Brexit Thread

[Montmorency]

"How else do you explain the persistence of markets/capitalism as the dominant (not exclusive) economic form for most societies for the last 5 millennia?" Err, millennia? Not that long in Europe (few century ago in fact) market was not the benchmarking, but honour.
At your death bed, you had to give your fortune, your earthly possessions as you had to prepare to face God as you came, naked...
During millennia in fact, civilisations bloomed without the market economy. I explained it on the line market economy is a political construction, where the ones who possess protected their property/powers (through laws, force and propaganda) against the ones who have none.

I seem to recall something about a primitive form of stock market and banking developing in ancient Mesopotamia on the basis of futures and derivatives, until a particular monarch realized he could simply appropriate the wealth of the entire enterprise and it was no longer. So you're both right - the form is not persistent, but the impulse is.

[Husar]

Who would've thought that greed isn't exactly a new concept?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Who would've thought that greed isn't exactly a new concept?

On that we agree.

[Pannonian]

Fall in pound post-Brexit means price of tea will go up

Nations have fought wars of independence for less.

[Fragony]

But what about straws, there are many hanging onto them. These aren't the colonal times. More expensive marmite and tea, oh noes. THIS MEANS, uhmmmm nothing really

[edyzmedieval]

Not yet, Frag. Not yet. We still haven't triggered Article 50 yet.

[Gilrandir]

Again pessimistic news:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-haunts-market

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Economy grew by 05% last quarter, more than expected post-Brexit.

My thought on this is that they're trying to bleed volatility out of the market by dragging all this out.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"How else do you explain the persistence of markets/capitalism as the dominant (not exclusive) economic form for most societies for the last 5 millennia?" Err, millennia? Not that long in Europe (few century ago in fact) market was not the benchmarking, but honour.
At your death bed, you had to give your fortune, your earthly possessions as you had to prepare to face God as you came, naked...
During millennia in fact, civilisations bloomed without the market economy. I explained it on the line market economy is a political construction, where the ones who possess protected their property/powers (through laws, force and propaganda) against the ones who have none.

No.

Not correct, not even a little bit.

Greece and Rome basically ran on Capitalism and the entire medieval period was a debate over capitalism.

That's why in English today when you get a loan the bank is lending you capital - because Thomas Aquinas determined that whilst loans were usury (a mortal sin) lending capital was not.

[Montmorency]

Greece and Rome basically ran on Capitalism

Mercantilism isn't equivalent to capitalism.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Mercantilism isn't equivalent to capitalism.

Rome, at least, ran on Capitalism.

[Montmorency]

Rome, at least, ran on Capitalism.

If you say that, then this is the time to specify and clarify.

[edyzmedieval]

It grew by more than expected because of the sudden drop in the pound post-Brexit that really helped.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Mercantilism isn't equivalent to capitalism.

I labeled it "markets/capitalism" precisely for a reason. I wanted it to be understood that I was referring to the divers forms of market exchange (capitalism, mercantilism, barter, etc.) that rely on negotiation (implicit or explicit) and the individual protecting their own value in the exchange. I was not trying to quibble over which form was in ascendance at which point in history. I was contrasting it with efforts at directed or controlled economies.

There are always points of time where some expert or cadre of experts believes that they can direct/control things better than the controlled chaos of the marketplace in order to promote the greater good. Such efforts have always fallen short, even if they enjoyed short term success, and we revert back to some form of markets/capitalist exchange.

[Brenus]

"Greece and Rome basically ran on Capitalism and the entire medieval period was a debate over capitalism." So Greece, Rome and England are the world...
Joke apart, you should read a little bit more about Middle Ages (Guilds), and about the how titles were distributed. And of course, later, why the new bourgeoisie wanted titles as well...
And then, you can explain the 3 orders following St Augustin.
Capitalism: Wealth creating more wealth, according the definition from the "genius of Humanity" aka Google. or "Capitalism is an economic system based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit. Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system, and competitive markets." from the same.
Private property in Medieval Ages: Not really. The 100 years war started because a king confiscated the land of his vassal. In the Tsarist Russia, the Emperor (Autocrat) owned all the lands and lands were redistributed in the Mir System/Obshchina until the Revolution. Even in UK today, (but I might be mistaken) the land still belongs to the Queen who rents it to you for building your house or cultivate it (The Crown is the ultimate owner of all land in England and Wales (including the Isles of Scilly): all other owners hold an estate in land).
A NO is not enough, you have to give your definition of it. Market did exist before capitalism, whatever your exchange system was, cocoa (Inca), rice (Japan), sea-shells (Kingdom of Kongo). And we can debate if the Empire of China was capitalist: the government was bureaucratic and absolutist, order and subordination, so was India and the Caste system.
And as a probable player of Shogun, you are aware of what was the economical system, warriors (and honor) at the top, and merchants at the very low level. Far from Capitalism indeed.
I think you mix-up market economy and capitalism.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It grew by more than expected because of the sudden drop in the pound post-Brexit that really helped.

