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Thread: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

  1. #61

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency
    No. Islamism is modern and progressive. It believes that Islam in its religious institutions and its spiritual principles must permeate political organization and action, among other things. Do not refer to it in terms of Church and State; both are only a subset of Islamic life.
    I feel this is a strawman. How exactly are you addressing what I said about Islamism not being inherent all over? Again, there are a handful of societies that are over this "promise." You're saying that Islamism is what people ultimately aspire to. If I'm being pedantic, your claims are way too broad. I don't disagree with your comparison to the effects of Marxism, but you're presenting a narrow view pitting Islamism with a western alternative when the alternative already exists in that world.
    Quote Originally Posted by PFH
    This fundamentally different to Western governments which are primarily concerned with the maintenance of peace and prosperity. The reason for this is that Western governments are necessarily transient they will be voted out of office, usually in a decade or less.
    Still, this presents its own problems as elected western officials have little experience in foreign policy as opposed to the lifelong middle eastern presidents who have shown better compliance to international laws and peaceful complacency. Adventurist attitudes and impulsive actions have not made things better.
    Quote Originally Posted by PFH
    The reality is that we don't want Tyrants, we want Democratic governments we can partner with, governments that are also more concerned with maintaining peace and prosperity than holding on to power.
    Again, this does not show in the policies chosen so far. It's one way of looking at it through some constructivist lens. The west often endorses torture methods by these regimes by sending terrorists there to carry out methods that are illegal in the west, constantly fund the Islamism they are supposed to be combatting, and break bread with dictators. I find it mind-boggling that nobody here wants to admit that western policy conflicts with the liberal vision they're supposed to encompass.

    Agree to disagree at this point. There's some whitewashing here as if the west safeguards international laws and doesn't regularly violate them.
    Quote Originally Posted by PFH
    Behold - the reason we don't always support democracy in the Middle East, apathy. Not malice.
    That was directed at him personally. Not all people from the west.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-25-2016 at 00:17.

  2. #62
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Philippus Flavius Homovallumus View Post
    You're right, Germany and Japan don't deserve democracy - neither does the Arab world. Today, now more than ever, states have tools that allow them to suppress their own populace so long as they have a few men willing to operate them. Today dictators have air forces, to defeat them you need one of your own Air Force. It's not like outside help for rebels is a new thing.
    You missed out the all-important first step before we established Germany and Japan as working liberal democracies. As a preliminary step to refashioning them in our image, we first obliterated them. We left them with no working society whatsoever, on the brink of starvation unless they took whatever we offered them, political as well as economical. And they starved at first as well, hammering home the lesson that they're dead unless they followed whatever we dictated to them. Then we rebuilt them from ground up, knocking aside anything we didn't like.

    Are you willing to do that with any of the Arab states?

    If rebels can't topple dictators who have air forces, why is it any problem of mine?

  3. #63
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Again, this does not show in the policies chosen so far. It's one way of looking at it through some constructivist lens. The west often endorses torture methods by these regimes by sending terrorists there to carry out methods that are illegal in the west, constantly fund the Islamism they are supposed to be combatting, and break bread with dictators. I find it mind-boggling that nobody here wants to admit that western policy conflicts with the liberal vision they're supposed to encompass.
    I have no problems admitting that western policy conflicts with the liberal vision that we're supposed to encompass. I also have no problems with the self determination and mind your own business doctrine that's often thrown back at us. So my solution, bearing everything in mind, is to respect liberalism and self determination. I want a liberal democracy in the UK and the west, which we're used to. But since the Muslim world isn't used to liberal democracies, they can have whatever the hell they want, as is their right in the principle of self determination. And equally inherent in the principle of self determination is our right not to have anything to do with them. We shouldn't meddle in their affairs, and that is their right, and they shouldn't meddle in our affairs, and that is our right. And in enforcing our right, we shouldn't accept anyone moving from Muslim countries. They don't have the right to move here; it is a privilege which we can grant as we wish, and we can equally withhold it as is our right.

  4. #64

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    I feel this is a strawman. How exactly are you addressing what I said about Islamism not being inherent all over? Again, there are a handful of societies that are over this "promise." You're saying that Islamism is what people ultimately aspire to. If I'm being pedantic, your claims are way too broad. I don't disagree with your comparison to the effects of Marxism, but you're presenting a narrow view pitting Islamism with a western alternative when the alternative already exists in that world.
    I'm trying to peg "Islamism" more precisely, really. There have been discussions (as here) of the need or possibility of Reformation within Islam. Islam has been in a (very roughly analogous) state to Christian Reformation for generations now, and the various Islamists movements are what largely make it up.
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  5. #65
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Sometimes reformations don't always turn out the way you want them.

    The sensible thing to do is support and arm the strongman. Democratic movements in the near east end up in hilarious Islamism 9/10 times. Rebels demand support and then complain when the support is not total and unquestioning.

