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Thread: Brexit Thread

  1. #1291
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    He's in politics. In every other area of life, one's performance is judged by objective metrics.
    Not really. Like there are some sports (gymnastics, highboard jumping, synchronized swimming, callisthenics) where the winner is often chosen very arbitrarily. The same can be said of music contests, beauty pageants, nobel prize.... Subjectivity rules.

  2. #1292
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Not really. Like there are some sports (gymnastics, highboard jumping, synchronized swimming, callisthenics) where the winner is often chosen very arbitrarily. The same can be said of music contests, beauty pageants, nobel prize.... Subjectivity rules.
    Gymnasts, athletes, etc. don't govern me, nor do they allow the government free rein to govern me. All I want is an opposition party I can vote for. My standards are set so low that I'd have been content even with an opposition party that will campaign for a position that they said they'd campaign for. Instead, the Labour party campaigns for a position that's the opposite of what they'd promised in the last election, simply because that's the position the leader takes. And all evidence of his incompetence and duplicity is dismissed by his supporters because they have the conclusion that he is their man, and all evidence contrary to that is inadmissible. See Littlegrizzly's assertion in this thread that just because someone has worked with Corbyn for decades, doesn't mean he is an authority on the man's workings. Or another assertion in the dedicated thread that people who've worked with Corbyn are too close to the subject to be free from bias, and thus their accounts are also to be dismissed.

  3. #1293
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Gymnasts, athletes, etc. don't govern me, nor do they allow the government free rein to govern me.
    You claimed existence of objective metrics IN ALL SPHERES OF LIFE except politics. I pointed to the fact that subjectivity is much more ubiquitous than you believe.

    But as for politics, it is ultimately the voters who decide whether a politician or a party should have the power. If you are not satisfied with any of them, you have only two choices - to abstain (until you find the one you like) or set up your own party and promote it to the top.

  4. #1294
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You claimed existence of objective metrics IN ALL SPHERES OF LIFE except politics. I pointed to the fact that subjectivity is much more ubiquitous than you believe.

    But as for politics, it is ultimately the voters who decide whether a politician or a party should have the power. If you are not satisfied with any of them, you have only two choices - to abstain (until you find the one you like) or set up your own party and promote it to the top.
    I guess England will be a one party state for the foreseeable future then.

  5. #1295
    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I guess England will be a one party state for the foreseeable future then.
    The biggest party is Labour. It is just the members prefer a circular firing squad and dreams rather than distasteful reality.

    I hope we see a resurgence of the Whigs since both Labour and UKIP have served their stated reasons for creation and need to disband.

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  6. #1296
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    I guess England will be a one party state for the foreseeable future then.
    You mean the party you are going to found?

  7. #1297
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    You mean the party you are going to found?
    Pointless continuing when a poster turns facetious.

  8. #1298
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Pointless continuing when a poster turns facetious.
    Never stopped being that.

    On a seriuos note, you are selling doom and gloom. The parties the UK is blessed with will yet continue bickering for the votes for years to come without count.
    Last edited by Gilrandir; 03-07-2017 at 15:14.

  9. #1299
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Never stopped being that.

    On a seriuos note, you are selling doom and gloom. The parties the UK is blessed with will yet continue bickering for the votes for years to come without count.
    The British governing system is supposed to operate with a government and an opposition, with the latter holding the former to account. The latter does not exist in any effective form, but the latter's election system ensures that no change will occur, as evidence does not factor into their decisionmaking (see my complaints about post-truth politics and the self-contained circle). Which means a governing party with no restrictions on what they want to do. The checks and balances in British democracy have been institutionally taken away. Hell, even Tories are of the opinion that Britain would be better off with a more effective Labour party, something which never happen due to its current constitution.

    As an example of this, past PMs have taken up the slack in arguing the case against a hard Brexit which the government is bent on, something which the official Opposition should have been doing as part of its job. In response, the Labour leadership has criticised Blair for sticking his oar in. There is no effective official Opposition. The Labour leadership is intent only on maintaining its control of its own party. The combination of post-truth politics and Labour's constitution means it will be able to do this without external factors (such as election results, cf. Copeland) being able to affect things.