That's partially true,but it's also true that the feared sudden flight of investment failed to materialise.

what's more, it illustrates the upside to a devalued currency, especially when that currency is as overvalued as the Pound was

[Papewaio]

I doubt the internationals will move HQs until the details of the Brexit are decided. It is what happens after the details are sorted that will be interesting. London will no longer be an EU city and if the rules require an EU HQ it will see capital moved around... maybe Dublin will be the new financial powerhouse.

[Sarmatian]

I doubt the internationals will move HQs until the details of the Brexit are decided. It is what happens after the details are sorted that will be interesting. London will no longer be an EU city and if the rules require an EU HQ it will see capital moved around... maybe Dublin will be the new financial powerhouse.

If they move out of London, Frankfurt is a safer bet.

[Gilrandir]

The 100 years war started because a king confiscated the land of his vassal.

You should read a little bit more on the causes of the said war. I recommend Jonathan Sumption's "Hundred Years war". Four volumes have been published, but the causes are dwelt upon in Volume I.

In the Tsarist Russia, the Emperor (Autocrat) owned all the lands and lands were redistributed in the Mir System/Obshchina until the Revolution.

Your statement is not accurate.
1. It totally omits landowners (pomeshchiki) who owned most of arable land.
2. The Mir system is about distributing lands OWNED ONLY BY PEASANTS whose lands were significantly smaller (than the pomeshchikis' ones) and of worse quality.
3. The Mir system started to deteriorate by 1905 and was demolished not in 1917 but by Stolypin's reforms prior to WWI.
4. I'm not sure that the Emperor was the owner of ALL lands of the Empire. It was not true of medieval countries (and Russia was one until at least 1861, and perhaps even until 1917) where the monarch was just one of the landowners.

[rory_20_uk]

I doubt the internationals will move HQs until the details of the Brexit are decided. It is what happens after the details are sorted that will be interesting. London will no longer be an EU city and if the rules require an EU HQ it will see capital moved around... maybe Dublin will be the new financial powerhouse.

In the Pharmaceutical industry, a articular role has to be in Europe. Yet many have their HQ in Switzerland. They just have this role in a different office.

So, regarding the HQ, they could easily just designate a different branch the EU HQ and that's that. It is what trade has to be physically undertaken in the EU HQ and not routed there from somewhere else that will be interesting - VPN from London.

[Brenus]

"You should read a little bit more on the causes of the said war. I recommend Jonathan Sumption's "Hundred Years war". Four volumes have been published, but the causes are dwelt upon in Volume I."
It might surprise you, but the best books about 100 years war are French.
But to answer your smart remark, I was showing a cause relevant to the debate... Can't really see the importance of the death all the heirs of the French King as relevant...
For English, I recommend:
http://xenophongroup.com/montjoie/hy...tm#preliminary summary
Or for TV show, if you prefer:
https://youtu.be/mQbdN-JCMbk
The 1973 version was much better with the superb interpretation of Robert d'Artois by Jean Piat.

"I'm not sure that the Emperor was the owner of ALL lands of the Empire." Well, I think he was. He could take back any title and any lands attached to the title.

"Your statement is not accurate." Don't care. The purpose was to prove that it was not capitalism. Partially accurate is enough for the purpose.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/mir-Russian-community
Apparently, Encyclopedia Britanica disagree with you...

[Gilrandir]

"You should read a little bit more on the causes of the said war. I recommend Jonathan Sumption's "Hundred Years war". Four volumes have been published, but the causes are dwelt upon in Volume I."
It might surprise you, but the best books about 100 years war are French.

It is a judgement-based claim of a person who is as much competent in the War in question as in the differences between a language and a dialect.

But to answer your smart remark, I was showing a cause relevant to the debate... Can't really see the importance of the death all the heirs of the French King as relevant...

Neither this nor "confiscation of the land by the king" is a cause. A marxist like you claim you are should know the difference between a cause and a pretext (aka casus belli). Otherwise you would say that the cause of WWI was the Sarajevo assassination.

"I'm not sure that the Emperor was the owner of ALL lands of the Empire." Well, I think he was. He could take back any title and any lands attached to the title.

In this case the judge is the owner of EVERYTHING since he can take anything from a person by the court's decision. The ability to decide doesn't make anyone the owner (unless he proclaims the estates his property after the decision).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/mir-Russian-community
Apparently, Encyclopedia Britanica disagree with you...

I didn't see anything in Britannica that is contrary to what I said. Unless it is the conclusion on how viable the Mir was. And I based my judgement (besides the previous knowlege) on this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obshchina
in which:
The institution was effectively destroyed by the Stolypin agrarian reforms (1906–1914), the Russian Revolution and subsequent collectivization of the USSR.