    The near east simply doesn't have the base of liberals to make supporting democracy a worthwhile endeavor. Why should the west empower them with the vote when it will just allow them to martial more resources against us?
    Last edited by Strike For The South; 07-25-2016 at 03:16.
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  6. #66

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    They already are arming the strongman. Not where it’s needed of course. The west is equally obsessed with the middle east as it is with failing in it. Democratic movements in the near east end up badly because the west chooses to arm Islamists that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar think they can buy off enough to be moderate. Westerners go with that solution because radicals have a higher success rate (ie Iraq, Lebanon) while democratic movements are easily put down.

    Everybody know the west either cow tows for oil money and basing deals or forfeit their gains over Islamists while funding them in a never-ending circle jerk. There's no actual commitment to democracy from western leadership.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-25-2016 at 03:57.

  7. #67
    Old Town Road Senior Member Strike For The South's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    They already are arming the strongman. Not where it’s needed of course. The west is equally obsessed with the middle east as it is with failing in it. Democratic movements in the near east end up badly because the west chooses to arm Islamists that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar think they can buy off enough to be moderate. Westerners go with that solution because radicals have a higher success rate (ie Iraq, Lebanon) while democratic movements are easily put down.

    Everybody know the west either cow tows for oil money and basing deals or forfeit their gains over Islamists while funding them in a never-ending circle jerk. There's no actual commitment to democracy from western leadership.
    What would actual commitment look like to you? If actual commitment ended up with Islamists in power, why should the west bother helping?
    There, but for the grace of God, goes John Bradford

    My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom.

    I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine. It is only those who have neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, for vengeance, for desolation.

  8. #68
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    They already are arming the strongman. Not where it’s needed of course. The west is equally obsessed with the middle east as it is with failing in it. Democratic movements in the near east end up badly because the west chooses to arm Islamists that Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Qatar think they can buy off enough to be moderate. Westerners go with that solution because radicals have a higher success rate (ie Iraq, Lebanon) while democratic movements are easily put down.

    Everybody know the west either cow tows for oil money and basing deals or forfeit their gains over Islamists while funding them in a never-ending circle jerk. There's no actual commitment to democracy from western leadership.
    Unfortunately that's because democracy in the middle east does not have checks and balances and usually ends up being the feared tyranny of the majority. I look at what's happening in Turkey right now and that's exactly what it's steering toward too. Yes, he's the elected leader but he'll use that majority support to make himself president for life if possible.

    As for your earlier points on it not being a party we were invited to that's a yes and no truth. The West has been intricately tied into the middle east since Ottoman Empire started to weaken. That's when the French reserved the right over the Russians to be the guardians of christians in Lebanon and Syria and so on. Once we broke the Ottoman Empire apart the West has never really left. The Arab infighting led to colonialism instead of tolerating anarchy in syria and mesopotamia, we've been closely involved ever since. While yes, we weren't specially invited to this fight in Syria by their government we have always had an interest in what happens there and will probably continue to try and get 'our' side whatever that is into power.

    I actually wish we would fight IS proper and go in on the ground in a big way before handing it back to Syria/Iraq/Kurdistan or perhaps carving out a Sunni Arab Republic(liberal dictatorship) of Upper Mesopotamia or something. But seeing as we are mostly just in the air we will continue to have all problems of differentiating between IS targets or civilians when relying on local intel, aerial imagery and very very limited SOF as forward observers.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  9. #69

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Strike For The South View Post
    What would actual commitment look like to you? If actual commitment ended up with Islamists in power, why should the west bother helping?
    Actual commitment would have been staying in Iraq and not leave it to the local scavengers Iran and Saudi.

    Islamists come to power in failed states. There are more stable states that can be pressured but there is a lack of commitment due to economic interests. If the west can't help, it shouldn't bother. It's funny because everyone would be better off this way, yet here we are.
    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla
    As for your earlier points on it not being a party we were invited to that's a yes and no truth. The West has been intricately tied into the middle east since Ottoman Empire started to weaken. That's when the French reserved the right over the Russians to be the guardians of christians in Lebanon and Syria and so on. Once we broke the Ottoman Empire apart the West has never really left. The Arab infighting led to colonialism instead of tolerating anarchy in syria and mesopotamia, we've been closely involved ever since. While yes, we weren't specially invited to this fight in Syria by their government we have always had an interest in what happens there and will probably continue to try and get 'our' side whatever that is into power.
    So there's no need to obey UN charters? For historical reasons?
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-25-2016 at 07:42.

  10. #70

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Islamists come to power in failed states.
    This is a myth, and it threads throughout the various causal and conceptual confusions.

    Islamists have the most difficult time in "failed states" - which is why IS has surprised so many. IS wants to build its own institutions, rather than relying on existing ones as Islamists have historically done.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
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  11. #71

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    This is a myth, and it threads throughout the various causal and conceptual confusions.

    Islamists have the most difficult time in "failed states" - which is why IS has surprised so many. IS wants to build its own institutions, rather than relying on existing ones as Islamists have historically done.
    No, they really have a more difficult time in stable countries. It's pretty clear they thrive in failed states.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-25-2016 at 09:22.