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  10. #1300
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The British governing system is supposed to operate with a government and an opposition, with the latter holding the former to account. The latter does not exist in any effective form, but the latter's election system ensures that no change will occur, as evidence does not factor into their decisionmaking (see my complaints about post-truth politics and the self-contained circle). Which means a governing party with no restrictions on what they want to do. The checks and balances in British democracy have been institutionally taken away. Hell, even Tories are of the opinion that Britain would be better off with a more effective Labour party, something which never happen due to its current constitution.

    As an example of this, past PMs have taken up the slack in arguing the case against a hard Brexit which the government is bent on, something which the official Opposition should have been doing as part of its job. In response, the Labour leadership has criticised Blair for sticking his oar in. There is no effective official Opposition. The Labour leadership is intent only on maintaining its control of its own party. The combination of post-truth politics and Labour's constitution means it will be able to do this without external factors (such as election results, cf. Copeland) being able to affect things.
    Don't worry. The opposition and the government will yet find a bone to pick with each other as soon as the next election looms ahead.

  11. #1301
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilrandir View Post
    Don't worry. The opposition and the government will yet find a bone to pick with each other as soon as the next election looms ahead.
    Check out the Labour leadership and their histories. Diehard Tories are gleeful at Labour's state of affairs, while anyone with any sense of balance despair. There is no effective opposition, and there can be no effective opposition. And Labour's constitution ensures there will be no change.

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    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Check out the Labour leadership and their histories. Diehard Tories are gleeful at Labour's state of affairs, while anyone with any sense of balance despair. There is no effective opposition, and there can be no effective opposition. And Labour's constitution ensures there will be no change.

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    Last edited by Beskar; 03-08-2017 at 23:05.
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  13. #1303
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Beskar, what do you think of your MP's claim that the Copeland result was an "incredible result" for Labour?

  14. #1304
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    Beskar, what do you think of your MP's claim that the Copeland result was an "incredible result" for Labour?


    Her point is valid in the context that the polls nationally put Conservatives in a significant lead over Labour, so the fact they were only 2000 votes behind, proportionally, wasn't bad. However, the fact Copeland has been Labour owned for so long, even it was rather neck-neck last election, shows that the campaigning was left to be desired considering the clusterduck which has been occurring nationally by the Conservatives.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I do have some private opinions of Cat Smith from around 10-9 years ago, but people change in that time. I know for myself I have changed a lot in my real life situation over the last 3 years so would be unfair to compare her current situation as being similar to back then. But for the sake of getting asked repeatedly, I will give some details.

    Cat Smith was very ideological driven, but she has her heart in the right place. She cares and wants to do the right thing, she would be at the front of the parade demanding equal rights, she would promise reform such as the night-bus for women, etc (when LUSU Woman's Officer), and she would deliver on this. She is someone who would do the job and get her hands dirty. However, sometimes the ideological beliefs would interfere and can make her slightly unapproachable/off-putting. An example was when I held this heavy door open when walking through it, she made a point of standing absolutely still, refusing to walk through. This could be more one of those radical feminist moments, but it amused me the way we compromised was that she went first through the doors. I am sure Cat has become a lot more moderate since, because as an MP, I would probably expect a lot of people open doors for her because of her 'rank'. I also had an ideological falling out with her, as LUSU was reforming its Sabbatical Officers to remove the Woman's Officer role. I argued whilst there was an need for a Welfare/Liberation style role, I didn't see the need for it to be a woman. The actual proposal that went through was a mandated man and woman role, which was rather terrible anyway. But Cat did see it as a betrayal/unimpressed that I voiced my view on that, instead of supporting her position as were kind of friends. On balance, those moments were a minority and are part of growing up. What I would expect of her, ie: fighting and supporting the area like an MP does, she does seem to deliver on this, and have a passion in the area. She isn't someone who goes off to Westminster and forgets all about the area.
    .
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-09-2017 at 16:41.
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  15. #1305
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post