"Your statement is not accurate." Don't care. The purpose was to prove that it was not capitalism. Partially accurate is enough for the purpose.

I'm glad you admit it. Yet if I said something like "partially accurate" about my claims, I would earn a ton of contempt (and a hundredweight of insults) from you, now wouldn't I?

[Sarmatian]

Brexit will require a parliament vote \

A blow for the PM who insisted that government doesn't need parliament's consent.

Since the majority of MPs are against Brexit, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Brexit will require a parliament vote \

A blow for the PM who insisted that government doesn't need parliament's consent.

Since the majority of MPs are against Brexit, it will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Take a brave MP to vote for party preference against the will of their borough on this one. Though, some of the Boroughs may well have shifted a bit since the vote...

[Beskar]

Looks like the Pound grew stronger too with this outcome.

[Pannonian]

Take a brave MP to vote for party preference against the will of their borough on this one. Though, some of the Boroughs may well have shifted a bit since the vote...

The advisory body (Parliament) will ratify whatever the executive (Cabinet) decide on. The executive will decide on something that they can sell as Brexit, then use that cover to shift funding and focus from the regions to London. After the referendum, the government assured the regions that they would not lose out as a result of Brexit, but the biggest funding decision made since the referendum is London-centric. The negotiations with the EU will be centred on making sure that the City of London does not lose out. And further infrastructural plans will centre on making London work better, London, which was heavily pro-Remain, will have the softest landing from Brexit. The regions, which were pro_Leave, will take the hit. The EU won't be there to ensure they get their share of funding. The UK government will do what any UK government does, which is to focus on London at the expense of everything else.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The advisory body (Parliament) will ratify whatever the executive (Cabinet) decide on. The executive will decide on something that they can sell as Brexit, then use that cover to shift funding and focus from the regions to London. After the referendum, the government assured the regions that they would not lose out as a result of Brexit, but the biggest funding decision made since the referendum is London-centric. The negotiations with the EU will be centred on making sure that the City of London does not lose out. And further infrastructural plans will centre on making London work better, London, which was heavily pro-Remain, will have the softest landing from Brexit. The regions, which were pro_Leave, will take the hit. The EU won't be there to ensure they get their share of funding. The UK government will do what any UK government does, which is to focus on London at the expense of everything else.

You've hit on the London-centric theme a couple of times now, and I see how you believe it would play out here to further the "goal" of brexit (at least after the fashion of "paying off" the London Boroughs to accept it whilst the less populated but geographically broader hinterlands receive less). And your argument seems to make sense to me on a political level -- it very much ties in with my assessment of the limitations of democratic-republican government.

As I recall, however, NI and Alba were nearly as solid in support of the "NO" vote as was greater London. Yet if it plays out as you suggest, would that not end up encouraging/reinvigorating the independency movements in Ulster and Scotland? After all, they would not get the "payoff" London would receive under your formula.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The advisory body (Parliament) will ratify whatever the executive (Cabinet) decide on. The executive will decide on something that they can sell as Brexit, then use that cover to shift funding and focus from the regions to London. After the referendum, the government assured the regions that they would not lose out as a result of Brexit, but the biggest funding decision made since the referendum is London-centric. The negotiations with the EU will be centred on making sure that the City of London does not lose out. And further infrastructural plans will centre on making London work better, London, which was heavily pro-Remain, will have the softest landing from Brexit. The regions, which were pro_Leave, will take the hit. The EU won't be there to ensure they get their share of funding. The UK government will do what any UK government does, which is to focus on London at the expense of everything else.

Excuse me, I threw up in my mouth a bit at this-but I have been drinking.

If the MP's try to stop Brexit they just make Brexit, a nastier Brexit, more likely a decade from now. We're only having Brexit now because the Lisbon Treaty was forced on us, to double down on the same stupidity is to further erode trust in British politics.

Of course, there will be some Eurocrats relieved by this - the more ineffectual the British are as a "political body" the harder it is for them to stand in the way of EU integration.

It's important to understand that, up to now, the pound has been over-valued vs the UK economy (which is why we cannot export) and London is laundering everyone else's money. Brexit would have hurt London in the long term and benefited the UK's manufacturing sector (by re-aligning our currency with the actual strength of our economy). It says a lot that it was Hedge Fund managers with no actual vested interest in the UK who brought this case.

The ruling is also nonsense - Parliament will demand to know the negotiating terms before agreeing to triggering article 50, but the EU won't even discuss negotiation until the article is triggered.

So, now we have a REAL Constitutional crisis instead of an imagined one looming. Great fucking job, guys.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Excuse me, I threw up in my mouth a bit at this.....

We call that "baby barfing" on this side of the pond. Thought you'd enjoy the alliteration.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

We call that "baby barfing" on this side of the pond. Thought you'd enjoy the alliteration.

Yes, very Anglo-Saxon.

fun fact: I fitted my new RX480 whilst tipsy - seems fine so far.