  12. #72

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    No, they really have a more difficult time in stable countries. It's pretty clear they thrive in failed states.
    No. First, failed states, failing states, and unstable states are not all the same thing.

    You should really consider who thrives where, and what it means for a street gang to thrive in the looting as opposed to a governing ideology or organization. One thing that might help is to notice that if Islamist groups are more likely to produce combatants in times of outright conflict, then that does not mean they are thriving at that time or that they were not thriving before the conflict.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


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  13. #73
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Actual commitment would have been staying in Iraq and not leave it to the local scavengers Iran and Saudi.

    So there's no need to obey UN charters? For historical reasons?
    I agree 100% we should have stayed there. The way each administration can change our foreign policy and how we treat or stand by 'allies' is a major weakness with our government. Having served there and heard from friends there now the state its in is really disheartening for the waste of lives on all sides. Especially when guys like al Sadr still want to kill us in the minor role we're playing now.

    As you said if the west can't help it shouldn't but it certainly can help. The major problem and weakness though is that no western country has the will to go all the way and help. Libyan anarchy could have been avoided and the dilemma in Syria should have ended years ago but the half measures applied to look like something is being done instead of bold, dangerous, and expensive action isn't done. That said, Islamists also come to power in in non-failed states. They may be lighter on the stoning of women etc.. but that doesn't mean that isn't their end game.


    UN charters are of course useful but power always wins out as you well know. China is building islands because it knows the UN has no fangs to stop it. Russia doing it's power plays in the Ukraine and Crimea. Unfortunately the rules often don't apply to the big powers so in crucial areas like Syria the big powers will continue to play games. Russia won't be stopped and neither will the US. Doesn't make it right but wishing the world otherwise won't stop it either.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  14. #74
    Member Member Gilrandir's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar View Post
    Heresy!

    In German we also call the Belgian city of Liège Lüttich, even though it's not hard to say Liège.
    Proper names are a story apart so it is gonna be a long lecture. To avoid it in a few words:

    Toponyms are not neccessarily borrowed from a source language - they may have their counterparts in the target language - especially in places with ethnically/linguistically mixed background (Wroclaw vs Breslau, Lemberg vs Lviv, Danzig vs Gdansk).
    Quote Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
    The article exists for a reason yes, I did not write it...

  15. #75

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency View Post
    No. First, failed states, failing states, and unstable states are not all the same thing.

    You should really consider who thrives where, and what it means for a street gang to thrive in the looting as opposed to a governing ideology or organization. One thing that might help is to notice that if Islamist groups are more likely to produce combatants in times of outright conflict, then that does not mean they are thriving at that time or that they were not thriving before the conflict.
    This is a weird argument to make. They are imprisoned or put to death in virtually every other non-Islamist country. In unstable environments they get the opportunity to have a steady income from foreign benefactors, have their ranks gain experience, and carry out illegal operations since they don't have to worry about legitimacy yet. They also have an easier time governing because of the tribal politics and patronage systems they excel at.

    Chaos creates space for Islamists. They may come to power on other occasions but it's obvious where they undergo rapid growth. AQ in Yemen, for example, have come a long way and are the second most powerful now.
    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla
    Unfortunately the rules often don't apply to the big powers so in crucial areas like Syria the big powers will continue to play games. Russia won't be stopped and neither will the US. Doesn't make it right but wishing the world otherwise won't stop it either.
    Russia is there legally. The US has made too many (illegal) mistakes to be compared to Russia in the middle east.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-25-2016 at 19:30.

  16. #76
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Russia is there legally. The US has made too many (illegal) mistakes to be compared to Russia in the middle east.
    Although it is not in the open I'm sure there is back door agreement with the Syrian government allowing the coalition to bomb ISIS in their territory. The US has been coordinating their strikes with the Russians since the middle of last year.

    Because of the all the bluster by Obama against Assad and his government there is no way that his administration could in the open work with the 'evil regime' against ISIS. I'm sure that the Syrian government will continue to allow/tolerate so long as the US never actually enforces any sort of no fly zone against them.

    The US can be compared the Russia though in regards to Syria and Iraq, yes the US has made far more mistakes. For the greater region though, Russia/USSR and the PRC too has made no shortage of mistakes; usually in the supplying 'friendly' rebels to whatever cause with far too many AKs and RPGs making rebellion a little too easy for any slightly weak government which certainly aided the Islamist movements. Just look at Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Somalia/Eritrea, and of course Africa too.
    It's one of the reason I'm for arming the Kurds but not the FSA. Our pro-democratic rebels always lose in every civil war in Africa, Middle East, or South America. They just lack the brutality that marxist/maoist and islamist rebels can and will impose on civilians that win wars against governments.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  17. #77

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Chaos creates space for Islamists. They may come to power on other occasions but it's obvious where they undergo rapid growth. AQ in Yemen, for example, have come a long way and are the second most powerful now.
    This isn't the correct causal chain. Islamists thrive until harshly targeted by military leaderships, which is only a short-lived arrangement at best. Where central governments collapse outright, violent Islamists can simply hope to emerge as the largest and most cohesive groups in the territory. Notably, this hasn't worked out well in Libya. In Afghanistan, the Taliban could achieve some kind of hegemony and thus stability, but Libya is so large and full of competing powers that no single group can take over. Libya is currently a great place for hiding out, training, and black market enterprise, but not at all if you're hoping to govern land and people.