    Her point is valid in the context that the polls nationally put Conservatives in a significant lead over Labour, so the fact they were only 2000 votes behind, proportionally, wasn't bad. However, the fact Copeland has been Labour owned for so long, even it was rather neck-neck last election, shows that the campaigning was left to be desired considering the clusterduck which has been occurring nationally by the Conservatives.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I do have some private opinions of Cat Smith from around 10-9 years ago, but people change in that time. I know for myself I have changed a lot in my real life situation over the last 3 years so would be unfair to compare her current situation as being similar to back then. But for the sake of getting asked repeatedly, I will give some details.

    Cat Smith was very ideological driven, but she has her heart in the right place. She cares and wants to do the right thing, she would be at the front of the parade demanding equal rights, she would promise reform such as the night-bus for women, etc (when LUSU Woman's Officer), and she would deliver on this. She is someone who would do the job and get her hands dirty. However, sometimes the ideological beliefs would interfere and can make her slightly unapproachable/off-putting. An example was when I held this heavy door open when walking through it, she made a point of standing absolutely still, refusing to walk through. This could be more one of those radical feminist moments, but it amused me the way we compromised was that she went first through the doors. I am sure Cat has become a lot more moderate since, because as an MP, I would probably expect a lot of people open doors for her because of her 'rank'. I also had an ideological falling out with her, as LUSU was reforming its Sabbatical Officers to remove the Woman's Officer role. I argued whilst there was an need for a Welfare/Liberation style role, I didn't see the need for it to be a woman. The actual proposal that went through was a mandated man and woman role, which was rather terrible anyway. But Cat did see it as a betrayal/unimpressed that I voiced my view on that, instead of supporting her position as were kind of friends. On balance, those moments were a minority and are part of growing up. What I would expect of her, ie: fighting and supporting the area like an MP does, she does seem to deliver on this, and have a passion in the area. She isn't someone who goes off to Westminster and forgets all about the area.
    .
    Just because it was neck and neck in the last election doesn't mean it was irrevocably going to be even more in the Tories' favour in this, even if we ignore the fact that sitting governments very, very rarely take seats from the opposition (the last time was in the 1980s when the SDP split the vote, and other than that was several decades before that). The chief spokesperson for Momentum, James Schneider, campaigned for the Tories against the Labour candidate in his constituency, with the Labour candidate winning by a few hundred votes (closer than Copeland in the last election). This Labour candidate, now the sitting MP, increased his majority in the last election, with Schneider again campaigning for someone else. So just because Copeland was a narrow victory for Labour in 2015 doesn't mean it was an incredible result for Labour to lose by just 2000 votes in 2017. The above constituency was an even narrower victory for Labour in 2010, partly due to the likes of Tory now Momentum James Schneider, but Labour managed to increase their majority in a subsequent election.

    Also, what do you think of the assertion from Copeland campaigners that the most frequently mentioned negative that came up was Corbyn?

  16. #1306
    Formerly Wigferth Ironwall Senior Member Philippus Flavius Homovallumus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post


    Her point is valid in the context that the polls nationally put Conservatives in a significant lead over Labour, so the fact they were only 2000 votes behind, proportionally, wasn't bad. However, the fact Copeland has been Labour owned for so long, even it was rather neck-neck last election, shows that the campaigning was left to be desired considering the clusterduck which has been occurring nationally by the Conservatives.


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I do have some private opinions of Cat Smith from around 10-9 years ago, but people change in that time. I know for myself I have changed a lot in my real life situation over the last 3 years so would be unfair to compare her current situation as being similar to back then. But for the sake of getting asked repeatedly, I will give some details.

