived.
    Since you do perceive it as aggression, does it mean you are being irrational?
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
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  24. #144
    Mr Self Important Senior Member Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    When you have a rather hostile neighbour and they start stocking up on guns and ammos... no way aggressive action?
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  25. #145
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    When you have a rather hostile neighbour and they start stocking up on guns and ammos... no way aggressive action?
    Mexico did none of these things.
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  26. #146
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Don't you get bored from arguing semantics?

    It's obviously clear what they wanted to say by now and even if they worded it wrong, isn't it time to let it go?

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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Mexico did none of these things.
    I was not remotely comparing Mexico to a hostile neighbour.
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  28. #148
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    More evidence that while Israel is colonising the west Bank, its squeezing Gaza to destruction. Border crossing permits are currently 2% of the level of 2000 and human rights activists are banned from entering.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs...tigations-gaza
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

  29. #149
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Idaho View Post
    More evidence that while Israel is colonising the west Bank, its squeezing Gaza to destruction. Border crossing permits are currently 2% of the level of 2000 and human rights activists are banned from entering.

    https://electronicintifada.net/blogs...tigations-gaza
    It would be a kindness for it to be ended swiftly.
    "The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman

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  30. #150
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Israeli state expands

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh View Post
    It would be a kindness for it to be ended swiftly.
    End the occupation and blockade swiftly? Yes, I agree. These are stateless people who are deliberately denied a state and whose infrastructure and political structures are constantly targeted for destruction. It's a slow and constant pogrom and is backed up by the world's biggest military and economic power.

    Someone will come along and tell you it's all OK because Iraq has no Jews or because Saudi is run by ****s.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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