    Al Qaeda is doing rather poorly in Yemen this year. They miscalculated in a big way there. There are indeed a number of small-time Islamists groups still making a piece of the pie for themselves. Nevertheless, Al Qaeda won't see much of it. I would also point out that Al Qaeda only achieved the (anachronistic) prominence you have in mind while there was not such "chaos".
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  18. #78

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by spmetla
    Although it is not in the open I'm sure there is back door agreement with the Syrian government allowing the coalition to bomb ISIS in their territory. The US has been coordinating their strikes with the Russians since the middle of last year.
    There is no political or security cooperation with the Syrian government. Backdoor agreements are of course necessary to prevent confrontation.
    The US can be compared the Russia though in regards to Syria and Iraq, yes the US has made far more mistakes. For the greater region though, Russia/USSR and the PRC too has made no shortage of mistakes; usually in the supplying 'friendly' rebels to whatever cause with far too many AKs and RPGs making rebellion a little too easy for any slightly weak government which certainly aided the Islamist movements. Just look at Afghanistan, Yemen, Lebanon, Somalia/Eritrea, and of course Africa too.
    Who has destroyed three separate Arab states to the point of no recovery? Not Russia. There's a difference between arming rebels and destroying a country's infrastructure through airstrikes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Montmorency
    This isn't the correct causal chain. Islamists thrive until harshly targeted by military leaderships, which is only a short-lived arrangement at best. Where central governments collapse outright, violent Islamists can simply hope to emerge as the largest and most cohesive groups in the territory.
    It sounds like you're repeating what I'm saying. They're able to function in places like Libya where in less hopeless countries they are imprisoned, executed, or deported. Their parties can be shut down by despots easily, this has happened a lot this year. I admit I can't keep up, don't understand what you're saying half the time. My English isn't that good.
    Al Qaeda is doing rather poorly in Yemen this year. They miscalculated in a big way there. There are indeed a number of small-time Islamists groups still making a piece of the pie for themselves. Nevertheless, Al Qaeda won't see much of it. I would also point out that Al Qaeda only achieved the (anachronistic) prominence you have in mind while there was not such "chaos".
    You know I'm referring to AQAP. Why do they have their moments? Because of Yemeni factionalism and interventions that had targeted their enemies.
    Last edited by AE Bravo; 07-26-2016 at 20:49.

  19. #79
    Coffee farmer extraordinaire Member spmetla's Avatar
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    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Quote Originally Posted by Showtime View Post
    Who has destroyed three separate Arab states to the point of no recovery? Not Russia. There's a difference between arming rebels and destroying a country's infrastructure through airstrikes.
    No argument from me on these points. I will caveat that with Libya the US administration actually intended to just sit it out and watch but Sarkozy essentially forced NATO into by striking the Libyan army on the march east. Syria and especially Iraq have been colossal mistakes in intent and then follow up.

    "Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
    -Abraham Lincoln


    Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
    Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
    Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
    Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
    Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.

  20. #80

    Default Re: US Air Strike Kills 85 Civilians

    Nice piece on the Afghanistan theater from the US Army War College, August 1: The Mysterious Case of the Vanishing Taliban

    2015 was a bad year for the Afghan National Security Forces. They ended the Western calendar year badly battered, like a punch-drunk prize fighter on the ropes. At least 5,500 of them died in 2015, the worst annual casualty toll since American involvement in Afghanistan’s civil war began in 2001. By the end of Western calendar year 2015, the 215 Corps based in Helmand had virtually disintegrated, with perhaps only 35 percent of its table of organization and equipment strength still present and able to fight.1 For comparison, U.S. Army doctrine considers an infantry unit to be “combat ineffective” if it suffers 30 percent casualties. Continuing the steady 12-year long pattern, about 35 percent of the Afghan Army and the Afghan Police deserted in 2015. “Ghost policemen” and “ghost soldiers” were reported by Afghan officials with credible accounts suggesting as many as 3 policemen out of every 10 now receiving pay (from U.S. taxpayers) do not actually exist, or are no longer alive. The ANA’s 10,000 commandos, who are good solid troops, were literally exhausted from being shuttled from one firefight to another all over Afghanistan, often pausing between battles just long enough to throw some more ammunition onto the helicopters.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Taliban captured four districts in Helmand province in 2015, two districts in Badakshan and, spectacularly, the city of Kunduz, one of Afghanistan’s largest urban centers. In the first phase of the Battle of Kunduz, which apparently started as a prison break, fewer than 500 Taliban troops routed some 4,000 Afghan security forces, who mostly fled the city without firing a shot. They kept running until they reached a hilltop fort outside Kunduz where a small detachment of a dozen or so U.S. Special Forces Soldiers were calmly preparing for a repeat of the Alamo. Eventually, after more than two weeks and the U.S. bombing of the Doctors without Borders hospital in Kunduz which resulted in the killing of 42 staff members and patients, the visible Taliban presence was driven back out of the city. By early 2016, the situation appeared so bleak that Nicholas Haysom, the Secretary-General's Special Representative and head of the normally upbeat UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan (UNAMA), predicted that “For 2016, survival [of the Afghan government] will be an achievement.”2

