Israel Thread

[Gilrandir]

Yes and no. The USSR, with rare exceptions, only sold them the dumbed-down versions of its various weapons platforms. Moreover, they sold them and did not grant much foreign aid as did the USA.

Soviet pilots as well as other military specialists trained Arabs to use weaponry and even participated in actual fighting.

[Idaho]

I don't think that Idaho is acknowledging the other factor at play in those conflicts, however. US military folk suggest that the problem is partly cultural in that Arabs appear to be brave and effective warriors but to make lousy soldiers. Too few of their formed units had the combat staying power of a typical Israeli formation.

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

[Idaho]

A good overview of how the Israeli government is removing political opposition. All opposition is terrorism. The leaders of the current prisoner hunger strike are getting the full smear treatment.

In a blatant attempt at distortion and misdirection, Israel claims that they “are all terrorists,'' all 6,500 prisoners including 300 children, 56 women, 13 parliamentarians, 28 journalists and the 500 administrative detainees held without charge or trial for indefinite periods of time, the worst form of arbitrary detention.

It claims all 800,000 Palestinian prisoners it has arrested since 1967 are ''terrorists'', the equivalent of 40% of our male population in the Occupied Palestinian Territory. And certainly, all the Palestinian people are ''terrorists'' by virtue of their identity.

http://www.newsweek.com/marwan-bargh...artheid-591021

[Seamus Fermanagh]

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

You and I disagree fairly thoroughly then on the impact of culture in these situations.

[AE Bravo]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

[Fragony]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

Whatever they are it's something to have figure out by themselves, maybe that's the cultural problem right there, they can't

[Idaho]

You and I disagree fairly thoroughly then on the impact of culture in these situations.

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

[Pannonian]

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

The west is based on a Christianity that has largely secularised itself over the last few centuries. The middle east is tending towards an Islam that harks back to the middle ages. Not quite in the middle east, but certainly a good example of this, see Pakistan.

[Fragony]

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

[Montmorency]

I suppose this is a natural way of thinking for white Americans. It is the mental approach they have had to the black underclass for many generations.

So the white frame of reference is a cultural element.

Anyway, the main immediate reason for Arab military failure is the inability of their central governments to keep a military campaign grinding on in the face of multiple competing parties among their coalitions, public dissatisfaction at home, and international disapproval.

Iran-Iraq, for one, had quite a lot of external impetus as well as being more unilaterally-driven.

[Montmorency]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

Fucked what up?

[Idaho]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

And this is why I don't take your opinions seriously Fragony. You are a combination of nasty and hilariously deranged.

[Fragony]

Fucked what up?

How about a lot? Not talking about black people but why insist to be a victim just because you are black? I would love to be able to fuck up and be excused just because I'm black, got a whole cheerleader-team of precious princesses cheering for me if I make a rap about it

This I can respect, how it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggxTtnKTMo

I got this whole 'racism is gone, what now, let's invent it' thingie

[Husar]

They really don't need whites to fail they do that to themselves, racism only exists in the head of delicate white-princesses, upper-class blackcoats and blacks who can't admit that they fucked it up

That's racist!

[Montmorency]

Racism can't be real because white people don't exist.

[Fragony]

Racism can't be real because white people don't exist.

That would be nice but white people do, and we get blamed for everything, and like flaggalanties we take the blame. Not me, a very big fuck of de moi go matter if you please but please, please

[AE Bravo]

I asked a question about why the militaries suck and it's like I just necroed an old thread in a new thread.

These kinds of explanations are pretty ridiculous in my opinion. Humans are pretty similar, especially in large groups and in extreme situations. Organisation methods and technology are the parameters at play. Culture is a poor explanation.

Anyway, the main immediate reason for Arab military failure is the inability of their central governments to keep a military campaign grinding on in the face of multiple competing parties among their coalitions, public dissatisfaction at home, and international disapproval.

Iran-Iraq, for one, had quite a lot of external impetus as well as being more unilaterally-driven.

Quoted for relevance. I don't remember seeing any indictments of culture in all the studies done by US military personnel over the years, and there have been a lot. Some problems pointed out by these studies:

- Over-centralization
- Discouragement of leadership at the junior office level
- Education system

Also, the shit some superior officers stay ignorant about would prompt a bitchslap and a demotion from a subordinate if it were in the states (US).

[Husar]

Not me, a very big fuck of de moi go matter if you please but please, please

Can I print that and hang it on the wall in my abstract art section?

[Idaho]

Back on topic - the pogroms in the West Bank continue:

The footage shows what appears to be a modified military vehicle being used to spray sewage over houses belonging to Palestinians. Israeli soldiers can be seen standing on the rooftops of Palestinian homes, indicating that they stormed and temporarily took possession of these houses.

The raid came after hundreds of Palestinians began marching following Friday prayers in solidarity with Palestinian prisoners who have started a mass hunger strike to protest Israeli prison conditions.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...ampaign=buffer

[AE Bravo]

Don't bother, you'll get more responses to articles about crazy truck drivers running over European marketplaces.

Europe gonna Europe. Israel founded by Europeans do the math.

[Pannonian]

Don't bother, you'll get more responses to articles about crazy truck drivers running over European marketplaces.

Europe gonna Europe. Israel founded by Europeans do the math.

Europeans are supposed to feel guilty about what Israelis do?

BTW, the US was founded by Europeans too. If Europe is such anathema to your sensibilities, why don't you live somewhere where Europeans have no historical influence whatsoever, or where their miniscule influence is considerably outweighed by the glory that is Islam? That is your ancestral culture, isn't it?

[AE Bravo]

BTW, the US was founded by Europeans too. If Europe is such anathema to your sensibilities, why don't you live somewhere where Europeans have no historical influence whatsoever,

Off the face of the earth? No thanks I'm good.