    Cat Smith was very ideological driven, but she has her heart in the right place. She cares and wants to do the right thing, she would be at the front of the parade demanding equal rights, she would promise reform such as the night-bus for women, etc (when LUSU Woman's Officer), and she would deliver on this. She is someone who would do the job and get her hands dirty. However, sometimes the ideological beliefs would interfere and can make her slightly unapproachable/off-putting. An example was when I held this heavy door open when walking through it, she made a point of standing absolutely still, refusing to walk through. This could be more one of those radical feminist moments, but it amused me the way we compromised was that she went first through the doors. I am sure Cat has become a lot more moderate since, because as an MP, I would probably expect a lot of people open doors for her because of her 'rank'. I also had an ideological falling out with her, as LUSU was reforming its Sabbatical Officers to remove the Woman's Officer role. I argued whilst there was an need for a Welfare/Liberation style role, I didn't see the need for it to be a woman. The actual proposal that went through was a mandated man and woman role, which was rather terrible anyway. But Cat did see it as a betrayal/unimpressed that I voiced my view on that, instead of supporting her position as were kind of friends. On balance, those moments were a minority and are part of growing up. What I would expect of her, ie: fighting and supporting the area like an MP does, she does seem to deliver on this, and have a passion in the area. She isn't someone who goes off to Westminster and forgets all about the area.
    .
    I'm sorry, but I think she sounds dreadful. If you were holding a door for her which you had already passed through then her refusal to pass the portal is just rude. It's not like you're going ahead of her and holding the door open whilst she passes through it, is it?

    Reminds me of a funny conversation I had about the existential crisis this causes for many men with a friend (who is a female lawyer from the US and handles workplace harassment cases) and her response ultimately was "what did you mother teach you?"

    Hold the door.

    We have a "welfare" officer here but no "Equality" officer. https://www.exeterguild.org/sabbs/ One must note that the current bunch of jokers all appear to be Middle Class men, which is interesting.

    Regardless, losing a seat to a sitting party that has been in government for six years and presided over cuts and a chronic deficit is an unmitigated disaster.
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  17. #1307
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    I'm sorry, but I think she sounds dreadful. If you were holding a door for her which you had already passed through then her refusal to pass the portal is just rude. It's not like you're going ahead of her and holding the door open whilst she passes through it, is it?
    For my usual door-holding habits, I simply hold the door till the next person takes it off me, which they usually do. I never run ahead, open a door, and wait for everyone to pass through as a makeshift doorman or butler. Only time I have held the door is when I am with someone else, and I am waiting for them to leave, but they had to quickly go back for a bag or similar.

    It is pretty simple. You walk up to the door, you push it open, you keep your left/right hand upon it for the brief second the person behind you puts their hand on the door, and you let go. This isn't something I discriminate between the sexes other. It is simply to prevent the door slamming back into peoples faces due to fire-door suspension and similar.

    I think it was my bewildered look at Cat which made her reply "Alright, I am going through, but I am opening up the next two", but it was one of a few similar experiences I have had at Lancaster University. It might have been a trend going around at the same time?

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    Hold the door.
    Hodor?
    Last edited by Beskar; 03-09-2017 at 21:47.
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  18. #1308
    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Labour wants Labour to lose.

    https://youtu.be/r1cCgOwMeQs
    Last edited by Brenus; 03-10-2017 at 07:15.
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  19. #1309
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenus View Post
    Labour wants Labour to lose.

    https://youtu.be/r1cCgOwMeQs
    Posted that earlier. Labour wants Labour to lose, to lose Corbyn.
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    Posted that earlier. Labour wants Labour to lose, to lose Corbyn.
    So.....

    Labour's love's lost?
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  21. #1311
    Like the Parthian Boot Member Elmetiacos's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    The biggest party is Labour. It is just the members prefer a circular firing squad and dreams rather than distasteful reality.

    I hope we see a resurgence of the Whigs since both Labour and UKIP have served their stated reasons for creation and need to disband.