    For Western analysts, the outlook for 2016 was indeed grim. The intelligence community expected the Taliban to come out of its corner for this round of the fighting after January and February swinging from the heels. Predictions outlined by the Director of National Intelligence in his annual testimony to Congress called for a repeat of 2015 only worse; an acceleration of the Taliban’s momentum from 2015 which would not give Afghan security forces breathing space to rest, reequip, and replace losses with troops transferred from less hard-hit areas. In short, analysts feared the worst. They expected exactly what well-led American troops would do in this situation — that the Taliban would keep up the pressure, be aggressive, continue attacking, and keep the opposing fighter back on his heels and on the ropes until he inevitably went down for the count.

    It didn’t happen. For the first four peak fighting months of 2016, the Taliban mysteriously more or less went to ground. In June, Afghanistan’s TOLO News reported that insurgent attacks dropped 17 percent lower than in May.3 This may have been partly due to the Muslim fasting month of Ramadan occurring during most of June, but no drop of comparable size in insurgent attacks occurred during Ramadan in 2015.

    We know Taliban military leaders are familiar with Mao Tse Tung’s famous treatise on guerilla warfare. Translated copies of it have been found in cave complexes and abandoned camps in Afghanistan for many years, as well as a lot of other Western literature on warfare and American military history. Indeed, the Taliban study American military history and American military thinking carefully. They occasionally make pronouncements on their website which reflect this historical knowledge. We don’t know, of course, whether they follow Mao’s advice on insurgency and guerilla warfare to any degree, because we lack that kind of insight into their thinking and planning processes. However, Taliban activity so far this Western calendar year looks like a page taken straight from Mao’s treatise. In Maoist guerilla doctrine, guerilla forces in the initial stages of their military operations do what they can to harass their enemies — kidnappings, executions, bombings, and attacks on remote security outposts only when success is certain. When the Maoist guerilla movement transitions to the third stage, which is marked by the permanent formation of larger bodies of troops, the creation of permanent supply and training bases in secure territory, and the steady flow of new men and materiel into action, then Mao Tse Tung said guerillas will operate more like regular forces. That was what 2015 looked like in Afghanistan. However, Mao noted, if guerilla forces at this stage suffer a setback, they should revert back to the lower level of guerilla activity (the second stage) until conditions are favorable to progress again to the highest, or third, stage of guerilla operations.

    That is certainly what 2016 in Afghanistan looks like so far. The predicted mass attacks and major guerilla operations in Helmand, Kunduz and elsewhere — 2015 The Sequel — simply have not materialized. Instead, we have seen the sorts of things guerillas do when they are in stage one or stage two of an insurgency — stopping busses, kidnapping citizens, murdering men suspected of cooperating with the government, suicide bombings, and pinprick attacks on the most remote police outposts, many of which that were in rural Afghanistan were wisely withdrawn earlier this year. The Western year 2015 witnessed Taliban guerillas massing in units of a thousand men or more on numerous occasions. This year, they’re gone. The beleaguered Afghan security forces have had time to rest and regroup. The 215 Corps is being completely rebuilt during this lull in operations. The commandos, President Ghani’s firemen, have had time to rest, retrain, and assimilate new commando course graduates into their ranks. The miniscule Afghan National Air Force (the term the Afghans use to refer to it) has had breathing space to conduct overdue maintenance, obtain spare parts, repair aircraft, and train with the first of the new Super Tucanos (propeller driven flight trainers built by Embraer and adapted to a light ground support role). The underlying question in the Mystery of the Vanishing Taliban so far this year is: Why? [Mont: Interesting that the US has come to the point of buying Brazilian prop-driven planes for the Afghan air force - but why do they cost millions each? At this point, it might make more sense to start a production line of revamped All-American '50s props. Probably cheaper, probably more effective in operations, probably better for American defense contractors.]

    There are at least five possible explanations, some combination of which may or may not be true. The first possible explanation is the “Kunduz was the Taliban Tet” theory.
    During the 1968 Tet Offensive in Vietnam, similar to the Taliban takeover of Kunduz, Vietcong guerillas succeeded in surprising government security forces by briefly and spectacularly seizing a number of towns and parts of cities; Vietcong sappers got into the U.S. Embassy grounds in Saigon. Having been told for many years by endless Pentagon briefings that the Vietcong were a spent force, the civilian population of the United States was shocked by the Tet Offensive. The Vietcong won a major propaganda victory, largely convincing the American public that the Vietnam War could not be won. This propaganda success, however, came at a devastating cost for the Vietcong movement, which was almost wiped out by casualties and counterattacks as the U.S. and the South Vietnamese Army (ARVN) recovered their balance and struck back. Efforts to explain this to the public ran into the “Boy Crying Wolf” effect. Having been consistently misled by ecstatically optimistic U.S. Department of Defense press releases for years, anything the Pentagon now said was deeply suspect — another lesson unlearned from the Vietnam War. Producing a steady jet of wildly optimistic progress reports erodes your credibility and makes it less likely the public will believe you and trust you when you really need them to.