Try not to kick me out.

[Pannonian]

Off the face of the earth? No thanks I'm good.

Try not to kick me out.

The middle east is your thing, isn't it? Islam has far greater influence in these Muslim countries than the west does, and to a greater degree with each passing generation, if Pakistan is any indicator. Western liberalisation will soon disappear from there and other Muslim countries, so you can return there in the gratifying knowledge that you won't have to endure European Euro-centrism, but can nestle contented in that glorious culture that is modern Islamism.

And BTW, don't try to guilt us into taking responsibility for the crapshow that is Israel/Palestine. Both sides turned on us in the second half of the 1940s, telling us to bugger off so they can sort things out by themselves. We buggered off as they wished, and now you want us to feel guilty for not doing anything about it? They didn't want us to do anything about it. They wanted us to clear off, which we did. Now it's their responsibility, not ours. And while Israel is by some distance the closest in that region to us culturally, they are still middle eastern, and fundamentally alien to us. Well, except their liberals and socialists, but they're losing traction there too, so Israel too can become a properly middle eastern country in a few generations time. No more bleeding heart Euro-liberalism for the Israelis, but full immersion in the cruddy culture of that region.

[AE Bravo]

Not sure what you're talking about, Pakistan is more your concern than mine. I do not live in an Islamist country, mine is a federation.

Also, Israel's founders and the ones currently on top of the pyramid are eastern European and not middle eastern. A western entity for all intents and purposes.

[Idaho]

Don't bother, you'll get more responses to articles about crazy truck drivers running over European marketplaces.

Europe gonna Europe. Israel founded by Europeans do the math.

Not all battles are glorious victories. Not all warriors get become great heroes. Not everyone gets make the decisive charge that routs the enemy. Some of us trudge on wearily with the wagon train for long years. But we still fight the good fight.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Don't bother, you'll get more responses to articles about crazy truck drivers running over European marketplaces.

Europe gonna Europe. Israel founded by Europeans do the math.

Some truth to this, for sure. Add in that some in the West view Israel as a sort of apology for failing to act against the Nazi pogroms against European Jews and you can see where some in the West view Israelis as an "us" to the Arab world "them."

Grossly oversimplifies the whole thing of course, but many of us like our cognitive efforts kept simple.

Most of my students view the actions of Israel in Gaza as a wrong, but they know little about it -- certainly far less then they know about the judging panel of the Voice or which acts are performing at which club.

[Pannonian]

Some truth to this, for sure. Add in that some in the West view Israel as a sort of apology for failing to act against the Nazi pogroms against European Jews and you can see where some in the West view Israelis as an "us" to the Arab world "them."

Grossly oversimplifies the whole thing of course, but many of us like our cognitive efforts kept simple.

Most of my students view the actions of Israel in Gaza as a wrong, but they know little about it -- certainly far less then they know about the judging panel of the Voice or which acts are performing at which club.

What isn't a simplification is that neither side wanted us to remain there. So we're gone, and good riddance to us, and good riddance to that hellhole that they call the holy land. Whoever wants it is welcome to it.

[Pannonian]

Not all battles are glorious victories. Not all warriors get become great heroes. Not everyone gets make the decisive charge that routs the enemy. Some of us trudge on wearily with the wagon train for long years. But we still fight the good fight.

They've won the good fight. They kicked us out decades ago. We're not going back.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

What are the cultural traits you think are responsible then?

There are other research pieces that take on these issues -- and this pdf is out of date by an edition or two, hence available on copyright grounds. I point you toward the values pieces beginning with Hofstede's work on p. 198.

Arab countries score distinctly differently in terms of collectivism (not individualistic as is the West, but not collectivist/communal as is common in East Asian cultures), uncertainty avoidance (Arab countries are moderate risk takers, not willing to put things to chance as are many Western cultures [though there is much more variance among the West on this]), and power distance (Arab countries tend to prefer/accept authoritarian power structures more readily than most Western cultures, which trend toward equality or less permanent positions of power). Arab cultures tend to be focused less on future generations so much as on the traditional power of the family and tribal groups. Being outcast from your clan would be huge among them, whereas in the West we view anything aside from being disowned by your nuclear family as of little import.

In terms of military effectiveness, the general rules for success to develop a soldiery as opposed to a collection of brave warriors, are at least as old as Rome. Create conditions wherein the individuals retain their individuality but choose to suborn themselves to a group of peers whose experiences they share and whose respect and affection they covet. Basic training, the building of esprit de corps, the acceptance of discipline, etc. are well known parts of the military "recipe."

Such things could certainly be done with any Arab on an individual basis -- but among a group of Arabs their cultural trend is NOT for the individual to find their place in the group but for the extant social -- not military -- group to serve as the locus of action for the individual. How could a rational Arab in the military trust the person next to them who hails from a different tribe when that other Arab MUST maintain their first loyalty to the clan and not to their fellow soldier. This culturally derived disconnect undercuts the kind of esprit de corps that is the basis for military effectiveness in most if not all of the top-tier militaries. And if you keep a clan group together so that clan authority and military authority coincide, you will have an effective unit of force that is crippled by it's inability to cope with casualties -- since ALL of the casualties come from the same clan and diminish it as the "damage" is not spread.

Tom Kratman has some interesting essays tacked on to the end of his first few Carrera-series novels that discuss these issues, drawing on his own and other associates military experience.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

They've won the good fight. They kicked us out decades ago. We're not going back.

I believe Idaho was referring to himself as fighting "the good fight" by continuing to expose Israel's actions and thus work to curb or stop them despite a lack of response by many of those he seeks to persuade.