    All the political parties are now Whigs.
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  22. #1312
    The Red Titled Forum Administrator Beskar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    When reading this, I imagined @Pannonian was writing most of these tweets.
    https://twitter.com/i/moments/841985570427478016

    The cringe and desperation as Corbyn fails to deliver, again.
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  23. #1313
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Beskar View Post
    When reading this, I imagined @Pannonian was writing most of these tweets.
    https://twitter.com/i/moments/841985570427478016

    The cringe and desperation as Corbyn fails to deliver, again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pannonian View Post
    The British governing system is supposed to operate with a government and an opposition, with the latter holding the former to account. The latter does not exist in any effective form, but the latter's election system ensures that no change will occur, as evidence does not factor into their decisionmaking (see my complaints about post-truth politics and the self-contained circle). Which means a governing party with no restrictions on what they want to do. The checks and balances in British democracy have been institutionally taken away. Hell, even Tories are of the opinion that Britain would be better off with a more effective Labour party, something which never happen due to its current constitution.
    Faced with backtracking on a budget a week after it was released, May had it so easy, she even took time to remind Corbyn he was supposed to ask questions for her to try and answer. Do Corbyn's supporters still maintain that he is competent for the job of Leader of the Opposition?

  24. #1314
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    On the topic of the Brexit, it looks like the Nexit is not next: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...195346496.html

    The Netherlands' main exit poll suggests Prime Minister Mark Rutte has won the Dutch elections, easily beating anti-Islam firebrand Geert Wilders.

    For the two-time Prime Minister Rutte, the poll indicated an economic recovery and his hardline handling of a diplomatic dispute with Turkey over the past week had won him support.

    The Ipsos polling company gave Rutte's party 31 of the 150 seats in the lower house of parliament, compared to 19 seats for Wilders' PVV.
    Not a final poll, but I assume we can assume that the final result will not switch their positions or so.
    Last edited by Husar; 03-16-2017 at 01:49.


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  25. #1315
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    On the topic of the Brexit, it looks like the Nexit is not next: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/0...195346496.html



    Not a final poll, but I assume we can assume that the final result will not switch their positions or so.
    Will Frag be moving to the UK, given his enthusiasm for EUxits and his happiness that Britain got its Brexit?

  26. #1316
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Wilders was doomed when every other party made a pact against him, still it didnt stop his party gaining 5 seats while the winning VVD lost 8 and Labour crashed and burned by losing 29. Puts him in the position to become leader of the opposition, or the dutch equivalent anyway.

    Better hope the VVD can turn things around in it's 3+ party coalition.
    Last edited by Greyblades; 03-16-2017 at 09:07.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  27. #1317
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyblades View Post
    Wilders was doomed when every other party made a pact against him, still it didnt stop his party gaining 5 seats while the winning VVD lost 8 and Labour crashed and burned by losing 29. Puts him in the position to become leader of the opposition, or the dutch equivalent anyway.

    Better hope the VVD can turn things around in it's 3+ party coalition.
    Why?
    Essentially you're saying the government lost 37 seats and the vast majority of those voters did not go to Wilders, who only gained 4 seats of those 37. If we're to believe the article, the idea of Wilders even motivated a lot of people to go and vote against him. The VVD doesn't have to turn anything around as long as Wilders cannot find partners for a coalition or get 50% of the vote himself. Maybe the next government would just include the VVD as a junior partner with a completely different party taking the main stage. That party may prove itself in the upcoming coalition if they can find one.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

  28. #1318
    Member Member Greyblades's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    I do not imagine for a second that the people's distaste for wilders will outweight the dismay of the top 3-4 alternatives continuing the political direction that resulted in the gutting of the dutch labour party.

    Wilders is where UKIP was in 2015, if his main appeal is not usurped by a more competent party or made irrelevant by a radical change in situation his party will keep growing until he has the majority.
    Being better than the worst does not inherently make you good. But being better than the rest lets you brag.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    Don't be scared that you don't freak out. Be scared when you don't care about freaking out
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  29. #1319
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out

    A new referendum is imminent?
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-39422747

  30. #1320
    Senior Member Senior Member Idaho's Avatar
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    Default Re: UK referendum: Out



    Can't get it to show... Ignore.
    Last edited by Idaho; 03-30-2017 at 15:39.
    "The republicans will draft your kids, poison the air and water, take away your social security and burn down black churches if elected." Gawain of Orkney

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