    In the case of the Vietcong, the reports of its devastation were true. After the 1968 Tet Offensive and even by the time of the U.S. withdrawal in 1972, the Vietcong were a pale shadow of their former organization, their ranks depleted by as much as 80 percent and their leadership decimated. Tet was a complete military disaster for the Vietcong, and a less corrupt, incompetent, illegitimate, and universally-reviled South Vietnamese government might have pulled victory from the jaws of defeat. Using this analogy, the “Kunduz was the Taliban Tet” theory of diminished Taliban activity in 2016 posits that Taliban military efforts in Kunduz and Helmand in 2015, while successful as propaganda, were terribly costly in casualties to the Taliban rank and file and seriously depleted the cadre of experienced mid-level Taliban military commanders, the Taliban equivalent of field grade officers.

    The Taliban are exceptionally good about policing up the battlefield before leaving it, so it is difficult to assess how many casualties they suffered in 2015. They almost always remove their dead and wounded, scrub signs of casualties as much as possible (e.g., covering up blood stains, bandages, and body parts) and even pickup their spent shell casings before pulling back. So this theory is hard to substantiate, but it does fit the facts and the apparently Maoist doctrinal approach seen so far this year. Arguing against this theory is the fact that the Taliban has an almost infinite number of replacements in Pakistan steeped in jihad and eager to join the fight in Afghanistan. The Taliban recruiting pool is indoctrinated and trained in hundreds of radical madrassas in the Federal Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) funded by the Pakistani Government. All Taliban field commanders are Mullahs (or the slightly higher title, often self-promoted, of Maulvis) and there is no shortage of religious leaders in Afghanistan, either. The pirimuridi system of training young men to be Mullahs essentially clones religious beliefs and codifies doctrinal behavior. It is therefore doubtful that in 2015 the Taliban incurred the same level of debilitating, irreplaceable casualties that the Vietcong suffered from Tet.

    The second possible explanation is the “Internal Political Problems” theory. The brilliant extermination of Taliban leader Mullah Mansour in Baluchistan via drone strike earlier this year threw the Taliban into its second leadership succession crisis in less than a year. Within two weeks, a religious pseudo-scholar (in academic terms, none of the Taliban leadership is anything more than a cloned ideologue with a very weak scholarly understanding of Islam) named Mullah Haibatullah Akhundzada emerged as an acceptable middle ground figurehead between the rival tribal factions of the jihadist organization. For the last 15 years a profound ignorance about the Taliban and a persistent anthropomorphic interpretation of it along Western cultural lines has knee-capped the fight against them. Even in 2016, organizations like the Office of the Special Representative to Afghanistan and Pakistan (SRAP) persist in conceptualizing the Taliban as some sort of European political movement with a Western military hierarchy. The problem with the “Internal Political Problems” theory is that this might be what would be happening if the Taliban were a Western organization and thought like Americans. Nothing could be further from the truth. The Taliban is a classic Islamic millenarian movement, the direct ideological descendant of the Hindustani Fanatics movement of the mid-1800’s in the Punjab and Hazara regions of what today is Pakistan. No matter how badly the State Department wants to shoehorn every actor on the world stage into the rational actor theory of human activity, the Taliban are decidedly Other. Taliban thinking, hierarchies, and lines of authority are utterly different from Western concepts of organizational theory. Mullah Omar and his successors were and are not, as most Western leaders continue to believe, some sort of World War II four-star General Eisenhower-style supreme military commander of the Taliban. This completely misunderstands militant millennial Islamic radicalism in Afghanistan and the culture of the Pashtun frontier, as I have written many times before over the past decade.4 The failure of Western analysts to discover that Mullah Omar was dead for two years, or to even guess the outcome of Mullah Mansour’s succession, illustrates clearly the extent to which the Taliban mindset remains opaque to Western understanding. So the “Internal Political Problems” theory might make sense if the Taliban were General Motors or the British Labour Party, but they are not. Using Western words and ideas to describe something so completely Other does not work well. But the Taliban are like a primordial grove of interconnected ancient trees which are at the root core the same organism and which have the same ideological DNA, but which grow independently and struggle for water and light with the other trees as well as with the other organisms in the ecosystem. You can chop down the central tree, the Mullah Omar or the Mullah Mansour tree, and this hurts the grove, but the organism soon regenerates a central tree and the root network remains deep and strong. The other trees continue to grow and do what they do because they are part of the entity, but they also continue their struggle for resources and even compete with one another. Overall Taliban military control remains largely in the hands of Haqqani Network scion Sirajjudin Haqqani. Furthermore, we have seen even less external evidence of discontent with Mullah Haibatullah Akhundzada‘s selection as Emir than was evident with Mullah Mansour’s earlier accession to power to replace Mullah Omar. This is in large part because Pakistan’s ISI was eager this time to avoid the unseemly strongman tactics that accompanied Mansour’s power grab and to make the selection of his successor more transparent to the Taliban Ulema via a process that seemed more inclusive and consensual.

    A third explanation is the “Orientalist Theory,” which holds that the Taliban was indeed part of the 200-year long, classic, cyclical repeating Northwest Frontier charismatic “Mad Mullah” phenomenon. This theory holds that the death of Mullah Omar will lead, as it always has in the past 200 years, to the gradual but steady decline of the movement, as the followers of the latest Mad Mullah drift away, are killed, or splinter into small, largely impotent sects. One could argue that the appearance of a so-called ISIL cell in eastern Afghanistan fits this pattern — its arrival and rise coincide with the death of Omar as the charismatic leader of the most recent iteration of the classic, repeating Mad Mullah movement. Certainly, the so-called ISIL or ISIS cell in Afghanistan has little or nothing to do with the terrorist quasi-state actor by that name in Iraq and Syria. None of its members speak anything but Pashto, few are from ethnic groups unknown in Nangarhar province, and most are disaffected former Taliban competing for smuggling routes and the concomitant monetary rewards which they bring in. The more money you have, the more fighters you can pay. Gulbuddin Hekmatyar’s (i.e., HiG’s) most recent break with the central Afghan Taliban organization and his predictably dead-end “negotiations” with the Ghani government may also fit this pattern. Time will tell if the historical pattern of jihad on the Northwest Frontier will hold true again this time — such an overall decline in the Taliban would take years to detect. More importantly, the kind of Islamic radicalism which the Taliban represents today is no longer the isolated disease organism that its predecessors represented a century or two ago. Global Islamic radicalism is an experiment which escaped the CIA laboratory in Afghanistan during its proxy war against the Soviet Union in the 1980’s, and it has metastasized into a sprawling, interconnected cancer with strong cells in almost every country across the Islamic world. The information age and social media have changed the battlefield, and this genie is not going back in the bottle any time soon. So the “Orientalist Theory” for explaining the Mystery of the Vanishing Taliban in 2016 is as unsatisfying as the “Internal Political Problems” theory, because it fails to take into account the evolved 21st century context of Islamic radicalism.

    A fourth possible explanation is the “Taliban as a Learning Organization” theory. If the Taliban senior leadership had attended the U.S. Army War College and learned the theory and practice of strategy, Kunduz would not have been captured in 2015, and Helmand would not have been a major battlefield. The United States and the rest of NATO were on a glide slope to a near-zero presence in the country, air assets were being withdrawn, and the Taliban were getting exactly what they wanted: The removal of foreign troops from Afghan soil. All they had to do was lay low for a year or two, play possum, make it appear that they were a spent force, and let the U.S. and the other small NATO-country contingents complete their withdrawals. After that, without U.S. advisors and airpower as an impediment, the Taliban could have resumed its offensive operations and taken over much of Afghanistan with relatively little opposition.

    Viewed from a Sun Tzu strategic standpoint, 2015 was a major strategic blunder. Its outcome was to effectively reverse President Obama’s timeline for troop withdrawal combined with the broad reauthorization of U.S. air strikes against Taliban targets in support of Afghan security forces. Some analysts believe that any amount of U.S. presence is not a significant factor in Taliban thinking. After all, they fought against U.S. forces all through the period of President Obama’s escalation of the war, when there were as many as 130,000 American troops and 260,000 American civilian logistics contractors in the country — almost 400,000 U.S. personnel in country by old Korean War standards of counting. The Taliban has been fighting for 14 years against the United States and the American-backed Kabul government, this analytical perspective points out, so it follows that the Taliban simply does not care if some American assets remain in support of the “puppet infidel regime” in Kabul. Jihad is jihad.

    Yet, the Taliban is without doubt a learning organization, at least at the tactical level of war, as anyone who was involved in the struggle to get ahead of the improvised explosive device (IED) threat in Afghanistan from 2004 to 2012 will attest.5 Reducing the IED threat was a fast-paced game of measures and countermeasures in which the Taliban figured out what American forces were doing to stop IED attacks and developed tragically effective responses at an astonishing rate. The ability of illiterate, sandal-wearing peasants to intuit intricate technological capabilities and defeat them with duct tape and car parts created a grudging respect among most Americans I knew in Afghanistan for the ingenuity and resourcefulness of men who could not write the numbers 1-10 on a piece of paper or tie shoelaces. After the earliest phase of the deadly IED chess game involving WWII-era pressure plate technology, the Taliban progressed to remote detonators. American analysts quickly realized the Taliban were using cell phones as detonators for homemade roadside bombs. When a U.S. vehicle convoy was in the blast radius of their bomb, Taliban observers would call the cellphone detonator attached to the roadside bomb. So American forces fielded simple vehicle-mounted cell phone jammers which blocked cell phone calls in the immediate vicinity of the convoy. That worked for a short time. Then, the Taliban deduced what was happening remarkably quickly and implemented a simple countermeasure — running 10 cents worth of monofilament wire from the bomb itself to a detached cellphone antenna 100 meters or so from the bomb and outside the jamming radius of the American jamming devices. Astute observers drew parallels to the underestimation of the Vietcong in Vietnam, where a network of listening posts and bicycle runners totally defeated the entire Arclight grid square-based strategic bombing effort.

    Thus, at least at the tactical level of war, the Taliban are clearly a learning organization and a fast-learning one at that. The explanation for the Mystery of the Vanishing Taliban could be that they learned from 2015 that it is better to wait the Americans out and encourage us to leave their country by their quiescence. I think however that this is unlikely. The evidence from the last 14 years indicates the “they just don’t care” argument has a lot of validity, and it is a year too late to be applying the lesson of 2015 in any case. Those horses are out of the barn and the decision to keep important American assets in Afghanistan for the foreseeable future has already been taken.

    A fifth hypothesis for explaining the Mystery of the Vanishing Taliban is the “One Damn Thing After Another Theory.”
    This suggests that in 2016 Taliban operations have thus far been hamstrung by, of all things, the calendar, combined with the execution of Mullah Mansour by drone in Baluchistan. According to this theory, the reduced level of major Taliban attacks in 2016 is a result, in sequence, first of the poppy harvest, which consumed March and part of April. This was followed by Mullah Mansour’s timely demise — not because of internal political problems, but for the more prosaic and somewhat comical reason that all senior Taliban men, one suspects, immediately put a great deal of distance between themselves and their previous cell phones and SIM cards (especially after an article in the Wall Street Journal unhelpfully explained to the Taliban in detail how Mansour was tracked and killed), and for several weeks, no Taliban commander in the field in Afghanistan knew any Pakistan-based Taliban leader’s new cell phone number(s). This simple lack of a phone book, the “One Damn Thing After Another Theory” posits, severely interrupted battlefield operations by disrupting operational communications. This temporary disruption was then followed by Ramadan, which as discussed earlier did not have a major effect on Taliban operations in 2015. For a variety of reasons involving Taliban command and control methodologies, this theory is not particularly strong either.

    That brings the mystery back to square one. Whatever the answer is to the puzzle of why the Taliban have been so relatively scarce and relatively quiet on the battlefield so far in 2016 compared to 2015, however, three things are certain: First, while the Taliban rarely make tactical mistakes, because they are hardened fighters with a lot of tactical experience, Taliban leadership does make strategic mistakes, and fairly often. They do not have a Command and Staff College or a War College. This could be capitalized on far more effectively than has been the case over the last 14 years.

    Second, whatever the reason is, it is not a reason or combination of reasons that Western military minds would develop if faced with an identical problem set. The Taliban simply do not think like we do. Any American who has ever had a conversation with an Afghan and thought they were going from Point A to Point B in the discussion and found themselves at Point Q instead understands this. Human information processing is not a universal, organic, mental sequence hardwired into the brain at birth. It is learned, and it is learned in a unique cultural environment. “Rational actor” (or “rational choice”) macroeconomic theory is wrong because everyone in the world does not think the same way and arrive at the same conclusions. Flying airliners into skyscrapers on September 11, 2001, should have been the expiration date of rational choice theory and the day this line of Western thinking was discarded into the dustbin of intellectual history. “Rational” is simply an academically-biased, orientalist meta-descriptor for the Enlightenment-based Western educational process and Western cultural values in decision-making.

    Third, and finally, wherever the Taliban are, whatever they are doing, they will be back, perhaps this week, perhaps next month, but if not this year then next year or the year after that. Because in their minds, God wills it, and you do not negotiate with the will of God.


    Not explored above is simply the possibility that the Taliban are satisfied with a long view (partly by Maoist terms) and do not feel the need to actively fight to militarily occupy all the territory, even if there will be opportunistic or strategic-propaganda offensives on a sporadic basis. A split-state plus persistent low-level conflict may just be what would lend the Taliban administration institutional strength and space to develop, while the Western-backed rump always needs to struggle just to avoid dying on the vine. Sort of like the situation with the FARC today, just inverted in some key respects (e.g. local penetration, geography occupied, relative demographic proportions, commercial links to region and world). Also, it's a good way to mitigate the odds of getting your clock cleaned all over again once Syria, Ukraine, etc. no longer require as much attention. Common 4X strategy.

    A complementary, more straightforward and immediate explanation could be that the ISIS franchise/splinter Taliban are causing too many problems for the core, and dealing with them is for the moment a higher priority than launching flashy offensives at the G-Men, who serve as a fixed quantity anyway.
    Vitiate Man.

    History repeats the old conceits
    The glib replies, the same defeats


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



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